Vintage chocolate

[mamster]

Laurie brought me a gift from Portland: a bar of 2002 Valrhona Gran Couva single-estate chocolate, which she bought at Pastaworks. The chocolate is from Trinidad. It's a 62% bar, which is not my top choice (around 70 is perfect). It's the kind of stuff Shaw was writing about in last month's Elle.

Is there any place in Seattle that sells this sort of thing? Laurie said there were two other varieties at Pastworks. The best selection of vintage chocolate I've seen is at the Bon Marche in Paris, which is less than convenient. Help me become a chocolate nerd.

[Steve Klc]

Move to New York or Paris. (I know, but you asked for help.)

Seriously, sounds like you should compare against the higher end (more expensive) Cluizel--which has that wide range of 72% varietals--and also against the E. Guittard 65% like "Ecuador Nacional" and the 64% "L'Harmonie."

[mamster]

I've had the basic 72% Cluizel (and also the 85%) and it's great. This seems like as good a reason as any to move to Paris.

[trillium]

Just mailorder from chocosphere...it's not that bad for shipping and their prices are pretty decent. The Cluizel 99% ("contains a very small amount of sugar, orange blossom and spice")is going into a chocolate orange ancho bundt cake tomorrow...

regards,

trillium

[heyjude]

Mamster, I prefer the term wonk to nerd. I hope we will all become one or the other when we have our PNW eGullet Chocolate and Port tasting party in March. More details to follow, but we should all be doing a little prep by eating chocolate and researching our subject. If we should mail order, lets pool our resources and knowledge. Maybe we could get a Portlander to bring up a Jaciva mousse cake. Any suggestions for the date and format of this party are welcome.

[Fat Guy]

Mamster, find the best two or three pastry chefs in town and find out how they source their chocolate. This should connect you to the relevant dealers of Valrhona, Cluizel, Cacao Barry, etc. -- which may very well be just one person. The dealer may not actually stock the more obscure vintage-dated and single-estate stuff but should be able to special order it. Chocosphere, in Portland, is indeed a comprehensive source but pricewise you'll do better if you can get hooked up with a restaurant supplier. Then write about it for the Webzine. Thanks. Your editor, -Steven A. Shaw

[mamster]

Mamster, find the best two or three pastry chefs in town

Great, I'll ask nightscotsman.

[nightscotsman]

[tsquare]

Not to sound like a broken record, but have you tried ChefShop? For instant gratification, you can visit the warehouse, or mail order. Not exhaustive, but some interesting options:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/chefshop/choco...colatebars.html

Not sure that they have varietals though...

[nightscotsman]

Not to sound like a broken record, but have you tried ChefShop? For instant gratification, you can visit the warehouse, or mail order. Not exhaustive, but some interesting options:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/chefshop/choco...colatebars.html

Not sure that they have varietals though...

Cool - I'll have to stop by there this week. Here is the warehouse info from the web site:

Our address: 1435 Elliot Avenue West, between the Queen Anne and Magnolia neighborhoods north of downtown Seattle.

Our retail location: We have a retail space in front of the warehouse, where people can come in, taste most anything we sell, and purchase store-only items, and local online customers can pick up their orders.

The warehouse: In the back we store, pack, and ship our products, host events, and create the web site.

[RandyB]

I was at the Salon du Chocolat in Paris last November. I got to try several of the varietals - single estate chocolates - from Valrhona and others. The sellers were a bit circumspect in making claims about the product. I think they were wise. Frankly, the single estate products are not really distinguishable from other, high end chocolates with the same national provenance.

You need to remember that cocoa solids (cocal powder plus cocoa butter) are a highly processed product, even before being recombined into what we think of as "chocolate." That isn't a negative. It takes a great deal of care and skill at every step of the way to produce what Valrhona and Cluizel sell as chocolate bars. In this sense, it is less like coffee or wine, where so much of the original product comes though. The variations in Criollos (the best type of cocoa beans) across Ecuador, say, are less than in grapes across Bordeaux. However, the Criollos from Venezuala may be very different from those from Sumatra, and may also vary frojm year to year. The differences in texture, aroma, longeur en bouche, etc., come more from the processing than from the particular plantation or estate. By processing, I also include the blending of cocoa solids from different beans to make the final product, just as is done with wine.

The Club des Croqueurs de Chocolat in France gives the Valrhona Guanaja 70% the highest rating (16.9/20)for a chocolate bar. Cluizel Chocolat Amer Brut 72% gets only 11.7/20. The Croqueurs suggest that Cluizel is more successful with his 60% bar.

While I like Cluizel (especially the bar with bits of orange peel), I agree that the Valrhona is superior. You can get Valrhona Noir Amer in bulk from online sources. You can also get smaller bars at a lower price/pound from Trader Joes. TJ also has other Valrhona chocolate with lower cocoa percentage, for different tastes.

Final comment about cocoa solids percentage: It can be misleading. All it really tells you is how much sugar is in the bar. For example, a 70% bar has 30% sugar. (I'm assuming no milk, fruits, etc.) But you won't know the balance between cocoa powder and cocoa butter. This can vary significantly and effect the flavor and texture. It also won't tell you anything about the quality of the cocoa solids.

[mamster]

Thanks for the info, RandyB. Every time I think I'm starting to understand something, like plain chocolate, for god's sake, it turns out there are twelve more layers to peel back. On the whole, that's positive.

[RandyB]

I just discovered that Sur la Table at the Pike Place Market sells Valrhona, Cluizel, and several other brands of higher quality chocolate in various sizes and strengths.

A look at the Valrhona "white" chocolate I saw there illustrates my point about the cocoa powder/butter balance. The bar says "35% minimum cocoa solids." It actually has no cocoa at all on the ingredients list, only cocoa butter. Pure cocoa butter is flavorless. So this really isn't a "chocolate" bar at all in the sense of having a real chocolate flavor, only a texture.

[nightscotsman]

Pure cocoa butter is flavorless. So this really isn't a "chocolate" bar at all in the sense of having a real chocolate flavor, only a texture.

I beg to differ. Unless it has been overprocessed and deodorized, coco butter does have flavor and aroma. Otherwise that fake "white coating" made with vegetable fat would be indistinguishable from the real thing. I'm holding a bar of "100% pure coco butter" right now and it has a woderful, subtly rich scent of chocolate.

I realize many people don't consider white chocolate to be "real" chocolate and find it to be too sweet, and that's fine - personal preference. But to say it has no flavor at all is just not true.

[RandyB]

Nightscotsman is partially correct and I was imprecise. When I referred to "pure cocoa butter" I was referring to deodorized cocoa butter. I didn't use the term because in English the word "deodorized" has a more negative connotation than the word does in French cooking. It does not mean overprocessed, however. It just means that the parts of the cocoa powder that could lend flavor are removed to leave a purified butter.

By leaving some trace of the cocoa powder in the cocoa butter, one can have a small hint of the chocolate flavor in a "white chocolate" bar. I just find it hard to call that "chocolate".

[nwells]

Funny to read this topic. I was just wondering if there was a place for me within egullet and maybe this is it. I just returned home from picking up my order at Provvista (a specialty food supplier in Portland). I bought some Schokinag Special Edition 28% white chocolate and some 38% milk chocolate of the same caliber. I frequently buy Cocoa Berry 60% pistoles and Schokinag Extreme, which is 75%.

My favorite chocolate is Espirit des Alpes, which I think is 72%. Provvista doesn't have that so I get it from a different importer.

One of the best things about buying chocolate from a professional source is that I can buy pistoles, or buttons. These are great for melting (and munching) and weighing is a breeze.

I am more than willing to help you Seattlites get your hands on some chocolate. Chocophile.com is a good start, and there is more out there than what they offer...

Neeley

[trillium]

But Provvista only sells wholesale, no? I thought they didn't sell to the "public". That bums me out.

regards,

trillium

[nwells]

They do sell only wholesale. I was suggesting that I could be a go between for people that were interested. I'm not sure, but maybe this should be defined more by emails. I don't know the parameters for this site.

Neeley

[Schielke]

Hmmm, do they have any kind of catalog?

Ben

[RandyB]

One of the best things about buying chocolate from a professional source is that I can buy pistoles, or buttons. These are great for melting (and munching) and weighing is a breeze.

Neeley

Chocosphere.com sells chocolate buttons for chefs at retail. I know they carry both Valrhona and Callebaut. I don't know about other brands. I much prefer these two brands for cooking over any of the German or Swiss makers.

I've also seen some chocolate buttons (which Valrhona calls "feves", after the cocoa beans) for sale at Sur la Table at the Pike Place Market.

By the way, Chocosphere also carries a full line of the "estate" chocolates from Valrhona and Michel Cluizel for anyone who wants to try them. They are expensive. As I've noted above, I personally don't think they are worth it.

One of the minor debates I heard at the Exposition du Chocolat in Paris was over the use of "additives." Most producers use soya lecithin as a stabilizer. Cluizel is one of the few who doesn't. He's also one of the smallest chocolate producers. I still prefer Valrhona, although I do have a lot of respect for Cluizel surviving a tough market.

[nwells]

Provvista does distribute a catalog (no pictures unfortunately). They have about 3 1/2 pages of chocolate listings and sell by some items by the pound and many more in larger quantities. They are very honest about the fact that their prices are out of date almost as the catalog goes to print, but they quote accurately on the phone. I would be happy to pass on specifics if anyone knows they are looking for something particular...or wants any recommendations.

Neeley

[tsquare]

The new Pike Place Market and Deli - North end (same space as the old market and deli) - has lots of swell specialty groceries! Saw 16 oz cans of Schokinag chocolate bits from Germany for under $10, plus smaller bars and cocoa, some interestingly flavored (earl grey, green anise) bars of Dolfin (?), and a bunch of stuff you usually have to mail order - oils, viengars, preserves, etc. Didn't ask what they are trying to do, but I wish them well.

[Schielke]

Where in the North End is this place located? I am always on the lookout for that kind of place in line with my commute home.

[tsquare]

On Pike Place between Stewart and Virginia Streets in the northernmost block of the Pike Place Market.