Portland-Seattle shootout....

[Aquitaine]

Despite what I've read in the What's with this heat?!?!, Crap it's hot out there! thread, I remain firm in my determination to explore the Pacific Northwest as a viable residential choice. (Um, I'm thinking of moving out there from NYC, after way too many years of crush and noise; and a few too many weeks of slosh and gloom, weatherwise.... But it's truly sentimental; I'm following on the heels of my sister, who's moving to the Bellingham, WA area. And no, she doesn't know that much about it either: she's following her husband...)

SO....

Any idea where I start to compare Oregon/Washington? Looking for a manageable city with (needless to say) good access to food, including ethnic diversity, good access to outdoors (gardening, biking and hiking), good public transportation, liberal politics, reasonable cost of living. And while I can purchase a light box, I am subject to Seasonal Affective Disorder, so the more clear skies the better (although the weather certainly is a crap shoot these days, it seems). No kids. No limo or limelight...

Not so much concerned about good restaurants as good farmers markets and local purveyors....

1) If you had to, how would you describe the difference between Seattle and Portland?

2) Anyone know anything about Bellingham, Washington? Eugene or Salem, Oregon? Other decent-sized cities/towns that an ignorant East Coaster hasn't heard of?

3) Good resources always welcome....

4) Private Messages/e-mails also welcome....

...is this just the wrong forum for this topic????? Any suggestions where to turn, instead....

Take off in any direction you want....I've got a lot to learn! So if you just want to boast about your town, that's cool, too...

[inventolux]

I grew up in Ptld, and worked in a lot of the restaurants there. Some I worked in for free and some I was paid. I can tell you as far as food goes, its better in Ptld, than Seattle, simply because Ptld has more restaurants per capita in a city over 750k residents than any other city in the nation. Micro breweries are also a huge industy in Ptld. One of the worlds most technologically advanced wineries, Archery Summit (and also has the destinction of being a pioneer in biodynamic farming) is just 45 minutes outside of Ptld. Oregon in general is in a unique global position, Desert in central Or, ocean to the west, mountains to the north and south, and some of the worlds best fly fishing waters to the east. Few other states can make that statement. My personal favorite thing about Or and Ptld is the fact that after working 4 years at Charlie Trotter's and seeing just about every top producer of food products, Or has the highest concentration of everything from produce, seafood, meat and game, dairy products, and some pretty damn underrated wineries. Lets not forget when master burgundy winemaker Joseph Drouhin was looking to expand his winery empire, he chose Or because the environmental conditions are almost exact to Burgundy. Just for kicks, the only Wasabi producer outside of japan is in Hammond Or and no amount of scientists have been able to grow it anywhere else on the planet, at least not that I am aware of.

Gastronimically, Or has some of the most boutique restaurants I have seen in the US. One great example is Couvron in downtown Ptld, 22 seats, tasting menu only, beautiful wine list, always a great experience.

Edited June 10, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[Aquitaine]

thanks, inventolux.

I did have the impression that Oregon is extraordinary for the lushness of its climate, enabling so many producers to grow/create what typically is dispersed over the globe. I really like the idea of being that close to my food source... for both aesthetic and ecological reasons....

BTW, I've been wanting to try the fresh wasabi from Pacific Farms but can't justify ordering their minimum...Have you tried it?

And good luck with your new restaurant.... (I take it you moved to Chicago...or else have a heckuva commute!)

Edited June 10, 2003 by Aquitaine (log)

[inventolux]

Yes, the japanese have strict laws on the production of wasabi and arent able to improve the the plants intensity, In the US much like everything else, we can do whatever we want ant not only is it already better than Japan's, but it keeps getting better as the refine the process.

I love chicago and I would live in oregon but Oregonians arent ready for the food Im about to do.

Edited June 10, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[nightscotsman]

Although I am intimately familiar with both Portland (30 years) and Seattle (9 years), this is a very hard question to answer. But here's a shot:

Setting - Seattle has by far the more beautiful setting with the hills, Sound, lake and mountain views. The Seattle skyline is also more attractive, though individual buildings are mostly rather bland in architecture. It is much easier to get to the Pacific Coast and beaches from Portland than Seattle, But Seattle's proximity to Vancouver Canada and the San Juans is a big plus. Both cities have lots of biking and hiking opportunities. Also, both seem to get about equal amounts of sun and rain and are very moderate, though Portland tends to get hotter in the summer and colder in the winter (but NOTHING compared to the Midwest or east coast).

Food - my impression is that Seattle has more high-end, serious restaurants than Portland, but that Portland places tend to be more creative or playful. This may have something to do with the lower cost of overhead in Portland lowering barriers to entry. Portland also has easier access to U-pick produce and farm stands than Seattle. Seattle, on the other hand has better seafood.

Cost of living - Seattle is more expensive, especially housing.

Politics - both cities are very liberal. Portland is probably a little more liberal in some ways, leaning more toward the "hippie" than the corporate mentality. Seattle politics can be frustrating since the City Council members do not represent actual neighborhoods, so they tend to end up serving downtown developers and corporate interests (there is a movement to have this changed). And though the cities may be liberal, the surrounding suburbs and the rest of the state's counties tend to be socially conservative and resentful and this can leak into urban politics.

Public transportation is better in Portland, mostly due to the light rail which they started building many years ago. Seattle is supposed to begin building a light rail line soon, but it's looking like a pointless fiasco. The planned monorail line may be more successful, but both of these projects won't be completed for many years (if even in our lifetimes). Traffic in Seattle is regularly pointed to as some of the worst in the nation.

Overall Seattle is larger and has more of a "City" feeling (though coming from New York you may find that laughable) with more of the cultural amenites that one would expect in a city. Portland is smaller (the city blocks are physically smaller) and has a small city/large town feeling - more relaxed and less serious. Living in Seattle there are certainly things I missed about Portland. I will be moving to Chicago in a few weeks and I can tell you there are probably more things I will miss about Seattle. Just my personal feeling.

[Jim Dixon]

As any native Oregonian will tell you, Washington State isn't half as nice as Oregon, even though they think they're better.

Of course, Oregon's schools' woes are the subject of Doonesberry, the budget cuts that are cutting off the meds to the mentally ill (and resulting in more than a few suicides) are fodder for the New York Times, and the unemployment rate continues to lead the nation (go Oregon!).

But inventolux is right on about the food. Seattle may have the best public market, but ours would be better if we could ever get one built (if plans stay on track maybe by 2008). They've got those Safeco dogs and ballpark sushi, but our ineffectual mayor is working hard to lure the Expos to stumptown (because that $30 million we forked over to the Trailblazers for the Rose Garden is really paying off...especailly for those who want to find the real Rose Garden in Washington Park) and you know our stadium food would rock.

Jim

[Jim Dixon]

both seem to get about equal amounts of sun and rain

Come on...the annual rainfall may be close, but Seattle's winters are much more unrelentingly gray. (But will still seem like a tropical paradise after a winter in Chicago.)

I ride to work all winter, and I don't get soaked all that often.

Portland's got the coast range between us and the Pacific. Seattle gets those lovely maritime systems straight off the ocean thanks to Puget Sound.

Jim

[Schielke]

Oh yeah? Well my dad can beat up your dad!

[Jim Dixon]

just be careful when you come down here....

Jim

ps...after writing these, I realized I had betrayed the ghost of Gov. Tom 'visit-but-don't-stay' McCall. So let me correct a couple of things.

Portland sucks

Oregon is a cultural wasteland

Oregonians are backwater hicks

[nightscotsman]

Portland's got the coast range between us and the Pacific. Seattle gets those lovely maritime systems straight off the ocean thanks to Puget Sound.

You're forgetting the Olympic Mountains between Seattle and the coast. Similar effect. I stand by my earlier statement, though I'm one of those people who don't mind the gray, so I may not notice it as much as others.

[Schielke]

It rarely rains buckets in either city. It rains a little a lot.

Ben

[KNorthrup]

I've never lived in Seattle. I've been in Portland ten years and all AK before that. What I don't understand (and this isn't a criticism, just a puzzlement) is why so many people keep moving here these days while the unemployment is so incredibly high. A couple in my condo complex came up from San Francisco about nine months ago and finally gave up and sold and continued on to Seattle last month because neither could find work. That said, I just second what everyone else has already outlined.

Inventolux -- did you know Couvron has closed? They've moved to NYC. Or will by the end of the summer.

[LEdlund]

I have lived in the Seattle area most of my life (including three years in Bellingham). The only place I have lived outside of Washington is Salem, Oregon, where I spent two years in the late 80's. I have one word to say about Salem: Conservative. 'nuff said.

I agree with what everyone else has said about the comparisons between the two cities and would just want to reiterate what NSM about housing costs. They are outrageous in Seattle right now - I'm just glad I bought my house so many years ago, I wouldn't be able to afford it now! Some good friends of mine moved from Seattle to Portland a few years ago and were amazed at the difference in the price of houses!

I love the coast of Oregon, but I wouldn't give up our islands for anything.

[trillium]

Just a few more thoughts to add to the pile...

I never lived in Seattle, but a little town 45 minutes NE of it until I went to college. 5 years in SF, 8 in Chicago and 1 in Portland. Portland beats all others for public transportation hands down. It's not just the light rail, but all of the system. Clean, friendly drivers, on time for the most part and really affordable (bike racks on all the buses help too). FlexCar, a car sharing program that is just getting started in Seattle, is pretty well established in Portland and helps with car needs. The access to produce here is probably about equal with Seattle, but I think we get a better selection of high quality fruits. I'm not sure what nightscotsman means about the seafood being better in Seattle, whether this refers to restaurants or just availability. It might also just be a matter of taste. I rarely like a seafood restaurant more then what I can cook at home given the right ingredients, but where I've had the best seafood restaurant experience in the US is here in Portland. That being said, we don't eat out that much. The seafood you can buy here has been fantastic. I adore the fact that I can buy 3 doz oysters pulled from Yaquina bay that morning for $15 at the farmer's market. The crabs are the same here as in Seattle, this may be due to the fact that we always buy them live from Asian fishmongers. Portland needs a good fish store, but you can get almost anything you need if you're willing to talk to the fish buyers at New Seasons (the best grocery store ever). The food "scene" here is very friendly and creative, lots of people trying things out on their own. We even have some hipster SF refugees doing arty club/drink/food things. Housing is extremely affordable and can be very pleasant (wood floors, turn of the century buildings) or dreadful (carpeting from the 70's etc).

The worst thing about living in Portland for us is the lack of diversity and the fact that the city pretty much shuts down at 10-12 pm. Or as the partner likes to say, Portland is very diverse, you'll find every kind of white guy you can imagine here. It's not really quite that bad, but it does affect the food. I think Seattle has more diversity going on. We got really spoiled by the South Asian (Pakistani down to Kerala) goods and restaurants in Chicago. Nothing like that here. Not very good southern/soul either. The southeast asian ingredients are a little harder to track down here in Portland then in Seattle. I think the SE asian restaurants are about the same in quality. Same for "Chinese" (pretty much dreadful all around unless you get desperate in our not very humble opinion). Seattle has the advantage of being close to Vancouver for good dim sum and HK style food. I think if you had to choose between them, you'd want to weigh availability of nature (desert, mountains, ocean etc) and ease of living (cheaper!) vs. a similiar but more urban setting where you loose some of the ease and gain some of the city bustle.

regards,

trillium

[Aquitaine]

Hey, y'all (as they don't say in New York City).....Thanks for the great stuff. I shoulda opened this topic a while ago....

Key topic (provincial as it may sound) is weather: For one not blanketed in fog or mist, would you please explain this comment that Jim Dixon made:

Portland's got the coast range between us and the Pacific. Seattle gets those lovely maritime systems straight off the ocean thanks to Puget Sound.

Does that mean that anything between the coast and the mountain range is trapped in gloom? Or are there pockets without it? (Would my eyeglasses always be fogged up/misted over if I move to Seattle or Portland?)

Just what are we talking about in terms of housing costs for a one-bedroom in either city? (Sine qua non: decent part of town, near public transportation, not a dump.... Just so you know, things are nuts in NYC: Studios can rent for $1600 per month....but then, some people rent 6-room apartments for $1000 -- it's just a crazy situation in terms of real estate....)

But we DO have a GREAT farmers market...at Union Square, if anyone's visiting...we even get fresh cherries and apricots in the middle of the summer.... [Portland vs. Seattle farmers market comparison: or is that not fair? And does Pikes Peak count?]

How's bicycling in Seattle? I gather it's pretty cool-- accesible, safe-- in Portland (is that what you mean by "riding all winter," Jim?) And which is a better walking city...you can walk almost everywhere here in NYC, another great thing....

Oh, and I won't spread the good news about Portland, Jim. As you note, I was hesitant to open this topic in the first place for fear of enraging those who already have the good fortune to live in your neck of the woods and dread an influx....

[Aquitaine]

Trillium, I posted before I read yours...very helpful. Thanks.

Portland sounds like a stereotyped Toronto, or Switzerland?????? (Clean, safe, but.....boring??? Oh, just shoot me, if I'm being snotty. Just trying to understand....)

Now, for your comment, Trillium:

The worst thing about living in Portland for us is the lack of diversity and the fact that the city pretty much shuts down at 10-12 pm. Or as the partner likes to say, Portland is very diverse, you'll find every kind of white guy you can imagine here. It's not really quite that bad, but it does affect the food. I think Seattle has more diversity going on.

Anyone else on this????

Funny! But it's true that after living in New York City, when you go to other places that are more homogeneous in demographics (like the small university town I grew up in in New England, or even Providence, RI) it feels VERY odd. The density here in NYC is truly in your face, but the diversity certainly adds to the energy and interest level.... I think that would be tough to get used to. Other days I say, "bring on the quiet and civility!" It's just so hard here sometimes...unless you're young and/or have quite a bit of money.... Of course, I might die of shock if all the sales clerks wherever I move turn out to be courteous, or even friendly....

(BTW, if anyone plans on visiting NYC, I'd be happy to give suggestions about goood food sources...sorry, I can't help with restaurants, however....)

[Fish]

...

access to outdoors (gardening, biking and hiking)

...

I can't speak for Portland, but Seattle has some excellent biking, and assuming you're not too put off by a bit of rain, it's rideable all year round. We have some very nice trails, and the drivers aren't toooo dangerous. Also some excellent mountain biking, though I imagine Portland offers great access to that too.

As for the grey getting you down, my solution is to go somewhere sunny (preferably outside the US ) sometime between December and March. Makes all the difference.

- S

[Belmont3]

What about Boise?? #1 in the Nation for biking, ranked as one of the best places to live and move to in several national pubs, great tech base( HP, Micron, Crucial, Dell, Jabil) low living costs, major airport, great weather without the rain, major university, great downtown, scenic, not crowded and a great up and coming culinary area.

[guajolote]

It rarely rains buckets in either city.  It rains a little a lot.

Ben

Portland: 222 days of cloudy, 37" precipitation

Seattle :201 days of cloudy, 38" precipitation

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online...e/ccd/cldy.html

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online...d/nrmlprcp.html

Edited June 10, 2003 by guajolote (log)

[trillium]

Sometimes sales clerks will actually ask you how you are and mean it. They'll chat with the person in front of you while you stand there and try not to be huffy. Wait until you pass people on the sidewalk and they say "good morning" or "hello" or "thank you" from the back of the bus to the driver. Scared the hell out of me the first few times, but now I really like it.

I'm not sure I'd call it boring, but just that people get their entertainment in different ways (lots of breweries, bike/hike/bird watch groups, underground restaurants) that aren't tied to the latest and greatest "hotspot".

I don't know housing in Seattle anymore, but it depends on what you want here in Portland. A 1 bedroom can run from hmmm....400 - 800 depending on location. The 800 one would be pretty swank.

I haven't been to the Union Square market, but from what I can tell, we get comparable or better quality and selections (I found Damson plums here, someone in NYC couldn't at the Union market). I don't think it's entirely fair to judge produce against another region because the very fact it's in another region means that things will shine there that wouldn't here and vice versa. For example, the berries and stone fruits are to die for here. The tomatoes and corn and chilies just don't see the blistering heat that makes them out of this world like they are in the midwest.

For biking, I think Portland has the most bike lanes of any city. I think it got some award from a bike magazine or something, but I don't keep track.

As for the bustle vs. ease, that's a really personal decision I think. Both have merits. Me personally, I'm enjoying the break from big city life and I nearly swoon every time a heron flies by my living room window. But I do miss 3 am runs to the Pakastani restaurant that stays open all night.

regards,

trillium

[LEdlund]

More on weather. I'm know Jim Dixon will disagree, but the weather is really comparable between the two cities. During the two years I lived in Salem, I worked in Portland and spoke to family and friends in Seattle nearly daily. There was never a big difference in the weather. When I talk to my friends that live in Portland now there is never a big difference in the weather.

You will need to expect more gray days than you are probably used to. You've heard the phrase "scattered sun breaks"? That applies to us (Seattle and Portland).

You mentioned Eugene......I believe their weather is better. My sister-in-law and her family live there and it sounds more.....warmer than here. Plus you have the liberal politics, culture (it's a college town) and some great markets. I haven't spent a lot of time there, but have enjoyed it when I have.

[nightscotsman]

Key topic (provincial as it may sound) is weather: For one not blanketed in fog or mist, would you please explain this comment that Jim Dixon made:

Portland's got the coast range between us and the Pacific. Seattle gets those lovely maritime systems straight off the ocean thanks to Puget Sound.

Does that mean that anything between the coast and the mountain range is trapped in gloom? Or are there pockets without it? (Would my eyeglasses always be fogged up/misted over if I move to Seattle or Portland?)

Yes, both states feature lush, wet, rainforests on the ocean side of their coastal mountain ranges. But this means that rainfall is reduced in the areas inland from the mountians, becuase they fall in the "rain-shadow". People talk about all the rain in the Nortwest, but like schielke said - it doesn't rain buckets all winter here. more like intermittent drizzle for days or weeks broken up my some sun and blue sky. And summers can be gorgeous, but not sweltering and humid like NY.

Just what are we talking about in terms of housing costs for a one-bedroom in either city? (Sine qua non: decent part of town, near public transportation, not a dump.... Just so you know, things are nuts in NYC: Studios can rent for $1600 per month....but then, some people rent 6-room apartments for $1000 -- it's just a crazy situation in terms of real estate....)

Depending on the neighborhood, view, parking and size, a one bedroom in Seattle will run you between $700 - $1200. I plan on renting out my 2 bedroom condo (with a pool and parking on Capitol Hill) for $1200-$1300 starting in the middle of October (after a condo repair project is completed)

But we DO have a GREAT farmers market...at Union Square, if anyone's visiting...we even get fresh cherries and apricots in the middle of the summer.... [Portland vs. Seattle farmers market comparison: or is that not fair? And does Pikes Peak count?]

If you mean the Pike Place Market, yes it does count (and is great), but not terribly convenient if you don't live or work downtown. There are also smaller farmers markets in a few other neighborhoods in both cities during the summer.

How's bicycling in Seattle? I gather it's pretty cool-- accesible, safe-- in Portland (is that what you mean by "riding all winter," Jim?) And which is a better walking city...you can walk almost everywhere here in NYC, another great thing....

I think both cities are big on bicycling, though Seattle is very hilly (like San Francisco) making it more strenuous to get around. I also think both cities are good for walking, though mostly within discreet neighborhoods - you would probably want to bike or bus to an area and then walk around rather than walking from say Downtown Seattle to Freemont.

[Andrew Fenton]

The worst thing about living in Portland for us is the lack of diversity and the fact that the city pretty much shuts down at 10-12 pm. Or as the partner likes to say, Portland is very diverse, you'll find every kind of white guy you can imagine here. It's not really quite that bad, but it does affect the food. I think Seattle has more diversity going on.

Anyone else on this????

A Minnesotan friend of mine who moved to Portland moved back after a year because, compared to Minneapolis, Portland was "just too white."

[Schielke]

Seattle rent is not as bad as NY, but can raise some eyebrows. We are in a renter's market right now and Studios go for around 600-800 /mo, One BR for 700- 900/ mo, and Two BR for 900 - 1400.

Of course they can go higher, but those are the general rates for a decent place you could take your mother to.

Ben

[LEdlund]

The worst thing about living in Portland for us is... the fact that the city pretty much shuts down at 10-12 pm.

Seattle too