Grant Achatz Wins Beard Award!

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

The evocative use of smell to entice someone into having a pleasant memory is a noble cause. However, it seems rather presumptuous and pretentious to consider your idea of memory enticement (as a chef, cook) the same as someone who is sitting in your dining room. I understand the link between food, smell and memory. No one need explain that something quite surreal and magical happens when you taste something that you haven't tasted since childhood. But for a cook to create what he/she thinks may evoke a memory is a pretentious stab in the fucking dark. Yeah, pine will almost always conjure positive images...maybe your father was a logger and the smell of pine reminds you of riding in his pickup truck through the endless woods as a child. Or maybe your mom made Christmas wreaths with pine cones and the smell reminds you of sitting at Christmas dinner laughing uncontrollably at Cousin Deb because she forgot the words to the Lord's prayer and it was her time to recite. But to put a rabbit dish with ramps and blah blah in front of somebody who's probably never had either and then stick some goddamned pine branches around the perimeter of the dish to remind them of these scenarios has nothing to do with the magic of food. No matter how much you think of this guy, this method of memory manipulation is only valid if the food evokes a food memory. At least in my book...Otherwise it's chef masturbation and empty.

Edited May 24, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[davidthomas8779]

...Otherwise it's chef masturbation and empty.

After reading several of CWS's posts today, it is clear that he comes down squarely against chef masturbation.

[chefg]

In any event, I interpret Grant's use of *smells*--such as the much-discussed pine--as attempts to evoke memory during the dining experience.

I do not claim that Grant himself intends this.  But I was struck while reading this review last night by the fact that memory is so central to Sanchez Romera's concerns.

Grant, comments?

Yes we actively pursue the flavor/smell/memory aspect to exhance dinning at Trio. It adds a layer of unparalelled complexity to the overall experience . A few of our dishes hinge on it; like the cheese 'n cracker, salad, and pizza. Take a step back from roasting the perfect piece of meat or searing the flawless piece of foie gras, and think about taste, and how we process it. 9 out of 10 people will swear cheese 'n cracker tastes like veleeta, but in fact we use an artisan Cheddar from Wisconsin. I like it that way. Who doesn't want to travel back to a pleasant memory? Of course it could go the other way. The bottle of cognac of your old man's that you got sick off of probably makes you wince every time you smell it now. That is the essence of the power. Forget about perfect execution and seasoning, those are a given at a certain level. Even introducing someone to a new flavor or flavor combination takes second seat to memory. ( Unless you are a cook) Add dimension, layers, and fun to the dinning experience, that is what we aim for, that is exciting.

I commonly talk to guests,it is interesting to listen to people comment on their favorite dishes. Some people hate the salad, other think it is brillant. Goes to show you......

Interestingly I realized something today as I had lunch at Trio. My first time in the dinning room. I dinned with Debera Pickett from the Chicago Sun Times. She was doing her popular column "lunch with...." As I sat in the dinning room at Trio and recieved the food I realized i didn't enjoy it as most people do. Imagine knowing the plot line and the ending of Matrix Reloaded before you saw the movie. I watched Debera smile as she consumed the cheese 'n cracker, ponder as she let the pizza dissolve on her palette, and giggle as she bite into the black truffle explosion.The whole time I remained stoic upon recieving the same food. I knew the surprizes, I had viewed the presentations, I had experineced the memory. How many other cooks find their food less enjoyable than most?

[Louisa Chu]

chefg, this is the first time you've dined in your dining room?! I wonder how it would have been had you dined solo, with friends or other experienced Trio diners - rather than a reporter. Would you consider doing that another time? Do members of your staff ever have a dining room experience?

And please - Matrix Reloaded?! Might I humbly suggest that you give yourself a break?

For me, when I cook, yes, of course I know the scenes, I know the story, I'm not surprised by the ending. But when it's working right, the scenes, story, ending still hold me, draw me in emotionally, satisfyingly lead me to the end.

For you, what's your Lawrence of Arabia? That's how I imagine your dining experiences for you to be.

[Kerouac1964]

...Otherwise it's chef masturbation and empty.

After reading several of CWS's posts today, it is clear that he comes down squarely against chef masturbation.

I'm sure the Mastubatory Chefs of America and La Société Internationale des Chefs Mastubitory [European grip only] are spitting angry too!

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

.... I like it that way. Who doesn't want to travel back to a pleasant memory? Of course it could go the other way. The bottle of cognac of your old man's that you got sick off of probably makes you wince every time you smell it now. That is the essence of the power. Forget about perfect execution and seasoning, those are a given at a certain level.

The essence of power is what? The memory of stomach churning Cognac, or pleasant memories? My point is getting ignored. I'd love to travel back to a pleasant memory but sitting in a high-end restaurant smelling trees is inappropriate and doesn't correlate to what a chef should be trying to evoke from his audience. It's not about the chef, and what he likes. Ultimately it's about the customer and what he/she likes. Again, I think it's presumptuous to decide what smell you will use to manipulate people into liking your food. Or are you trying to get them to enjoy your memories. The "cause" doesn't seem pure here. It's seems like you'll do whatever it takes to cause a sensory spine chill. Disney does the same thing.

[tan319]

How many other cooks find their food less enjoyable than most?

I have the same problem and I've had it with records too.

I think it's almost impossible to taste (or hear) something and have the same experience as someone who hasn't gone thru the process.

You occasionally will get a glimmer of it or every once in a great while the whole thing comes thru but on average I think you might taste 60% of the (hopefully) greatness that's there.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I look at food like I look at the contents of a petri dish when I'm cooking it. I could be roasting a nice piece of meat but I think more about the science than the sustenance. Rarely does it occur to me to lop off a slice for myself. The one exception is foie gras...searing..that musty rich smell knocking all of the other smells in the kitchen to the side. I think this is normal. Foie gras is amazing stuff...

And as for sitting down and being served my food...I can't do it, unless I've had a few glasses of wine. I find the flaws, get mad at my cooks for fucking up my brilliant ideas or worse; I realize that this dish that I've been proud of for three months actually tastes like shit. I belong behind the swinging doors anyhow. I've never had an ephinany eating my own food in the dining room. Never. But that doesn't bug me...

Edited May 24, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Achatz vs. Spencer!!!

Rumble in the woods!

Who will come out on top?

Who's cuisine will reign supreme?!!!!

   

Rumble in the woods? Or rumble with wood. In the latter's case Achatz would have me beat hands down with The Pinecone Incident. I'm sure he'd wipe his tukus with my array of bad techniques and jury-rigged protein treatments. But the battle would be laser close if it came down to flavor.

[RyneSchraw]

The essence of power is what?  The memory of stomach churning Cognac, or pleasant memories?  My point is getting ignored.  I'd love to travel back to a pleasant memory but sitting in a high-end restaurant smelling trees is inappropriate and doesn't correlate to what a chef should be trying to evoke from his audience.  It's not about the chef, and what he likes.  Ultimately it's about the customer and what he/she likes.  Again, I think it's presumptuous to decide what smell you will use to manipulate people into liking your food.  Or are you trying to get them to enjoy your memories. The "cause" doesn't seem pure here.  It's seems like you'll do whatever it takes to cause a sensory spine chill.  Disney does the same thing.

Jesus Spencer--you've been taking shots at this dish for over a week now, but you still haven't gone in and tried it!? That, to me, is a bit presumptuous, not to mention unsettling. I had lunch at Trio yesterday---ditched school with three friends and sat at a table next to Chef Achatz and Debera Pickett---and although this item wasn't on the lunch menu, it was sent out to our table as a compliment from the kitchen. Instead of Swan Creek rabbit we received sauteéd frog legs, but the rest of the dish was the same (wild mushrooms, wild asparagus, wild ramps, evergreen vapor...) It's a very earthy and rich dish, and also an excellent one. To me the standout (and dominant) flavor came from the morel mushrooms, which were unbelievably flavorful. The frog legs were wonderfully cooked and very tender, but not chewy like they can be sometimes. The evergreen vapor was very subtle and really only provided another layer of complexity. I think Spencer is missing the point---the vapor isn't supposed to remind you of Christmas morning, but rather add to a very earthy combination of flavors (all from the forest) and to show that pine can be a valid ingredient.

A couple quick questions for Spencer:

-What is it you find so objectable about pine/evergreen as an ingredient?

-How is it any less valid as a foodstuff than rosemary, white truffles, matsutake mushrooms (from the pine forests of Japan), or foie gras?

-How is using a smell to affect people any different than using taste or texture? And if it's "presumptuous" for the chef to be the one to choose that smell (or taste or texture) than who should? Apparently you feel this should be left up to the customer who's never actually eaten in the restaurant.

I guess my point is this: if you are going to say things like "it's not about the chef, and what he likes" and that "ultimately it's about the customer and what he/she likes," then you have to realize that it's not always about YOU and what YOU like. You may love foie (I do as well), but I know a lot of people who won't touch the stuff. And I've met people who have disliked rosemary, truffles and mushrooms as well, so the fact that you think you "dislike" a dish that utilizes evergreen (that for all we know, you might actually enjoy it if you do, in fact, ever try it) doesn't really say much at all.

Edited May 25, 2003 by RyneSchraw (log)

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Ryne, nothing against you dude, I'm sure you're a stand up guy, but I don't think you're being objective here. Anyone who skips school to eat at a fine dining restaurant, who has made it his life's mission to PR one restaurant and one chef, is not seeing the full picture. The only restaurant you care about is Trio. You should look into being this guy's agent. I'm under the impression that if he blew chunks on some Limoges, garnished it with a squirrel's tail, and finished the "dish" off with some shaved white Alba you'd be talking about "earthy, subtle, brilliant. G.'s interpretation of a train wreck was perfect, light, luxurious, a nice compliment to a bottle of 2001Beringer White Zin. I've explained my stance...I'm going there this summer, so I will shut the fuck up until then...S

Edited May 25, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[NeroW]

I'd love to travel back to a pleasant memory but sitting in a high-end restaurant smelling trees is inappropriate and doesn't correlate to what a chef should be trying to evoke from his audience.

Inappropriate!

That's rich, coming from you.

Then, in your opinion, what is appropriate?

And just out of curiousity, since I'm the one who brought this dish up on this thread in the first place (if my memory serves me), what component of this dish do you find so objectionable?

Is it the pine itself? Or the ingredients in combination?

[NeroW]

I had lunch at Trio yesterday---ditched school with three friends and sat at a table next to Chef Achatz and Debera Pickett---and although this item wasn't on the lunch menu, it was sent out to our table as a compliment from the kitchen.

Where the hell were guys like you when I was in high school?

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I'd love to travel back to a pleasant memory but sitting in a high-end restaurant smelling trees is inappropriate and doesn't correlate to what a chef should be trying to evoke from his audience.

Inappropriate!

That's rich, coming from you.

Then, in your opinion, what is appropriate?

And just out of curiousity, since I'm the one who brought this dish up on this thread in the first place (if my memory serves me), what component of this dish do you find so objectionable?

Is it the pine itself? Or the ingredients in combination?

Nero...You bring up a good point...but if you've read my posts concerning this dead horse subject you'd realize where I'm coming from. I'm a chef, the parameters are different. I'm trying to come up with new dishes all the time too. So I can put myself in the mindset of someone trying to push the envelope...not that you can't. Having had this mindset for twelve years, constantly evaluating the boundaries of good flavor, presentation, and brilliant ingenuity I'm rather jaded to the bold moves of those who are determined to break a new style onto the scene. And if this style is based on the surreal and brilliant moves of the original edge cutter I find little intrinsic value. But that's me. I'm not speaking for anyone other than me. I know Grant is an awesome cook. I have no doubt. I'll be glad though, when this Kola Nut Ice, Shabbu-Shabbu thing runs its course. He'll be a force to reckon with then on a global level.

[skchai]

I'm not sure where this fits into the topic (I got disoriented after reading the last few dozen back-and-forths), but the use of pine needles to scent food is actually a common and traditional technique in Korea.

There is a very popular Korean dish called songpyeon in which sweetened sesame-seed filled ricecakes are steamed in a container filled with pine needles. Songpyeon is eaten by nearly everybody during Chuseok, or Korean Thanksgiving. The pine scent does a good job of helping to balance the otherwise cloying sesame/sugar/rice combination; sometimes chopped mugwort is added to the dough for the same reason.

There is no reason to believe that any self-conscious innovation for its own sake was involved in the origin of this festive food. It evolved from related foods, making use of available ingredients, and was accepted because people thought (and still think) it tastes good. This is presumably also true for other examples of traditional dishes that incorporate tree-ish fragrances, such as the use of camphor (hey, it's an insect repellent!) in Szechuanese tea-smoked ducks.

 

It's fine that you may not enjoy something, but to completely dimiss it as a joke seems a bit presumptuous.

My point is who would want to eat something that tasted like a pine cone. It's the whim of a chef who's trying to create the uncreated. Even if I liked the dish--which wouldn't be the case--I would have a difficult time appreciating it as real cuisine. It's like Walt Disney breathing down Thomas Keller's throat, being nut-kicked by a Red Bulled Adria. It's too much, it doesn't appeal to me....

Despite the part about being "nut-kicked by a Red Bulled Adria", CWS writes very clearly, so it's pretty straightforward to extract these two pillars of his argument: (1) No one would want to eat something that tastes of pine. (2) Use of pine is not "real cuisine" and reflects the chef's "whim".

I think this post and a number of earlier ones establish that (1) is untrue. We have the reports of Trio diners in this thread who have raved about the pine-needle dish (dishes). Now, a curmudgeon might argue that these diners have been psychologically primed by hype to expect something great, and that any perceived deliciousness is entirely a result of that priming. But even if we were willing to be so cynical, it would be hard to make a similar argument about a dish as traditional as songpyeon.

Regarding (2), there is no question that pine needles are part of "real cuisine" in the Korean context. Thus CWS would have to argue from the position of cultural relativism - that pine needles may fill some criterion of real cuisine within a Confucian/dog-eating context but inevitably reflect a chef's whim within a Midwestern Calvinist/hog-eating context. However, this would require a very, very reductionist view of culture!

[lizzie]

I'm not sure where this fits into the topic (I got disoriented after reading the last few dozen  back-and-forths), but the use of pine needles to scent food is actually a common and traditional technique in Korea. 

There is no reason to believe that any self-conscious innovation for its own sake was involved in the origin of this festive food.  It evolved from related foods, making use of available ingredients, and was accepted because people thought (and still think) it tastes good.  This is presumably also true for other examples of traditional dishes that incorporate tree-ish fragrances, ...

 

My point is who would want to eat something that tasted like a pine cone. It's the whim of a chef who's trying to create the uncreated. Even if I liked the dish--which wouldn't be the case--I would have a difficult time appreciating it as real cuisine. It's like Walt Disney breathing down Thomas Keller's throat, being nut-kicked by a Red Bulled Adria. It's too much, it doesn't appeal to me....

...CWS writes very clearly, so it's pretty straightforward to extract these two pillars of his argument: (1) No one would want to eat something that tastes of pine. (2) Use of pine is not "real cuisine" and reflects the chef's "whim".

There's nothing weird, unusual, or strange about eating pine nuts (pignoli), either. Pine nuts grow in pine cones, on pinon pine trees. And juniper (while not pine, but another resinous evergreen) is the basic flavoring in gin, as well as being used for seasoning game, etc.

[RyneSchraw]

It's also true that several Native American tribes used various elements of evergreens in their cooking: needles, bark, boiled the sap down like maple syrup, etc. Also Cassia Bark Cinnamon comes from the small Evergreen Laurel Tree that originated in Burma, as well (got that one off Google.)

But really, I don't think the issue here is actually about the using evergreens in cooking or about the food being done at Trio anymore, is it? When things like this...

I'll be glad though, when this Kola Nut Ice, Shabbu-Shabbu thing runs its course.

...are being said, I start to interpret that opinion, in more general terms, as: "No other culture's food---whether it be Korean, Japanese, Native American, or African---has any place (and is actually 'inappropriate') when being served at a fine dining restaurant." To me it's the elitist French view, the one that claims traditional French food is the end of the road of sorts---the highest pillar of cooking that man will ever reach blah blah blah... I love French food, but I couldn't disagree more. Now if someone were to actually go and sit down and try a dish with evergreen vapor, and then decide that they didn't like it at all, it would be completely different story and an extremely valid one. But, to argue that pine is not 'real cuisine' because it tastes and smells like pine is backwards, in my opinion. A kola nut tastes and smells like a kola nut, but it also played a huge role in African culture as an important food that was traded (along with animals and yam seeds) among Nigerian tribes for hundreds of years (got that from Things Fall Apart.) All I really would like to know is what makes any of these ingredients or techniques from other cultures any less valid or important than, say, a sautéed piece of foie? Really?

[edit: add link]

Edited May 27, 2003 by RyneSchraw (log)