Off the Menu at 15 Restaurants

Basildog · February 18, 2003

I think your getting the impression that i run daily speacils alot.I don't..i'm printing a menu for lunch...then after service writing another one for the evening.

None of my regulars come expecting specials, so your question about how would i react to customers not returning because i kept running out of specials is moot.Sorry

Charlene Leonard · February 18, 2003

Does anyone think that because one spends a lot of money that this entitles one to a better choice of food than is offered to others who spend less?
i do. although your wording is a little strong.

sorry, wasn't suggesting anyone did, just posing a question. How about the person who is taking his wife out for a 10th anniversary which he has saved up for, he is willing to spend a lot of money, at the same time a regular big bucks man comes in, there is only two portions left of the 'foie gras and sea urchin 10 ways', who should be offered it?

Bux · February 18, 2003

There are things chefs do for clients who drop large sums at the restaurant because, quite frankly, this is a business and none of us get to eat the chef's food if the restaurant doesn't run at a profit, and there are things chefs do for diners they respect on the basis of their food knowledge and appreciation. Steve P, sometimes makes ambiguous references to connoisseurs who have deep pockets and thus it's not always easy to understand what drives the chef in those cases. I should imagine that if I were a chef, there's nothing more that I'd like than to know I have a client who not only appreciates my food, but won't leave when I have to raise my prices. I suspect I'd do a lot to make him happy once I'd identified him. Nevertheless we should not dismiss the things that chefs do for love of feeding the connoisseur no matter his spending patterns. Now back to Shaw's lesson on how to convice a chef you're a connoiseur of his food. Reading that lesson is much more fruitful than arguing against the concept of vip.

Fat Guy · February 18, 2003

Really what this WSJ article is about is how to be an instant VIP. Now that's an interesting subject. The reality is that there are things you can do on just one visit to increase your chances of being VIPed. But these reporters don't have sufficient understanding of what it means to be a VIP, so they can't develop a strategy for pursuing that goal. Instead they just sit there and insist out loud that a restaurant cook something special. I'm surprised so many restaurants accommodated or pretended to accommodate the request when phrased that way by first-time customers. But then again I'm not in the hospitality business, and that's good news for everyone. The thing is, the instant VIP concept is cute but it has to be pursued conscientiously and with a background of experience, or at least with an experienced teacher. Otherwise all you're doing is acting like those sleazy guys who go to Vegas with the express purpose of getting as many comps as possible. They sit around and figure out how little they can gamble for how short a time and still get show tickets or a buffet line pass. The game becomes getting comps. It's kind of sad.

russ parsons · February 18, 2003

How about the person who is taking his wife out for a 10th anniversary which he has saved up for, he is willing to spend a lot of money, at the same time a regular big bucks man comes in, there is only two portions left of the 'foie gras and sea urchin 10 ways', who should be offered it?

let's put it this way: you own an extremely competitive fairly low-margin business that depends on discretionary income (people don't HAVE to eat at expensive restaurants and there are many, many to choose from). You've got two portions of "something special" left. You can give it to the customer who has never been to your place before and will probably never be there again, or you can give it to the customer who regularly supports your business. which are you going to choose?

Bux · February 18, 2003

The person who is taking his wife out for a 10th anniversary for which he has saved up and for which he is willing to spend a lot of money. The fat cat can more easily be placated with all sorts of comped luxuries so he forgets about the foie gras/sea urchin 10 way dish.

That of course assumes the restaurant knows the little guy is not just a tourist eating over his head and has saved up to treat his wife on this special occasion. I hope he made that clear when he reserved. Of course we're also assuming the the fat cat is, although apparently healthy, within days or weeks of dying from a terminal disease and has been asking for weeks to be informed of when this dish would be available. Interestingly enough, two, if not three, Steves have offered good advice for both of those parties if they're so keen on getting the most out of a meal.

Basildog · February 18, 2003

You've got two portions of "something special" left. You can give it to the customer who has never been to your place before and will probably never be there again, or you can give it to the customer who regularly supports your business. which are you going to choose?

You want the answer to be the regular don't you?

How about the first timer getting it, because you might just turn him into a regular?

But that would be preferential, and i don't believe in that, so it would be the guy who ordered it first :raz:

Bux · February 18, 2003

Really what this WSJ article is about is how to be an instant VIP. Now that's an interesting subject. The reality is that there are things you can do on just one visit to increase your chances of being VIPed. But these reporters don't have sufficient understanding of what it means to be a VIP, so they can't develop a strategy for pursuing that goal. Instead they just sit there and insist out loud that a restaurant cook something special. I'm surprised so many restaurants accommodated or pretended to accommodate the request when phrased that way by first-time customers.

Could someone who read the article tell me if they can determine how often these reporters actually got special food as opposed to how often thought they got something special. I'm not inclined to take the clueless reporter's word for all that much.

Steve Plotnicki · February 18, 2003

the instant VIP concept

This is up there with 7 Minute Abs.

But that would be preferential, and i don't believe in that, so it would be the guy who ordered it first

Basildog - Well all you are saying is that your decision isn't based on business judgement, it is based on your personal sense of right and wrong. And I am not criticizing it. But at the types of restaurants we are describing in this thread, with huge overheads and high rent to pay, where they are serving 200 diners a night, and they have a high percentage of VIP customers, good business judgement is paramount. And many of the restaurants we are talking about, would go out of business if they adopted your business model.

Suzanne F · February 18, 2003

Or they would develop a lot of regulars, more than they could handle, because people felt they were being treated fairly and honestly. And then they would have to expand.

Edited February 18, 2003 by Suzanne F (log)

Basildog · February 18, 2003

And many of the restaurants we are talking about, would go out of business if they adopted your business model.

I,m not asking them to adopt my methods.All i can do is run my place how i feel is right :biggrin:

Wilfrid · February 18, 2003

It's worth taking a step back and considering how other retail business treat customers who are either regulars or establish themselves early on as big spenders, as opposed to first time customers, possible one-time customers (tourists) and those who don't appear to want to spend much money.

The extra attention someone gets if they spend a lot of money, especially regularly, may or may not be a matter for regret. But there seems to me no reason to single out the restaurant business and jump all over it.

As for first-time VIP treatment, whether one's considering dining out, buying jewellery or antiques, or shopping for clothes, I think the trick in a nutshell - if you actually want to add value to the service you get - is to give the appearance of falling into the potential regular/big spender category. And there are all kinds of ways to do that. Of course, in an ideal world, everyone would get decent service anyway.

Bux · February 18, 2003

And many of the restaurants we are talking about, would go out of business if they adopted your business model.
I,m not asking them to adopt my methods.All i can do is run my place how i feel is right

You have a luxury Alain Ducasse does not. On the other hand, he might have a few of his own. :biggrin:

Bux · February 18, 2003

the instant VIP concept
This is up there with 7 Minute Abs.

Now there's a marketing concept. You wear it under your shirt. It's invisible to everyone in the dining room. It offers instant vip treatment or your money back. It costs $19.95 and is not available in stores.

Fat Guy · February 18, 2003

Of course, in an ideal world, everyone would get decent service anyway.

It bears repeating that different people have different ideas of what constitutes good service or good food. What is commonly perceived as VIP treatment is sometimes (not always, of course) just customization: one customer might be revolted by the special dish that makes another customer's night special.

Steve Plotnicki · February 18, 2003

Or they would develop a lot of regulars, more than they could handle, because people felt they were being treated fairly and honestly.

If this was true, VIP treatment wouldn't exist and VIP's wouldn't be such a big part of the business. But they are so obviously that isn't a large factor.

I don't know what percentage VIP's make up of annual business, but I would love to have a Danny Meyer type tell us. I think that the people here would be very surprised when they heard the percentage. In fact I think the percentage is so high, that many restaurants you know and love would go out of business without those types of customers.

But I still can't get past the following. To disassociate yourself from the VIP process, or from any process that helps you from get the best possible meal, it means you will probably eat less well then others. Yet everyone states that they go to restaurants to eat well. A restaurant should be about getting the best possible food. Why are people willing to compromise that standard for a chance to get the same food as, actually, the perception they are getting the same food as everyone else. Why do people need to express non-gastronomic principals at a restaurant in a manner that lowers the quality of what they eat?

Fat Guy · February 18, 2003

Plotnicki's analogy to bespoke tailoring is a good one. For one thing, custom-tailored suits increase dramatically in value to a person who doesn't fit well into an off-the-rack suit. If your proportions are well-matched to a particular line of excellent off-the-rack suits -- such as Oxxford -- you can be as happy for less than $1000 than a more uniquely proportioned individual can be for $2500. For another thing, some people don't really care for all the extras -- particularly the choices -- offered by custom tailors. They just don't want to decide whether or not to have working buttons on their cuffs, and they think it absurd that anybody would pay $30 per buttonhole to have that added on. They have no desire to have hand-sewn lapels with visible thread nor in a million years would they notice it on someone else's suit. They don't give a damn what an English back is, no less care to have one or to choose between it and another style of waistband. "Just give me a suit," is their attitude. And for still another thing, a person of middle class means who values custom tailoring can figure out ways to tap into that world -- he just has to be resourceful. He has to accept a more limited range of fabric choices, but can still have the best tailoring. He buys fewer suits but cares for them meticulously and accessorizes cleverly and tastefully so as to extend his apparent wardrobe. He skips a meal out on occasion to pay for his clothing habit.

He who doesn't want or need custom tailoring is not harmed by someone who does. They are two ships passing in the night.

He who does want or need something, but doesn't know how to get it, should take advantage of opportunities to learn. Like this one.

Charles Smith · February 18, 2003

I don't know what percentage VIP's make up of annual business, but I would love to have a Danny Meyer type tell us. I think that the people here would be very surprised when they heard the percentage.

In the high-end retail clothing world the numbers are staggering- something like 1000 customers do 70% of Bergdorf Goodman's business, for example. It wouldn't surprise me if the restaurant world is similar.

edited to fix quotes

Edited February 18, 2003 by Charles Smith (log)

stellabella · February 18, 2003

He who doesn't want or need custom tailoring is not harmed by someone who does. They are two ships passing in the night.
He who does want or need something, but doesn't know how to get it, should take advantage of opportunities to learn. Like this one.

i am totally in agreement here.

no one is more angered by social injustice than i am [though there are plenty who act more aggressively to try to "right" social wrongs]. but this is not about social injustice or money.

if the poor guy saves for ten years to buy his wife's anniversary dinner, whereas the movie mogul eats whatever he wants whenever he wants it, is the poor guy more "deserving"? maybe he has beat his poor wife every day for the last ten years, but he really loves her, in his way, and this is how he shows it. the chef can never know that, can s/he? the chef can't really be expected to decide which of two clients is the more "deserving" of the fine food.

this is about the desire to eat. of course there are folks who expect, demand, bully for VIP treatment; we all know these obnoxious clowns, we've waited on them, we live with them, we work with them, whatever. as long as the customer makes a polite and reasonable request, i don't see how this is somehow an attack on egalitarian values.

if, magically, i became wealthy, and the darling of the world's most celebrated chefs, and found myself treated to exquisite unique meals every time i dined out, i'd sing the hallelujah chorus. i'd also try to share my good fortune with as many folks as possible, and do my best to be a good citizen of the earth.

vengroff · February 18, 2003

Really what this WSJ article is about is how to be an instant VIP. Now that's an interesting subject. The reality is that there are things you can do on just one visit to increase your chances of being VIPed.

This is absolutely correct. One strategy that I find works very well is to identify a couple of dishes on the menu that are unusual in some way, for example because they use ingredients not typical of the cuisine of the restaurant, or because the preparations are unusual. Once these have been identified, you can engage your server in a conversation about these dishes, related dishes you may have had, how they differ, what sort of statements the chef is trying to make, etc.... If the server is good, the message will get back to the kitchen that you are a serious diner who is interested in something more than filling his stomach, impressing a client, or looking at the art on the walls. You may end up being offered tasting portions of a couple of dishes, one of the dozen really exceptional scallops the fish guy brought in this morning, a sampling of something the chef really likes but hasn't put on the menu because it's hard to make in quantity, etc...

In this case, you are depending on the staff's ability to recognize and communicate your interests to the kitchen. To the extent that they are able to do so, I am happy to compensate them with a larger gratuity.

macrosan · February 18, 2003

The obvious point at which the suit analogy breaks down is that a tailor advertises his offerings -- off the rack suits or custom suits. If a restaurant advertised "menu or off-menu meals", or "standard service or VIP service", then I would absolutely withdraw my last reservations about the practice.

Steve Klc, I'd like to thank you for your carefully crafted repsonses to my questions. They really have opened my eyes to how chefs think behind the scenes.

I really don't wish to sound patronizing, but I'd also like to comment on how in the last few pages all the personal heat has disappeared from the debate. I guess that's because people are being given a proper chance to explain their positions, and to clarify the inevitable misunderstandings that arise from over-hasty writing and reading of posts. I've found the debate interesting and instructive.

maggiethecat · February 18, 2003

I've been mulling over the bespoke tailoring analogy since first it was posted. Not sure it completely stands up. Viz.:

The fellow buying the good suit off the rack knows what he's getting, what he's paying for, and what to expect. The guy who flies to Rome for fittings likewise.

The Oxxford guy is unlikely, although he may be a great, regular and discerning customer at this retail establishment, expect the alterations guy to offer to rework the buttonholes by hand. Because he knows how much the customer would enjoy this VIP treatment.

And, should Mr. Richguy be stranded naked in Fargo with only an off the rack suit available: Doubt if he would either.

Ooops. Martin got there first!

Both men have a clear understanding from the get-go of what kind of service to expect, and don't feel that they would receive the same exact level of craftsmanship and coddling from the Neiman Marcus in the mall than they would at the dicreet place in the Via Veneto.

Edited February 18, 2003 by maggiethecat (log)

Suzanne F · February 18, 2003

But I still can't get past the following. To disassociate yourself from the VIP process, or from any process that helps you from get the best possible meal, it means you will probably eat less well then others. Yet everyone states that they go to restaurants to eat well. A restaurant should be about getting the best possible food. Why are people willing to compromise that standard for a chance to get the same food as, actually, the perception they are getting the same food as everyone else. Why do people need to express non-gastronomic principals at a restaurant in a manner that lowers the quality of what they eat?

As a diner, I do not dissociate from a process that will get me what I subjectively consider to be the best possible meal at that time and place. The simple point is that my parameters for what constitutes the "best possible meal" are very different from yours.

Mine include testing how the restaurant does what it normally does; that is, what seems to be their standard of cooking? Do they routinely add more or less salt than I like? Do they take luxury ingredients and ruin them with too much futzing around, or turn sows ears into beggar's purses? Do they take an overworked dish and turn it into something that astonishes me, or is it as boring there as everywhere else?

Service is not immune: early on, I establish that I am serious about food and highly interested in theirs -- usually by asking questions, or making comparisons to other, similar establishments. I'm fortunate that I don't have the severe dietary restrictions that you do, Steve. But I will quiz the staff on what is in a dish and how it is prepared, if I need that information to decide what to order (see paragraph above). But I do not start with the attitude of "the staff is going to be clueless and rude" -- no, I take that back; I assume they MAY be clueless (yes, even at Jean Georges or ADNY) and that it is incumbent upon me to make my wishes clear in the least adversarial way I can.

I daresay that you, Steve, would be surprised at how often something special is offered to me. Simply because I show that I care about what they're doing. But if not, if they "hold something back" for more regular or higher-spending customers? So what? I'm not there to prove how clever I am at outwitting their presumed schemes. I'm there to eat the best meal I can get in MY way. Which may be "less well" than you, by your standards. Again, so what?

Of course you are "entitled" to getting YOUR best possible meal, your way. Why do you not accept that your way is not everyone else's?

Edit: I apologize if this reignites the personal heat. But damn, it's really cold in my apartment today. :raz:

Edited February 18, 2003 by Suzanne F (log)

Wilfrid · February 18, 2003

I don't know what percentage VIP's make up of annual business, but I would love to have a Danny Meyer type tell us. I think that the people here would be very surprised when they heard the percentage. In fact I think the percentage is so high, that many restaurants you know and love would go out of business without those types of customers.

That is interesting, and I suspect it varies dramatically according to type of restaurant. I suspect Le Cirque and San Domenico, for example, would almost get along fine with only their regular customers.

Suzanne F · February 18, 2003

Well, Rao's for sure. :wink: But that's not in the same class, is it?

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