Shouldn't the consumer be aware

[macrosan]

I'll repeat what I said before. It's not a question of responsibility, or duty, or "must", or "has to". It's not an issue of A or B. It's just to do with a commercial relationship, and I don't see where some people have a problem with this. It's in the restaurant's own commercial interests to tell consumers as much as they reasonably can, whilst not accepting a duty or responsibility or need to do so. It's in the customer's interests to tell a server as much as is important, and to ask as many questions as seems reasonable.

That isn't a perfect system, but it works fine most of the time. But there are some clear and predictable situations where problems for a customer might arise. For example, if I order a dish of artichoke hearts, I would not expect to find meat in it, unless the menu suggested otherwise. An example of this might be Artichokes a la Grecque. Now I have no idea what "a la Grecque" might mean in this context, but it's a signal of a special preparation so I would ask. Absolutely no problem for anyone, provided that the server, when I ask him if it contains meat, gives an accurate answer.

To return to the original example given by Kate, if the fish dish she referred to was called Salmon a la Grecque, then again I believe there is no problem. I would ask. But if it was called poached salmon, I suspect that very few people would expect the dish to contain anything other than salmon. If in fact the salmon is cooked with prawns, or bacon, or meat stock, or wrapped in caul fat, then I would suggest only that it would be wise and customer-friendly for the restaurant to state this on the menu, or to signal it in the way I suggest. Salmon a la Grecque ???

Whaasup widdat ?

[tommy]

To return to the original example given by Kate, if the fish dish she referred to was called Salmon a la Grecque, then again I believe there is no problem. I would ask. But if it was called poached salmon, I suspect that very few people would expect the dish to contain anything other than salmon. If in fact the salmon is cooked with prawns, or bacon, or meat stock, or wrapped in caul fat, then I would suggest only that it would be wise and customer-friendly for the restaurant to state this on the menu, or to signal it in the way I suggest. Salmon a la Grecque ???

Whaasup widdat ? 

i'm thinking a lot of fish dishes are prepared with meat-based demi-glaces and sauces. to that end, i don't think it's reasonable that the menu or server mention it every time. if you don't want meat product, ask.

last night i ordered cod. the cod came with a few cockles in the sauce (which probably had cream in it). i don't think that the cockles (which are shell fish and might cause a problem for some) or the cream were mentioned in the description of the dish. was the restaurant wrong? please.

[Ron Johnson]

What if I go to WD50 and tell them that I am allergic to everything except salad?

[elyse]

There are realistic expectations one may have of a menu. A seafood dish only containing seafood is one of them. A red meat dish only containing red meat is another. Unexpected combinations should be printed on the menu clearly or pointed out by the staff. If you have a severe allergy, yes, mention it, but only because you can't trust other people with your life. When I was in school in Providence, a woman died at a restaurant down the street who served her chili. Their thickening agent was peanut butter. How often do you encounter peanutbutter in chili? This should have been clearly printed.

Spring rolls, you never know if it will be vegetarian, or will contain shrimp. I ask. I do not feel the need, however, to ask if my pasta with a dozen ingredients listed on the menu will ALSO have an egg cracked over the top. The ONE ingredient they didn't list. It went back to the kitchen. "Are you by chance going to crack an egg on my pasta?" What a rediculous question to ask under the circumstances.

[jeniac42]

The thing is, if I had a food allergy so severe I might die from it, you damn well better believe I'd be asking about everything that went into my mouth.

I think fish with meat-based sauces is pretty common, so I wouldn't see a need to disclaim that. Also, having waitstaff verify every ingredient with every person who orders a dish would be... well, not so good. Can you imagine how long it would take to order dinner, and how obnoxious it would get?

"Is bacon OK?"

"Yes."

"What about eggs?"

"Fine."

"Dairy products?"

"Yes."

"Spinach?"

"What the heck, just BRING ME MY FOOD!"

You know? I mean, it gets to a point where it's ridiculous. Restaurants should never be dishonest when asked what goes into a preparation (intentionally or through an error of omission) but with the number of things people object to, are allergic to, or otherwise won't eat, it's just kind of impossible to keep up.

Edited because I forgot to say that listing every ingredient on the menu might also get out of hand.

Edited March 11, 2003 by jeniac42 (log)

[Ron Johnson]

What a rediculous question to ask under the circumstances.

If I had an allergy to eggs that could result in my death, I would ask everytime I ordered food and wouldn't feel ridiculous at all.

[elyse]

What a rediculous question to ask under the circumstances.

If I had an allergy to eggs that could result in my death, I would ask everytime I ordered food and wouldn't feel ridiculous at all.

Regarding the egg question, my point was that every single ingredient in the dish was listed on the menu, EXCEPT the egg. All the bits,pieces, spices, herbs, everything. For a giant fried egg NOT to be listed was just stupid.

I have no real food allergies, I just vomit immediately.

[jeniac42]

I have no real food allergies, I just vomit immediately.

Well, that'd teach 'em right quick, wouldn't it?

[elyse]

I have no real food allergies, I just vomit immediately.

Well, that'd teach 'em right quick, wouldn't it?

That's what I'm sayin'!

Edited March 11, 2003 by elyse (log)

[Kim WB]

When I was in school in Providence, a woman died at a restaurant down the street who served her chili.  Their thickening agent was peanut butter.  How often do you encounter peanutbutter in chili?  This should have been clearly printed. 

This goes back to the issue of accountability. If a grown woman has an allergy so severe that it can result in her death, than she needs to confirm every bite of food that she puts in her mouth that she did not prepare,a nd read the ingredient list for, herself. Does that become cumbersome to her...yes..it does..but it is still her responsibility. Especially peanuts, since peanut oil shows up in LOTS of places. I've mentioned on these boards before about my son's best frined, who is allergic to peanuts and carries an epi-pen. He was in a coma for 11 days when he was 16 months old from a peanut reaction, so its serious. When he was in kindergarten, On the first play date at my house, his mother came with lists of foods with peanut oil, special treats for him to have, and was generally very proactive about his condition. The kid has been like a third son to me for years..so now, I'm comfortable with it. He has been trained to question everything, and if its an unknown, he skips it. Because he is wanting to get more independent from his mom, maybe go to Chilis with friends or something, ( they are 13 now) , she has developed a comprehensive list of what foods he can and can't have at local restaurants he'd visit...so if after the movie the carpooling parent wants to stop at Burger King , he pulls out the index card and is reminded of "safe" Burger King choices.

Unless this new allergy drug works for him, and since not every restaurant will fit on his index card, he will need to ask each and every time. And I adore this kid, and I feel bad sometimes for his limitations...but it is a fact of his life.

And, chili is on the list for peanut allergies as a "hidden " ingredient.

Edited March 11, 2003 by Kim WB (log)

[g.johnson]

I do not feel the need, however, to ask if my pasta with a dozen ingredients listed on the menu will ALSO have an egg cracked over the top.

Erm. Pasta is made with eggs.

[scrumdiddlyumptious]

I do not feel the need, however, to ask if my pasta with a dozen ingredients listed on the menu will ALSO have an egg cracked over the top.  The ONE ingredient they didn't list.  It went back to the kitchen.  "Are you by chance going to crack an egg on my pasta?"  What a rediculous question to ask under the circumstances.

Oh I know exactly what you mean. I can't tolerate bell peppers. I'm not allergic to them, but eating them makes me very unhappy. So I carefully read menu descriptions to see if menu items include peppers. If the descriptions are sparse, I almost always ask. When I forget, I know it's my own fault. But when the descriptions list a bunch of ingredients, I get lulled into a false sense of security and choose one that doesn't list peppers (even though other menu items do list peppers.) So when it comes out with peppers, I get pissy. Chefs are pepper happy so I am getting better about always remembering to ask.

[KateW]

Wow, this has really blown up. I had a great time reading your in-depth answers.

I don't have any food allergies, so it did not occur to me that it might be perfectly normal for a consumer to make sure there was no beef products in their seafood, for instance. I suppose if you did have such an aversion to beef that you would make sure it wasn't in anything, right down to the salad.

In the end I suppose it is ultimately up to the consumer. But I still think an unsuspecting consumer who is perhaps new to not eating meat might go order a seafood dish thinking it would be safe. But it is still best to ask.

I just found the menu online and looked it over, they call it scottish salmon but I bet that is more an indication of where it is from, rather than how it was prepared, not that I would know either way LOL

[Suzanne F]

Recently I ate at a (in my opinion) relatively high end restaurant within a hotel.  I ordered salmon and, being the kind of person who tends to delve into food without contemplating it much, I dove in.  I enjoyed it thoroughly.

After I had finished, the waitress came over and said with a twinkle in her eye, "Do you know what that was wrapped in?" (I had told her I am a culinary student and I think she was quizzing me.)  I shook my head no, and she said "Caul".  I learned that this is cow intestine.  After trying a bit of what I had left on the plate I could detect it but wouldn't have thought of it otherwise.

My question is, shouldn't this be brought to one's attention on the menu or by the server?  Or is it up to the consumer to make sure there is nothing in it that they wouldn't eat?

To go back to Kate's original questions -- remember these??

Should the restaurant have listed caul fat on the menu as part of the dish, or should the server have mentioned its presence before Kate ordered? Hell, no. If they alerted customers, how many orders do you think they'd sell? Not even everyone on eGullet knows what it is, and how it improves the dish it's in by keeping the food moist -- so how would the general public react? Probably with horror. Granted, the server's disingenuousness -- and incorrect information -- didn't help any. But if she had not said anything, would it have mattered? Not to a person who perhaps had never encountered caul fat before, but would suffer no harm (physical, emotional, psychological, or moral) from the knowledge or fact of having eaten it. However, a person who eschews animal products should always ask, especially at "relatively high end restaurant" where up-to-date cooking might be practiced.

Kate's second question: we've all been focussing on the "wouldn't eat" as equal to "couldn't eat." Most of us seem to agree that in a case of possible death, the consumer has the right and responsibility to ask very specific questions and the establishment has the responsibility to respond fully and correctly. Likewise with less drastic but real physical consequences, and with statements of principle, and maybe even in cases of strong aversion for no reason other than personal taste. If you don't want to eat something, make sure it's not in the food you order. Simple: just ask clearly. I believe in asking a lot of questions about the preparation of dishes I'm considering, and I'm a lucky omnivore. Anyway, unless you have a long, long list of foods you don't like, how hard is it to ask "What EXACTLY is in this dish?" and ask a followup question or two if necessary? If it embarrasses you so much to ask, maybe you should just try to get over the aversion.

The whole point is, never assume ANYTHING.

[tommy]

thanks for summarizing there suzanne.

[elyse]

I do not feel the need, however, to ask if my pasta with a dozen ingredients listed on the menu will ALSO have an egg cracked over the top.

Erm. Pasta is made with eggs.

Yes, but it's usually intertwined with flour and water. Big gobbs of it make me unhappy. French toast is iffy for me.

[Pan]

So everytime a person orders the turkey sandwich, the waiter is expected to tell them it has bacon on it

Yep. The point is that when you order a turkey sandwich, you don't expect other types of meat in it. I think the same thing is true in regard to a fish dish with caul fat, though perhaps a bit less so, since it sounds like it's part of a somewhat more intricate cooked dish, rather than a simple sandwich. If I ask for a "turkey sandwich on whole wheat with lettuce, tomato, red onion, and provolone cheese," I didn't ask for bacon, and no-one should include bacon without asking me if that's OK (and I'd probably say "No"). I think it's completely ridiculous to expect someone ordering a turkey sandwich to think s/he has any reason to say "I don't want any bacon with that." 99.99999% of the time, someone saying that would be considered a total weirdo: "What?! Didn't you ask for a turkey sandwich? There's no bacon in that!"

[britcook]

So everytime a person orders the turkey sandwich, the waiter is expected to tell them it has bacon on it

Yep. The point is that when you order a turkey sandwich, you don't expect other types of meat in it. I think the same thing is true in regard to a fish dish with caul fat, though perhaps a bit less so, since it sounds like it's part of a somewhat more intricate cooked dish, rather than a simple sandwich. If I ask for a "turkey sandwich on whole wheat with lettuce, tomato, red onion, and provolone cheese," I didn't ask for bacon, and no-one should include bacon without asking me if that's OK (and I'd probably say "No"). I think it's completely ridiculous to expect someone ordering a turkey sandwich to think s/he has any reason to say "I don't want any bacon with that." 99.99999% of the time, someone saying that would be considered a total weirdo: "What?! Didn't you ask for a turkey sandwich? There's no bacon in that!"

If you order a turkey sandwich what you should get is a sandwich in which the main ingredient is turkey. Now turkey on its own can be fairly bland and I often add a little "extra something" to kick it up a bit, which may be chutney or condiments, but may well be a slice of ham or some crumbled bacon. It's the addition of these little extras (along with decent basic quality) which make some eateries more attractive than others. If you have the server describe the individual components where do you stop? What's in the dressing, what's in the bread, what went into the stock, is it organic, is it local?

Now if you have a health problem with some kinds of food then you're perfectly entitled to ask for the exact composition of your dish. If you're lucky and everything is made from scratch on the premises (or is from fully informed suppliers) then you should be given a complete and honest answer, but in some cases you're just going to have to do without because commercially sourced ingredients do not have the necessary provenance.

On to the vegetarian thing, and why vegetarians seem to come in for more than their fair share of abuse. On the basis that man has evolved to be an omnivore there are two (and a half) good reasons for being a vegetarian, the first is that your religion forbids meat, the second is that you have some medical problem with it (and the half is that you actually dislike the taste and/or texture of meat). As far as I can tell (at least in the US and Europe) these form the minority of declared vegetarians. It seems that most people are vegetarian as a lifestyle choice based upon some kind of misplaced anthropomorphism or over-sensitivity to the realities of the food chain - "Meat is murder". Well yes, to eat meat we have to kill animals, but so do many other carnivores and omnivores in nature "red in tooth and claw". Our responsibility as higher beings is to do this as ethically, painlessly and humanely as possible, not to throw up our hands up in horror and declare the process "barbaric". Thus people who adopt this lifestyle attitude (many with deeply held moral beliefs about it) are seen by omnivores as "not quite right, out of touch with reality" and as people who can resist the siren call of bacon being cooked, have no ideas about some of the real pleasures of life.

[Ron Johnson]

Yep. The point is that when you order a turkey sandwich, you don't expect other types of meat in it.

If I had a serius food allergy, I would not expect anything. No, strike that, I would expect the worst. So I would always ask. I know what I am allergic to, the restaurant does not.

Edited March 12, 2003 by Ron Johnson (log)

[tommy]

Yep. The point is that when you order a turkey sandwich, you don't expect other types of meat in it. I think the same thing is true in regard to a fish dish with caul fat, though perhaps a bit less so, since it sounds like it's part of a somewhat more intricate cooked dish, rather than a simple sandwich. If I ask for a "turkey sandwich on whole wheat with lettuce, tomato, red onion, and provolone cheese," I didn't ask for bacon, and no-one should include bacon without asking me if that's OK (and I'd probably say "No").

if you're referring to paul's example, i'm not sure that's the way the sandwich was ordered. i think we're all in agreeance, to put it in fred durst's words, that if you order a sandwich with x,y,z,a,b,c, and r, then you'll get just that.

also, i thought we all determined that fish dishes, at least at the places i eat, are often made with meat based sauces.

[Rail Paul]

Yep. The point is that when you order a turkey sandwich, you don't expect other types of meat in it. I think the same thing is true in regard to a fish dish with caul fat, though perhaps a bit less so, since it sounds like it's part of a somewhat more intricate cooked dish, rather than a simple sandwich. If I ask for a "turkey sandwich on whole wheat with lettuce, tomato, red onion, and provolone cheese," I didn't ask for bacon, and no-one should include bacon without asking me if that's OK (and I'd probably say "No").

if you're referring to paul's example, i'm not sure that's the way the sandwich was ordered. i think we're all in agreeance, to put it in fred durst's words, that if you order a sandwich with x,y,z,a,b,c, and r, then you'll get just that.

also, i thought we all determined that fish dishes, at least at the places i eat, are often made with meat based sauces.

In my example, the sandwiches were delivered for many weeks without any bacon. Suddenly, and without any expectation or notice, bacon was added.

Rather than a casual or promiscuous sandwich encounter at a lunch counter, the analogy would be closer to a valued and familiar restaurant deciding to add an unexpected and offensive food element to a previously experienced meal.

[tommy]

Rather than a casual or promiscuous sandwich encounter at a lunch counter, the analogy would be closer to a valued and familiar restaurant deciding to add an unexpected and offensive food element to a previously experienced meal.

this happens quite often in my experience. however, i think we need to get away from using words like "offensive" in this discussion, as it's all very clearly subjective.

[Bux]

One of the things that always amuses me about online restaurant discussions is that when the subject is not a particular restaurant, but what to expect or how to deal with situations in a restaurant, is that each participant often has a specific image of a restaurant in mind. When I order a turkey sandwich in a diner or luncheonette I have very different standards for both my expectations of what I will get and for my own behavior, than when I go to Blue Hill for dinner. It's not reasonable to compare the standard for a turkey sandwich at a lunch counter with a main course of salmon in a relatively high end restaurant.

As tommy noted, it's not ureasonable to expect that there's a good chance some meat suace or product came in contact with your fish in a very high end restaurant. It may be true that a majority of diners don't really understand what happens in the kitchen, but that's an industry problem or the diner's problem. It's hard to fault a single restaurant for conforming to the norm.

[Wilfrid]

On the one hand allergies, on the other hand dietary restrictions, and on the unexpected third hand things people might not like or want. Lethal peanuts, irreligious bacon, creepy caul fat.

Jeniac42 was right. Imagine your server having to pre-guess and pre-address, for every customer, even just the most likely ingredients on the menu to cause illness, religious offence or squeamish. If you need to know about caul fat, do you also need to know if something's fried in lard? By the time your server has introduced his or her self, dealt with these ingredient issues, and listed the specials, it'll be time to go home.

A plea for realism.

[Bux]

... a waiter at CB explained that the vegetarian sounding squash soup contained meat as did the rissotto.  (why they wer unable to accomodate a request to do this with vegetable stock I don't know).

I assume you are talking about the risotto. A long simmered pureed soup can't be made to order at the last minute, but even making the risotto with vegetable stock would assume there was a vegetable stock on hand. There's no reason to believe that a complex vegetable stock might be available in any particular restuarant if there was not a dish on the menu that made use of it. I'm not sure if this is Cafe Boulud or Craft Bar, but a good vegetable broth takes longer to make than does risotto and it's the sort of thing a restuarant makes during prep time and not when every station is busy with preparing orders. I'd bet that if most diners made their needs known a day ahead of time, they'd get better results. Many restaurants have menus online and most will fax a copy of the menu. I'm not saying the diner has a duty to do this, only that he might have a better meal as a result, and I emphasize "might." I can't guarantee it will always ensure getting what you need or want.