TDG: Wine Camp: ABC, Easy as 123?

mamster · May 2, 2003

So, can someone explain (I know Craig hinted at it in the column) why oak sometimes works and sometimes not? I enjoy drinking port (full-bodied, sweet, heavily oaked), but an oaky California chardonnay (generally also full-bodied, sweet, and heavily oaked) is gross. What else has to be in there to make the oak work?

docsconz · May 2, 2003

I can absolutely understand the dissing of the cheaper over-oaked supermarket chardonnays of the new world - there is nothing worse than K-J "reserve" chardonnay (except perhaps for any "white" zinfandel"), but to denounce all oak in chardonnay is to say that the great white burgundies from the Cote d'Or are worthless as well. I also happen to think there are a fair number of California chardonnays made in the "Burgundian" style that are more than decent - I happen to enjoy Steve Kistler's wines very much and don't mind a Marcassin every now and then when I can get a hold of one. Others I enjoy on occasion include Pahlmeyer, Chalone and Montelena. I have to admit though that I enjoy these wines more as aperitifs than as versatile food wines (although they are not as difficult to pair as has been accused on this thread). I tend to like SB's more for delicate seafood dishes, Alsatian or Germans for spicier or fattier dishes, white Bordeaux or Rhone often go well with fowl dishes.

Robin Meredith · May 2, 2003

So, can someone explain (I know Craig hinted at it in the column) why oak sometimes works and sometimes not? I enjoy drinking port (full-bodied, sweet, heavily oaked), but an oaky California chardonnay (generally also full-bodied, sweet, and heavily oaked) is gross. What else has to be in there to make the oak work?

This analogy is likely to fall apart somewhere along the way, but I'll give it a try:

My favorite marinade for grilling is a basic dijon mustard/garlic/olive oil/red wine vinegar/hot pepper flakes concoction. I love to use it with pork and lamb, because the assertive flavors of the marinade work nicely with the flavors of the meat. I've never thought about using it with chicken breasts, because I figured you probably wouldn't taste anything but the marinade.

I've always thought of Chardonnay as the chicken of grape varieties - a relatively neutral vehicle that allows both the characteristics of terroir and the influence of the winemaker to shine through rather clearly. I'm a big fan, but the grape clearly doesn't have the sort of distinctive varietal character you might associate with Riesling or Gewurtztraminer or even Sauvignon Blanc. It just doesn't bring that much of itself to the table. So it's like the grilled chicken - all you taste is the "marinade".

Unfortunately, I think the analogy is already broken, because I can't think of anything more repulsive than oaky Riesling or Muscat or Gewurtztraminer, despite the intense flavor profiles of those varieties. Maybe it's like putting sorrel sauce on your steak - it's just wrong.

Robin Meredith · May 3, 2003

Here's another thought. My wife offered me some of her grapefruit juice at breakfast this morning, but I was drinking coffee at the time, and coffee and citrus are two things that I generally like to keep as far apart as possible (if you've ever gone straight from your orange juice to your coffee you have an inkling of what I'm talking about here).

Maybe the same thing applies to wine, with oak standing in for the coffee and white wine (which is almost always higher in acid than red wine) standing in for the grapefruit juice. I'm no flavor scientist, but it seems like oak and coffee have some common elements, and it may be that those flavor compounds just don't interact very gracefully with fruit acids.

What do you think?

Craig Camp · May 3, 2003

Mr. Meredith - or should we have a more formal term - Sir Meredith the Taster. I am humbled in front of such insight. This is the way we all should taste. Your descriptions are an inspiration for us all.

Why do we have this strange division in concept and language between food and wine. Food and wine at their peak are the same experience. Wine is a food.

Wine descriptions on this level have a unique ability to communicate - both to others and to your own memory.

Bravo.

...and one more thing - coffee and citrus is disgusting. Who ever thought of that!

Craig Camp · May 3, 2003

So, can someone explain (I know Craig hinted at it in the column) why oak sometimes works and sometimes not? I enjoy drinking port (full-bodied, sweet, heavily oaked), but an oaky California chardonnay (generally also full-bodied, sweet, and heavily oaked) is gross. What else has to be in there to make the oak work?

A huge question not simply answered. Whites and reds have a different intimate relationship with oak as white wines oxidize easier than red.

The massive fruit of young port wine with the added alcohol is not much influenced by the required two years in wood (vintage port) while a chardonnay would be destroyed by the same experience. The higher tannins and dry extract of red wines also change the formula.

When you mention port are you referring to vintage or wood (blended) ports? They are two different children of the same parent.

To be as simple as possible aging chardonnay and port in oak are topics that just don't relate to each other.

tommy · May 3, 2003

Maybe the same thing applies to wine, with oak standing in for the coffee and white wine (which is almost always higher in acid than red wine) standing in for the grapefruit juice. I'm no flavor scientist, but it seems like oak and coffee have some common elements, and it may be that those flavor compounds just don't interact very gracefully with fruit acids.

nice job. just as coffee and milk go together better than coffee and OJ, oak and lactic acids go together better than oak and malic acids.

lactic acids (like milk) oddly enough to not go well with malic acids (OJ). yuck. milk and OJ are just not good together. :blink:

viejo majadero · May 3, 2003

Ok, then.

Chateau Yquem just released this year its 1997.

White and 42 months on 100% new oak.

As Ricki Riccardo would ask, "Splain me that thin?

Viejo

tommy · May 3, 2003

well i suppose there are other elements of wine making than just the oaking. some might argue that california and other new world countries haven't yet figured that out and therefore suffer from a case of flabby oaky wines.

Edited May 3, 2003 by tommy (log)

docsconz · May 3, 2003

Maybe the same thing applies to wine, with oak standing in for the coffee and white wine (which is almost always higher in acid than red wine) standing in for the grapefruit juice. I'm no flavor scientist, but it seems like oak and coffee have some common elements, and it may be that those flavor compounds just don't interact very gracefully with fruit acids.

nice job. just as coffee and milk go together better than coffee and OJ, oak and lactic acids go together better than oak and malic acids.
lactic acids (like milk) oddly enough to not go well with malic acids (OJ). yuck. milk and OJ are just not good together.

Your hypothesis doesn't make sense when it comes to wine since malic acid is converted to lactic acid as part of malolactic fermentation. See here.

In addition, while orange juice certainly contains acid, the predominant acids are citric and ascorbic. Malik acid is found to some extent in probably all fruits and in fact follows after citic acid as part of the KREBS cycle so important in organic chemistry.

I personally think that the dissing of all American chardonnays as being of the same poor style is ridiculous and indicates an ignorance or snobbishness that is unbecoming of members of this site. Of course a lot of American chardonnay is plonk, but so is a lot of wine of all types including chardonnay from Burgundy, the rest ofFrance and elsewhere. The problem is not that oak is used, but how it is used and the fact that for whatever reason "oak wine" chardonnays from California became successful with a lot of stylistic copycats. Nevertheless, while I would even concede that a majority of California chard falls into that camp, not nearly all of it does. A lot of California chardonnay including those previously mentioned as well as others like Peter Michael use oak as a nuance and not as a sledgehammer.

Craig Camp · May 3, 2003

Your hypothesis doesn't make sense when it comes to wine since malic acid is converted to lactic acid as part of malolactic fermentation.

Many chardonnay wines made in the new world (indeed many whites the world over) do not undergo malolactic fermentation in order to preserve acidity.

Craig Camp · May 3, 2003

I personally think that the dissing of all American chardonnays as being of the same poor style is ridiculous and indicates an ignorance or snobbishness that is unbecoming of members of this site.

I don't think anyone is dissing all wines of anywhere when they state personal preferences. I enjoy many California wines as I am sure most people on this site do. I find the lower end of California chardonnay to be a particularly dismal lot as they try to imitate the flavors of more expensive wines with predictable results.

I am sure that you will find your opinions are respected.

docsconz · May 3, 2003

Your hypothesis doesn't make sense when it comes to wine since malic acid is converted to lactic acid as part of malolactic fermentation.
Many chardonnay wines made in the new world (indeed many whites the world over) do not undergo malolactic fermentation in order to preserve acidity.

Craig,

That is the main element of the point I'm trying to make - they cannot all be lumped together the way some posters are trying to do.

Craig Camp · May 3, 2003

Your hypothesis doesn't make sense when it comes to wine since malic acid is converted to lactic acid as part of malolactic fermentation.
Many chardonnay wines made in the new world (indeed many whites the world over) do not undergo malolactic fermentation in order to preserve acidity.
Craig,
That is the main element of the point I'm trying to make - they cannot all be lumped together the way some posters are trying to do.

Most of the wine made everywhere is plonk. Yes, in Burgundy too. A small percentage of growers make outstanding wines. I would guess the percentage is about the same everywhere.

The new world wine regions seem to be the weakest at producing really interesting mid-range wines. Burgundy has Macon but what does California or Australia have but industrial wine in this price range? It seems everyone wants to be Kendall Jackson or P. Michael without much in between.

tommy · May 3, 2003

Maybe the same thing applies to wine, with oak standing in for the coffee and white wine (which is almost always higher in acid than red wine) standing in for the grapefruit juice. I'm no flavor scientist, but it seems like oak and coffee have some common elements, and it may be that those flavor compounds just don't interact very gracefully with fruit acids.

nice job. just as coffee and milk go together better than coffee and OJ, oak and lactic acids go together better than oak and malic acids.
lactic acids (like milk) oddly enough to not go well with malic acids (OJ). yuck. milk and OJ are just not good together.
Your hypothesis doesn't make sense when it comes to wine since malic acid is converted to lactic acid as part of malolactic fermentation.

which part doesn't make sense? i was extending the parallel, and at the end simply saying that milk and OJ don't go well together.

tommy · May 3, 2003

i pretty sure that no one who has contributed to this thread so far is so ignorant as to lump all of *anything* together.

docsconz · May 3, 2003

Your hypothesis doesn't make sense when it comes to wine since malic acid is converted to lactic acid as part of malolactic fermentation.
Many chardonnay wines made in the new world (indeed many whites the world over) do not undergo malolactic fermentation in order to preserve acidity.
Craig,
That is the main element of the point I'm trying to make - they cannot all be lumped together the way some posters are trying to do.
The new world wine regions seem to be the weakest at producing really interesting mid-range wines. Burgundy has Macon but what does California or Australia have but industrial wine in this price range? It seems everyone wants to be Kendall Jackson or P. Michael without much in between.

Craig,

I do not disagree with you on this point.

Craig Camp · May 3, 2003

i pretty sure that no one who has contributed to this thread so far is so ignorant as to lump all of *anything* together.

I will confess it is easy to let my own taste prejudice sneak in. Once in a while I am capable of heaving a whopping generalization out there. Not on this thread of course. :wink:

docsconz · May 3, 2003

Trish, i must say that i simply do not drink california chardonnays. i know that they're coming around from the oaked syrup that they produced in the 90's, but by and large, they are still all the "same." although, i get out to napa/sonoma about once a year, and i've seen a big changes in some of the wineries' wine making style. whether those "experiments" are hitting the mass market remains to be seen. in time, i would imagine. the tides are clearing turning.

Tommy,

Forgive me if I misread the character and intent of your posts, but if I did, I'm not sure it was entirely my fault. I just went back through all your posts, and while you do say that not all chardonnays are the same, you do not say that about California chardonnays in particular. You do continually state throughout your posts how much you dislike California chardonnays and in the above quote you state "they are still all the 'same'". In fairness, you also mention stylistic "experiments" at least acknowleding that some are at least trying to achieve different styles. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to like any particular or even any chardonnay. I just have a hard time with over-broad generalizations. Once again, I apologize if i misinterpreted the tenor of your posts.

tommy · May 3, 2003

docsconz, i understand the misunderstanding. it was definitely my intention to be sweeping and broad, in the spirit of how these discussions generally go. :biggrin: however, if i think that "all california chards are 'the same'" then that's my opinion. however, it should be clear in reading this thread alone, not to mention others in which i've participated, that i have a bit more experience and knowledge to make such an outrageous statement without my tongue in my cheek just a little. :wink:

and, i don't dislike california chardonnays. i dislike any wine that is overly oaked. in my experience, that includes, but is not limited to, many many new world chardonnays.

claire797 · May 4, 2003

I personally think that the dissing of all American chardonnays as being of the same poor style is ridiculous and indicates an ignorance or snobbishness that is unbecoming of members of this site. Of course a lot of American chardonnay is plonk, but so is a lot of wine of all types including chardonnay from Burgundy, the rest ofFrance and elsewhere. The problem is not that oak is used, but how it is used and the fact that for whatever reason "oak wine" chardonnays from California became successful with a lot of stylistic copycats. Nevertheless, while I would even concede that a majority of California chard falls into that camp, not nearly all of it does. A lot of California chardonnay including those previously mentioned as well as others like Peter Michael use oak as a nuance and not as a sledgehammer.

Thank you.

tommy · May 4, 2003

I personally think that the dissing of all American chardonnays as being of the same poor style is ridiculous and indicates an ignorance or snobbishness that is unbecoming of members of this site. Of course a lot of American chardonnay is plonk, but so is a lot of wine of all types including chardonnay from Burgundy, the rest ofFrance and elsewhere. The problem is not that oak is used, but how it is used and the fact that for whatever reason "oak wine" chardonnays from California became successful with a lot of stylistic copycats. Nevertheless, while I would even concede that a majority of California chard falls into that camp, not nearly all of it does. A lot of California chardonnay including those previously mentioned as well as others like Peter Michael use oak as a nuance and not as a sledgehammer.
Thank you.

but claire, we were all saying that all along! :biggrin:

hollywood · May 5, 2003

Craig,

have you tried White Rock ChardonnaY? Thoughts?

Around these parts ABC is wine lingo for Au Bon Climat, which turns out some fair whites.

Craig Camp · May 5, 2003

Craig,
have you tried White Rock ChardonnaY? Thoughts?
Around these parts ABC is wine lingo for Au Bon Climat, which turns out some fair whites.

I have not had the White Rock wines since Douglas Danielak (one of the finest winemakers in California) left in the late 90's. If the wines are still in the same style they are exceptional.

Au Bon Climat Chardonnay is very interesting wine but a little heavy for food in my opinion. All the chardonnay in that area seems to have an intense tropical fruit aroma that puts me off a bit.

I certainly don't quarrel with the fact that there are many wonderful California chardonnays are produced at the upper end of the price spectrum. However the under $20.00 crowd is a pretty boring group.

hollywood · May 5, 2003

Craig,
have you tried White Rock ChardonnaY? Thoughts?
Around these parts ABC is wine lingo for Au Bon Climat, which turns out some fair whites.
I have not had the White Rock wines since Douglas Danielak (one of the finest winemakers in California) left in the late 90's. If the wines are still in the same style they are exceptional.
Au Bon Climat Chardonnay is very interesting wine but a little heavy for food in my opinion. All the chardonnay in that area seems to have an intense tropical fruit aroma that puts me off a bit.
I certainly don't quarrel with the fact that there are many wonderful California chardonnays are produced at the upper end of the price spectrum. However the under $20.00 crowd is a pretty boring group.

Yeah, you're right about the under $20. If I recall correctly, Splichal had some ABC bottling for Patina/Pinot house wine.

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