Ghee stuff - Season it!

[A Scottish Chef]

There's a lot that can be done with Ghee's and oils when preparing to cook indian cuisine. Conversely, you need do nothing to them prior to use, but we take the trouble because of the eternal search for flavour, flavour and some more flavour.

In answer to your first question about Vegetable Ghee and why I use it, Suvir, I have the following information;

1. It's largely made from an extraction of palm oil. The better varieties use only natural colourings and flavourings. I use Khyber brand which I have found to be very good indeed. It has a natural appearance, a gentle aroma and is very versatile in the cooking of Indian dishes. This one also has a very high smoking point which adds to it's versatility. Some, however, are truly awful. I'll name one to avoid if it's permissable.

2. Vegetable Ghee, due to the absence of dairy produce, is perfect for vegans as well as vegetarians. For me this is a simple solution/answer to questions from customers about the oils we use for vegetarians.

3. Vegetable Ghee's can be completely free of cholesterol. Khyber certainly is

4. It's is far, far cheaper than butter Ghee. I can buy a 2Kg tub of butter Ghee for £19.95, but for the same money I can buy nearly 30Kg of vegetable Ghee. No way is butter ghee 15 times better. It's simply different, but not so radically different as to have a negative impact on flavour. The price point is important to me because of the market I serve.

5. The production of Vegetable Ghee is a worrying economic consideration in parts of India. Many farmers agriculturaly prioritise land to produce oils desirable for Vegetable Ghee production leading to problems with land for the feeding of cows.

6. Vegetable Ghee lends itself perfectly to gentle seasonings to add to it's flavour prior to use.

Point 6 is where this all kicked off in another thread so I'll add more as this thread develops. I'd love to hear about others uses and manipulations of Ghee.

Edited February 23, 2003 by A Scottish Chef (log)

[Suvir Saran]

What is that awful brand of Vegetable Ghee that you were mentioning?

Please share the name... so we are all warned.

What is the difference if any between vegetable ghee and margarine or shortening?

Do you use vegetable ghee only for Indian cooking or for other cuisines as well?

How did you find it in the first place?

[Simon Majumdar]

I would have to disagree on the quality argument.

I can´t argue from an economic point of view but butter Ghee has always, imho been better for taste and quality than vegetable ghee.

If I don´t cook in butter ghee, I would use, for home cooking anyway, a vegetable oil

S

[Suvir Saran]

I would have to disagree on the quality argument.

I can´t argue from an economic point of view but butter Ghee has always, imho been better for taste and quality than vegetable ghee.

If I don´t cook in butter ghee, I would use, for home cooking anyway, a vegetable oil

S

I end up doing what you do Simon.

But I know for a fact many Indians use shortening with a great sense of pride and respect. IN fact some claim and believe it makes certain dishes taste better.

[Simon Majumdar]

Yes, I´ve met some Gujarati´s too

I would love, in fact demand, some examples of dishes where shortening is better

S

[Suvir Saran]

Yes, I´ve met some Gujarati´s too  

I would love, in fact demand, some examples of dishes where shortening is better

S

Who do you think will give us that list?

[A Scottish Chef]

I would have to disagree on the quality argument.

I can´t argue from an economic point of view but butter Ghee has always, imho been better for taste and quality than vegetable ghee.

If I don´t cook in butter ghee, I would use, for home cooking anyway, a vegetable oil

S

It's difficult to know how you would argue on the premise of qaulity alone. Butter ghee is quite different from vegetable. Perhaps not as pronounced a difference as comparing apples with oranges, for example, but it would be an unfair comparison to make on a qualitative basis I feel.

Still, I know the results from vegetable ghee can be excellent. I always season it with garlic and ginger, and, depending on what dish I use it for, sometimes also with peppercorns and chillies, both dried and fresh.

I wonder, Simon, if you were to sit down to two curries and try them both if you could determine which one was made with butter or vegetable ghee? How confident would you be? I think if the dish with the vegetable is well made you would struggle

Next time you are making a curry at home, try this. Take some vegetable ghee, turn it into a pot and melt it gently, add the ginger and garlic and heat until the garlic browns then drain the ghee. Whilst it cools, add a dozen mixed peppercorns and two or three dried red chillies. When it is near to cool, re-drain and return the ghee to it's tub. It will reset itself.

Let's say you are making a dopiaza - take two tablespoons of the ghee, melt slowly and add to this two whole fresh green chillies and half a teaspoon of zeera seeds. Cook gently until the chillies skin starts to discolour then remove the chillies and finish your curry.

I defy you to tell me this will not produce a fantastic basis for your dish.

Edited February 24, 2003 by A Scottish Chef (log)

[A Scottish Chef]

What is that awful brand of Vegetable Ghee that you were mentioning?

Please share the name... so we are all warned.

What is the difference if any between vegetable ghee and margarine or shortening?

Do you use vegetable ghee only for Indian cooking or for other cuisines as well?

How did you find it in the first place?

Two brands spring readily to mind.

1. Pride - Yeeuch!

2. Consumer (snappy name that one) - Even worse than Yeeuch!

I'll need to research a little about the differences between margarine and shortening. First things that spring to mind are an absence of chemical additives, the oils used in production and of course the appearance of the ghee is markedly different. I'm unaware of the properties of shortening and certainly I've never thought of using it for my take on Indin cuisine. I'd be interested to know of any experiences or suggestions you have for it's use. Or, indeed, why not to use it.

I sear both mushrooms and new potatoes in the vegetable ghee. When I say sear, I mean I heat the ghee until it is smoking then add the mushrooms and sauté very quickly - about thirty seconds. For that one I finish with ground black pepper and a dash of light soy. MMMmmmmmmmm

Again, Babu's influence at work. I'd never heard of vegetable ghee until I worked under him.

[Simon Majumdar]

I would have to disagree on the quality argument.

I can´t argue from an economic point of view but butter Ghee has always, imho been better for taste and quality than vegetable ghee.

If I don´t cook in butter ghee, I would use, for home cooking anyway, a vegetable oil

S

It's difficult to know how you would argue on the premise of qaulity alone. Butter ghee is quite different from vegetable. Perhaps not as pronounced a difference as comparing apples with oranges, for example, but it would be an unfair comparison to make on a qualitative basis I feel.

Still, I know the results from vegetable ghee can be excellent. I always season it with garlic and ginger, and, depending on what dish I use it for, sometimes also with peppercorns and chillies, both dried and fresh.

I wonder, Simon, if you were to sit down to two curries and try them both if you could determine which one was made with butter or vegetable ghee? How confident would you be? I think if the dish with the vegetable is well made you would struggle

Next time you are making a curry at home, try this. Take some vegetable ghee, turn it into a pot and melt it gently, add the ginger and garlic and heat until the garlic browns then drain the ghee. Whilst it cools, add a dozen mixed peppercorns and two or three dried red chillies. When it is near to cool, re-drain and return the ghee to it's tub. It will reset itself.

Let's say you are making a dopiaza - take two tablespoons of the ghee, melt slowly and add to this two whole fresh green chillies and half a teaspoon of zeera seeds. Cook gently until the chillies skin starts to discolour then remove the chillies and finish your curry.

I defy you to tell me this will not produce a fantastic basis for your dish.

You are on

but, if I am right, I shall hunt you down like the cur you most surely will be proved to be

S

[Suvir Saran]

There are kachoris (stuffed pooris) also called Berwis that many (MANY) Indian chefs will only make with vegetable ghee.

Then there are samosas and pakoras (bahjjis/bhajia etc) that again many home chefs will make with vegetable ghee for they find them flakier.

Then there are those home chefs that find their bodies react negatively to ghee or vegetable oil, and so they use vegetable ghee.

Many (millions or rathers scores of millions) use vegetable ghee in India. And they swear by it. To many of them money is not the concern at all.

[A Scottish Chef]

I shall hunt you down like the cur you most surely will be proved to be

Simon

We Scots are used to such tales of bravado from Angerlanders such as yourself. At times like this I'm always reminded of a tale of an invading English Army when they finally get to the border entrance of God's country.

The leader of Angerlands army spies a lone Scot atop a hill some fifty yards from his legions. The Scot is yelling all sorts of abuse and aggresively challenging the English to, "Come ahead ya bams!"

The leader turns to a captain and says, "Send two men to kill the barbarian!"

Two men are sent up the hill to silence the lone Scot, chasing him over the brow of the hill to capture him. After five minutes the Scot returns to the top of the hill and returns to his abusive comments.

The leader, now annoyed, turns to the captain and says, "Send a dozen men and get that swine killed this time!"

Twelve men troop up the hill to execute their orders. After ten minutes the Scot returns to the top of the hill and is now openly laughing at the best the English have been able to do against him.

The leader, now furious, turns again to the captain and says, "Enough! Send fifty men and kill that Scot, bring his body to me so we can use him as a warning to any others we come across!"

Fifty men troop up the hill determined to see off this lone, crazed Scot. The sound of a violent battle fills the air and after twenty minutes a lone Englishmen runs back down the hill screaming for help.

"Captain! Captain! It's a trap! There are two of the bastards!"

Edit. P.S. Sorry, Suvir, I should have said the English army were on a raid to steal my stocks of seasoned vegetable ghee

Edited February 24, 2003 by A Scottish Chef (log)

[Suvir Saran]

Back to ghee and vegetable ghee please...

[A Scottish Chef]

There are kachoris (stuffed pooris) also called Berwis that many (MANY) Indian chefs will only make with vegetable ghee.

Suvir, I'd be very interested to know how to make these. Are there recipes on eGullet already or, if not,. would you mind sharing some ideas as to how best to make them?

Yours in anticipation

[Suvir Saran]

There are kachoris (stuffed pooris) also called Berwis that many (MANY) Indian chefs will only make with vegetable ghee.

Suvir, I'd be very interested to know how to make these. Are there recipes on eGullet already or, if not,. would you mind sharing some ideas as to how best to make them?

Yours in anticipation

ASC,

Please email me at chef@suvir.com

From home, I shall be happy to send you the recipe.

They are easy and delicious.

I am sure others have recipes handy and can post one sooner.

[Stone]

I've been taught to fear coconut oil (and palm oil) for the high content of bad fats. Is this a factor for you?

[Suvir Saran]

I've been taught to fear coconut oil (and palm oil) for the high content of bad fats.  Is this a factor for you?

For this you (Me), it is not a factor.

But I hardly ever cook with it. Maybe a drop here or there. But never as a base.

For the other "you's", I am just as anxious as you (Stone) to get their take on this.

[A Scottish Chef]

I've been taught to fear coconut oil (and palm oil) for the high content of bad fats.  Is this a factor for you?

It's certainly a factor for me. I'm diabetic and so controlling my fat intake to avoid saturated and hydrogenated fats is very important.

I'm a little perplexed now as the labelling on the brand of vegetable ghee I use is clearly marked as cholesterol free, and yet I was confident the oil used in it's creation would have been palm oil.

I'm going to call the manufaturer to clarify this point you raised, Stone. Thanks for your question.

[Stone]

I'm a little perplexed now as the labelling on the brand of vegetable ghee I use is clearly marked as cholesterol free, and yet I was confident the oil used in it's creation would have been palm oil.

Any vegetable oil (and any vegetable product) is cholesterol free. However, palm, coconut and other "exotic" or "tropical" oils (as I've seen them called), have an extremely high percentage of saturated fat. I believe much higher than the fattiest cuts of beef. Many fast food snack companies were taken to task a while back for advertising the use of vegetable oil and insinuating (at least that was the claim) that it was healthier.

(Of course, the pendulum may have swung back, and for all I know, coconut oil could be the new health food.)

Edited February 24, 2003 by Stone (log)

[A Scottish Chef]

Stone, thank you very much for this information. Every time I feel I'm getting somewhere in my quest for food knowledge, eGullet and it's members offer timely, educated reminders of how vast and complex a subject it is we talk of.