Cheesecake Factory- a few facts

[mcdowell]

What justifies the sense of superiority some people exhibit about their taste in food as compared to others'?

Nothing justifies it.

People who have passions become, well, passionate about them. The people on this board are passionate about what they put into their bodies in a very sensual way. It's about taste for the people here, and about expanding and sharing their knowledge around this most sensual of human needs.

Combining taste and knowledge often leads to arrogance. Add the relative anonymity of posting on-line, and you have an environment where people might speak out of turn, and say hurtful or intimidating things. It's a fact of life on the internet, and has been for the two decades I've been using it. Every forum suffers it.

The counter to it is not to fight it, but to ignore it. If somebody offends you by criticizing your taste, then rise above it, be secure in what you believe, and tell them to bugger off, you like the food at the Cheesecacke Factory. If it gets out of hand, then the moderators will step in and cut out the posts, as they recently did when some idiot posted that Cristal was being coopted by urban blacks (I don't really agree with cutting those posts - seems heavy handed way of enforcing decorum, but I don't pay to be here so selah and all that).

What I also see on threads like this one is someone who has "refined" tastes posting their opinion, and if it's counter to someone elses, that some else becomes insecure and defensive and starts claiming "elistism" and "snobbery" when, in fact, opinions were just being exchanged, nothing more. Not every opinion on taste (or sex, or politics, or religion, etc etc etc) reflects judgement against those who don't share it.

We're all adults here (I think ), so have some self-confidence in what you believe, and don't let yourself be intimidated.

For the arrogant and opinionated among us, before we step on someone else's tastes to harshly, we need to remember those days in college when, at 3am, the Waffle House was "the shit", and that somtimes it still is.

Done preaching.

[SobaAddict70]

I also agree with rdailey that the folks on eGullet can come off as elitist. It would be hard to participate in a forum such as this and not come off as elitist from time to time.

There's nothing wrong with being elitist. In certain areas, I'm certainly elitist. I relish my elitism. And mustard it too.

Pointing out the elitism, however, isn't a good debate tactic. It takes the discussion to a personal level and serves only to put people on the defensive. That's not good for any of us.

I'm not sure why people seem to think we're elitist when reality is so far away from the truth. This is a common misperception which pops up from time to time. In fact, a close reading of various topics on the different fora would lead someone to conclude with just the opposite: that the site provides an umbrella to a variety of people with a broad and diverse range of interests, likes and dislikes.

If someone or a group of someones seems to think that we're elitist, or that a certain percentage of eGluttoneers are elitists/snobs/food groupies, hey, then more power to them....but it's not our fault, and I see no reason to defend ourselves for something that's really someone else's projection(s).

Soba

Edited July 17, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[slkinsey]

The point is, who are you or anyone else to judge the level or quality of another's interest in food and appropriateness of commenting on this board?

i'm still looking for examples of where someone suggested anything like this.

I don't think you'll find any. What you will find are many examples of people bristling because they think they are being "talked down to" or that their choices are being denigrated by people who express opinions or preferences contrary to their own.

I don't think there is anything wrong with talking about chain restaurants. And I can imagine circumstances in which I might eat at one -- perhaps even regularly. But, to me, the crux of the matter is this: I don't generally hear anyone arguing that the food served in these places is atually good. There are plenty of other reasons people may go to them (convenience, children, live in suburban Ohio and there are no other choices, whatever) -- but none of these reasons has to do with the high quality of the food. And, for me personally, I don't think there is a lot of value in of talking about food that isn't very good. This is not necessarily an issue of "high food" versus "middle food" versus "low food" because most everyone here admires a well-made hamburger as much as the next person, if not more. It is simply an issue of the food at Chili's et al. not being exceptional in any way.

OK... maybe you can go to Bennigan's and get a perfectly reasonable chicken sandwich. Cool! I'm sure you can, and who doesn't like a chicken sandwich every so often? But I don't think anyone would describe Bennigan's chicken sandwich as an example of a really first-rate chicken sandwich, or that it would be worth the trip out to Bennigan's to sample their exceptional chicken sandwich. So, while I don't think there is anything wrong about popping out to Bennigan's for a chicken sandwich every so often, I don't think there's a great deal of value in talking about their acceptable but otherwise mediocre example. That said, I don't think people who eat and appreciate the chicken sandwich for what it is should feel that "chicken sandwich afficionados" who don't think the Bennigan's chicken sandwich is any great shakes are condescending to them. And, really, I have yet to hear one person say that a chain restaurant makes a really great... well... anything. At least McDonald's makes really great frites (or used to, anyway).

Not that any of the above should be construed as a call to censor or limit discussion here about any kind of food or eating establishment. I think people should talk about whatever they want to talk about, so long as it is around the topic of food (not that anyone is asking my opinion or should care either way). I just don't see the point of talking about food that everyone seems to agree is so-so at best. I'd rather talk about good food. I think this feeling is shared by the majority of posters here, and so it is perhaps possible that a lack of enthusiasm for talking about these things makes people think they are being told that their "level or quality of interest in food is not appropriate for commenting on this board." I don't think people are saying "this is not appropriate for this board." What I think people are saying is that "if you post ABC on a board that is designed to foster discussion among people with an interest in XYZ, don't be surprized if you don't get the reaction you were looking for." If someone can make the case for chain food and not for the convenience or whatever else of chain restaurants I, for one, think it could be very interesting.

[MatthewB]

. . . and I see no reason to defend ourselves for something that's really someone else's projection(s).

Gosh, it might not be about the "other" person after all?

[slkinsey]

What I have a problem with, are condecending posts that basically tell people that if your tastes or knowledge are not up to a certain level than you have no business commenting on this board.

Please be so kind as to point one out.

Before you go digging, I would say that it does not seem entirely appropriate for someone without a strong interest in quality food and cooking to comment on a board which is dedicated to those same subjects.

It seems like it's suggested here, unless I'm misinterpreting it.

Perhaps I should clarify. I do not think that a well-made hamburger or tuna sandwich is incongruous with "quality food and cooking." I guess what I am saying is that it seems a little silly for someone who really doesn't care that much about the food they eat to post to a discussion board that caters to people who care greatly about the food they eat.

Edited July 17, 2003 by slkinsey (log)

[SobaAddict70]

So, for instance, because I don't feel it necessary to whip up exotic things for dinner every night (see the Dinner! thread), I don't deserve to input on topics I have an opinion on?

I have a "strong interest" in quality food, but quality food is such a grey area to me. 

Perhaps this site is too over my head.

Kate, Kate, Kate...

The Dinner thread is what it is. Not all of us whip up rarefied things every night, me being one of the biggest violators. (Broiled skinless chicken breasts anyone? ) Some of us are more creative than others -- thank god. And I, for one, happen to take extreme pleasure in reading what the most creative among us, happen to whip up every evening. If you happen to take a look at what torakris posts for example, you know she cooks for a family of at least 4, on a limited budget.

The thread is what we've made of it. It's all good. I'd be interested, for one, to read what you cook for dinner on any night.

Don't believe the critic behind the curtain.

Soba

[hjshorter]

certainly the site is very dynamic, and even though one may not feel comfortable talking about how much they love Kendall Jackson chardonnay on the wine board, they might certainly feel comfortable posting on something like the Dinner thread, regardless of what they prepared for dinner.

It isn't about "fancy" all the time. I have posted on the dinner thread when all I made was hot dogs and beans, or grilled burgers.

What irks me about CF isn't the food, which is competent, and actually a step above some "neighborhood" places we've been to. I object to the hype.

[KateW]

I do care about what I eat. I eat what I'm in the mood for. If I didn't care, I would eat something I don't want, or don't like. Usually, your body tells you what your body wants or needs in the form of cravings, and I listen to that. If that means having tuna sandwiches for lunch, I'm not going to deny it and say no, I have to mix up something creative instead, and in the end I'm still craving the tuna sandwich.

[KateW]

[

The thread is what we've made of it.  It's all good.  I'd be interested, for one, to read what you cook for dinner on any night. 

Last night I bought some frozen fried fish, crab cakes and tater tots and cooked those for my boyfriend. Pan fried a swordfish steak for the first time for myself. It came out alright but a little dry.

Tonight I'm making Chicken Helper.

[SobaAddict70]

Tonight I'm making Chicken Helper.

Sorry the swordfish didn't come out to your expectations. Maybe next time.

What's chicken helper? (It's probably like hamburger helper, right? I've never had either.)

slkinsey: Amen, brother.

Soba

[tommy]

The opera-and-Pearl-Jam analogy is very telling about the persepctive of the person who drew the analogy. The analogy is inapt. I wouldn't post about Pearl Jam on a board about opera, but I certainly would do so on a board about music. This is a board about food, all kinds of food.

you're right. it wasn't a very good analogy. however, perhaps my 11000+ posts are more telling about my "perspective." and you still haven't pointed out any examples of someone telling someone that they shouldn't post on a topic.

btw, people who post about the artistic genius of *nsync on music boards are ripped apart. that's just the way it goes.

Edited July 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

[mcdowell]

people who post about the artistic genius of *nsync on music boards are ripped apart.  that's just the way it goes.

Or people who post about Bob Dylan & Neil Young on the "velvet throated vocalists" board...

[SobaAddict70]

Pity me then, Mr. T.

I'm still discovering Pink Floyd.

Soba

[KateW]

Yep, its like hamburger helper, which we have sometimes too, but the only kind of hamburger helper I really like at all is the lasagna one. I don't really like the chicken ones either, but the SO does, and I usually end up having a snack later to make up for it. Helpers are the one thing I eat that I don't particularly like.

[slkinsey]

I do care about what I eat.  I eat what I'm in the mood for.  If I didn't care, I would eat something I don't want, or don't like.  Usually, your body tells you what your body wants or needs in the form of cravings, and I listen to that.  If that means having tuna sandwiches for lunch, I'm not going to deny it and say no, I have to mix up something creative instead, and in the end I'm still craving the tuna sandwich.

A few things before I sign off:

- I don't think anyone is suggesing that your contributions are inappropriate or unappreciated.

- Presumably you have an interest in eating a good tuna sandwich. Furthermore, presumably you wouldn't feel like talking about the tuna sandwich served at Tuna Hut where you go every so often when you want a tuna sandwich if it was mediocre. If it was good or had other properties worth talking about, then why not talk about it? I don't think anyone would knowingly make you feel like you shouldn't.

I have to say that I'm with Soba on this one. I think it is largely a case of people inferring slights where they are not implied.

[tommy]

i wouldn't go to board on Opera and post about how much i like Pearl Jam.  seems like a reasonable analogy.

Ok...but nowhere do I see anything about this being a fine food and dining site;

i wasn't suggesting that opera was "fine" and Pearl Jam was the music equivalent of junkfood. i was, however, suggesting that discussion of one wouldn't necessarily fit in with discussion on the other...just as i wouldn't spend a large percentage of my posts telling the world how much i like Big Macs. one must recognize and understand their audience.

[mcdowell]

Helpers are the one thing I eat that I don't particularly like.

Then why do it? Just say 'no' and cook something else.

It's about that easy.

[SobaAddict70]

Does he like sloppy joes? Do you?

The sloppy joe thread was one of our more popular ones.

Now I have a craving for one. See what you made me do.

(Just kidding. Although I still have a craving for one.)

Soba

[tommy]

Now I have a craving for one.  See what you made me do.   

(Just kidding.  Although I still have a craving for one.)

click me if you dare...

[slkinsey]

i wasn't suggesting that opera was "fine" and Pearl Jam was the music equivalent of junkfood.

OK, now see... I would totally suggest that. Heck, I'd outright say it. Pearl Jam is the musical equivalent of a really good guy at Burritoville as compared to Rossini who, in addition to being a cook of some repute himself, is more the musical equivalent of Thomas Keller.

[tommy]

i wasn't suggesting that opera was "fine" and Pearl Jam was the music equivalent of junkfood.

OK, now see... I would totally suggest that. Heck, I'd outright say it. Pearl Jam is the musical equivalent of a really good guy at Burritoville as compared to Rossini who, in addition to being a cook of some repute himself, is more the musical equivalent of Thomas Keller.

clearly a subjective opinion. just as with food and restaurants.

[Varmint]

And on some days, there's nothing better than a burrito.

[KateW]

i wouldn't go to board on Opera and post about how much i like Pearl Jam.  seems like a reasonable analogy.

Ok...but nowhere do I see anything about this being a fine food and dining site;

i wasn't suggesting that opera was "fine" and Pearl Jam was the music equivalent of junkfood. i was, however, suggesting that discussion of one wouldn't necessarily fit in with discussion on the other...just as i wouldn't spend a large percentage of my posts telling the world how much i like Big Macs. one must recognize and understand their audience.

Ok now I'm just getting a headache. People are saying they didn't say something when they clearly did. I don't want to dig around for the contradicting posts, I don't want to play with the Quote feature anymore, let's just call the whole thing off.

I like tuna sandwiches; I don't know if the ones I make would be considered "good" or not, but I know when I don't like the one I'm eating, for instance if it is chunk lite tuna with miracle whip and american cheese. But I make mine the way I like them, and I think they're good, and I'm sure there are better out there, but I don't care. And yes, I am going to tell you all that I like them, even if it gets me ripped apart.

There is good to be said for chain restaurant food, if you don't compare them to something totally out of their league. They are good when they stand alone, and if you spend all your time comparing it to something else, just go eat the thing you're comparing it to, for heaven's sake, if it bothers you that much.

[KateW]

Helpers are the one thing I eat that I don't particularly like.

Then why do it? Just say 'no' and cook something else.

It's about that easy.

I do it to make him happy. And then I eat something else and we're both happy.

[slkinsey]

i wasn't suggesting that opera was "fine" and Pearl Jam was the music equivalent of junkfood.

OK, now see... I would totally suggest that. Heck, I'd outright say it. Pearl Jam is the musical equivalent of a really good guy at Burritoville as compared to Rossini who, in addition to being a cook of some repute himself, is more the musical equivalent of Thomas Keller.

clearly a subjective opinion. just as with food and restaurants.

Not in my opinion, it isn't... and I have some pretty good arguments on my side (what with being a musician and all). But this really isn't the time and certainly not a forum for such a discussion.

While I don't care for Pearl Jam (maybe I should have used an example of a group I actually like, like Tower of Power), I do love burritos. And both have their place in my world.