Off the Menu at 15 Restaurants

Bux · February 18, 2003

The issue here is knowing how to act and react in a restaurant...
There are people who demand special attention for their ego needs. I'm not sure the WSJ writers understand the difference and I'm not sure some of the participants of this thread may either.
Knowing how to act and react in a restaurant???? You are the customer for christsakes! You make it sound like they are doing you a favor.
And where do you get off saying that people who posted here who asked for the "chef to cook for them" want to push people around or feed their egos? What presumption!! So what of people who ask? Some of my best meals came from a chef-constructed tasting menu. Maybe it was on the carte maybe not. And if the guy says no, so what, you pick your food like anyone else. Sure, when you are are a friend of the house, it is almost de rigeur to say, "Tell Fernando to make me a nice meal." To do that in a place you never ate at would be kind of stupid.

What can I say bugsy, my momma just brought me up believing there was a proper way to act and an improper one. I don't go sneaking where I don't belong and I don't go to restaurants with an attitude to challenge them by trying to act out what I think others may be getting away with, without a clue as to what was really going down. My momma said that just because it was my nickel, I musn't go 'round being smart ass and that I had to learn the rules. You're a grown up. You know the rules as well as the rest of us.

You know I didn't say that anyone here wanted to push people around to feed an ego. There may be some disagreement in this thread about some things, but I think there's a genuine sense that those of us who go a bit out of our way to get special food are looking for special food for our gullet and not our ego. Those writers for the WSJ didn't seem to understand that from what I gather, but I'm not parting with the $79 that will buy me eight courses instead of five whether or not the chef offers to cook for me.

You know, in your haste to post as if the storm will cut your power or ISP, I don't believe you bothered to even read my post carefully.

Fat Guy · February 18, 2003

And another thing: I love getting free meals. The thing that's so great about being a food writer is that magazines and newspapers and government tourism organizations and all these other entities are always trying to buy you meals. It's great. But I get really annoyed when I smell an assignment that smells as though it was most likely concocted simply to allow the writers to eat a bunch of meals on the company dime. I wonder how much it cost the Wall Street Journal to produce this piece of dreck. Well, at least the writers scored 15 nice meals. We should all be so lucky.

Bux · February 18, 2003

Bux, don't you think your recent post is on the personal attack side? No names, but still... P.S. I'm not taking it personally, in particular. BUT, knowing how to act in a restaurant or in public goes both ways. When provoked, I WILL react. I see nothing wrong with expecting pleasant, helpful service. If it's not provided, why hang around? I'm not a masochist. And I don't throw away money on things I don't enjoy. I don't see what's wrong with that.
Elyse, I'm with you. While its always important to act decently in all situations- whether or not you are paying and whether or not you have any power over others- if you are coming to a restaurant to spend your money and would be best served by friendly, attentive and respectful, knowledgable service (who wouldn't?), then thats what you should get, nothing less. All of your requests that are made in a reasonable and respectful way should be addressed to the best of the restaurant's ability. Its a service industry after all.
A waitperson with attitude should be doing something else. And, if they are serving your table, you should be somewhere else if thats what you want. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Will either of you tell me what the hell you are talking about in reference to my post?

lizziee · February 18, 2003

Fat Guy,

I just finished reading your encore and I think it should be the banner for all fine diners everywhere. Anybody can be a VIP. It is NEVER a matter of money, it is NEVER a matter of ego, it is only a matter of respecting fine food and service and communicating and thanking those who do so. I only wish I had written what you wrote.

can't spell

Edited February 18, 2003 by lizziee (log)

lizziee · February 18, 2003

I would like to make a suggestion. The reporters in question are Pooja Bhatia (pooja.bhatia@wsj.com) and Shirley Leung (shirley.leung@wsj.com). Could we have them as a Q and A?

Pan · February 18, 2003

Well the only times I can remember it being refused was at Fresh when it first opened. But when we told them the meal was going to be written up somewhere, they changed their policy for us.

I think that's manipulative. Why do you think it's OK to effectively blackmail them like that? If you're considering yourself a reviewer, doesn't an honest reviewer act like just another customer and see how s/he's treated? Again, it seems like a somewhat urgent desire to get special treatment denied to "ordinary" diners seems to be at play. Or is there something I misunderstood?

Sometimes for me, when the issue is my wheat sensitivity, and the server isn't getting it, I get very frustrated with them. But ulitmately that becomes an issue of do they care whether my meal is good or not. Some servers when they hear my issue, go on their own volition to speak with a chef or manager and come back with a list of dishes I can eat. Others swear to me that a dish is wheat free only for me to find that it appears at my place setting "lightly breaded" or "dusted in flour." I don't know about you but, I'm from the school that says the servers should understand any question you ask them. And if they don't, they should find someone who does. Even Mario Batalli if they have to.

Here, I really sympathize with you, given my father's dietary restrictions. But perhaps you might consider a different strategy, if you haven't already. Have you mentioned your wheat sensitivity to the reservationist and asked what the most effective strategy for dealing with it would be? When I went to Grand Vefour last summer, the Maitre d' looked over a list of approved ingredients I had printed out in advance and discussed possible dishes from the menu that could be cooked to my father's specifications. I had previously been in contact with the reservationist by email, and she had recommended that I bring such a list when I came. It seems to me that the ubiquity of wheat products is such that informing each restaurant in advance that you will need a menu without any wheat products whatsoever is the way to go.

lizziee · February 18, 2003

Again, it seems like a somewhat urgent desire to get special treatment denied to "ordinary" diners seems to be at play. Or is there something I misunderstood?

Pan,

That's the point. Fat Guy and Steve are trying to say that nobody has to be the "ordinary" diner. It won't happen in a day, but it is a relationship. It is not manipulative for if it is pretense, it shows. If it is honest and sincere, any diner with no dollars can have an extraordinary experience.

Edited February 18, 2003 by lizziee (log)

Steve Plotnicki · February 18, 2003

I think that's manipulative. Why do you think it's OK to effectively blackmail them like that? If you're considering yourself a reviewer, doesn't an honest reviewer act like just another customer and see how s/he's treated? Again, it seems like a somewhat urgent desire to get special treatment denied to "ordinary" diners seems to be at play. Or is there something I misunderstood?

You are just imposing a morality where you are willing to take for granted that the restaurant is on the side of the angels. And in this instance, all we asked for is if they could prepare tasting size portions because we wanted to taste a substantial number of the dishes. We didn't ask for anything that was off menu. And the way it went down, and the result we got, just goes to show that they do accord VIP status for certain people and how easy it would have been for them to comply with my request to begin with. But since they didn't know me/us, they both didn't offer it to me out of hand, or were gracious enough to comply with my request for it. But when they heard I might actually be a VIP, they changed their tune. In fact I think that is pretty shitty on their part, holding out special treatment for who they percieve to be VIP's, and not offering it to people who seem to care about the food. Now who looks like the manipulative one?

To add to Fat Guy's good posts from before, most restaurants are holding something back from their customers. I bet you even Congee Village is holding something back. And whatever you do to get them to give it to you, providing you are polite, it's okay. No morality involved in it at all.

Edited February 18, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

Pan · February 18, 2003

Actually, I agree that the restaurant was behaving shitty. I just think that your strategem of telling them you'd write up a review is problematic. I don't resort to that; I simply write the review and post it here (or, once upon a time, in Chowhound).

Fat Guy · February 18, 2003

I bet you even Congee Village is holding something back.

In terms of number of dishes, Congee Village holds back a heck of a lot more than any six French haute cuisine restaurants combined! There are like four levels of menu at Congee Village and if you keep asking questions you will eventually be shown all of them in both Chinese and English. This is an excruciating process that takes forever, because if you're not Chinese you have a racial issue to overcome, and it eventually requires being handed off to a manager, but the reward is an incredible diversity of offerings. Don't rest until you've been given access to the lamb chops -- both versions ("Do you have lamb chops today? Can I see the menu with the lamb chops on it?" is a good opening gambit). Also be sure to look at the banquet menu -- they'll make pretty much any dish from that menu for you and serve it as a normal dish for about $17. If you're into presentation, they do a really nice scallops in bird's nest thing. Also, the managers who can make all this happen are concentrated in the upstairs room.

Fat Guy · February 18, 2003

I just think that your strategem of telling them you'd write up a review is problematic.

From the reviewer's perspective, I want every customer in the world to pretend to be a reviewer. What a great way to conceal the real reviewer. It's like, "I'm Spartacus."

Steve Plotnicki · February 18, 2003

This is an excruciating process that takes forever, because if you're not Chinese you have a racial issue to overcome,

Have you ever seen what Chinese people are eating at Katz's?

Pan · February 18, 2003

No. What are they eating?

La Niña · February 18, 2003

It was a joke.

Lesley C · February 18, 2003

No, jokes are funny. You know, ha ha. That was an inside comment from a New Yorker.

Let's not forget some of us on these boards are from other parts of the planet. :hmmm:

La Niña · February 18, 2003

I thought it was funny. And Pan is a New Yorker.

Pan · February 18, 2003

Yes, I'm a New Yorker, but all those emoticons come in handy to indicate when we're making jokes. :biggrin:

macrosan · February 18, 2003

Anybody who thinks most good restaurants don't have a VIP level of cuisine held in reserve should look to this thread as a learning opportunity. Anybody who, after learning that such a level of cuisine exists, would like to have it but doesn't try to get it is a masochist.

That's obviously right, FatGuy, but I don't think it addresses the central difference of opinion on this thread. I don't think anyone here doesn't realize that it's possible to get VIP treatment at a restaurant. And those that want that VIP treatment almost certainly ask for it and get it. Many even get it without asking for it. I don't like your use of the term "VIP treatment" because I think it doesn't properly describe what we've been discussing. That's a subset of this discussion and carries it's own emotive baggage which I think distracts from the main debate.

The questions being disputed here were (originally) related to the WSJ approach to their investigation. Lizzie got this right, and she echoed exactly what I said about their antagonistic attitude, and the harm this could do if others followed it. And I think that's an issue of principle which has been worth discussing.

Anyone who denies that there are people out there whose attitude toward off-menu ordering is bad are simply deluding themselves. Those are the people who will damage the prospects of those who approach the issue of off-menu ordering perfectly properly.

Finally, I want to home in your phrase "held in reserve". If you're saying that a restaurant deliberately keeps special ingredients, and special cooking resources, in reserve so that they can be delivered to favored guests or to a walk-in who demands them, then I have the following view. I have no reason to believe this is so nor evidence to suggest it is not. But if I did find it to be so, then I simply would cease to frequent that restaurant, because such a procedure represents a view by the restaurant of me as a general diner that I find unacceptable. It is the antithesis of hospitality.

Basildog · February 18, 2003

I have never experienced kitchens" holding something back" for "VIPs.As some one mentioned before, off menu items are more than likell left overs from the previous service, or intended for the next one.

Example...Valentines Night we had scallops on for a starter, sold very well..had 3 portions left.None were avaible the next day, so we took it off the menu, but did offer them to the first tables untill they sold.

Steve Plotnicki · February 18, 2003

Finally, I want to home in your phrase "held in reserve". If you're saying that a restaurant deliberately keeps special ingredients, and special cooking resources, in reserve so that they can be delivered to favored guests or to a walk-in who demands them, then I have the following view. I have no reason to believe this is so nor evidence to suggest it is not. But if I did find it to be so, then I simply would cease to frequent that restaurant, because such a procedure represents a view by the restaurant of me as a general diner that I find unacceptable. It is the antithesis of hospitality.

Martin - But you've just twisted this around to pitch the same thing but putting the emphasis elsewhere. This is a simple supply and demand issue. Start out with the premise that there is not enough of it to go around for every customer. Whether it is because of a lack of ingredients, or a lack of time to prepare something tricky. Regardless of what it is, the only way you can get it is to inform the restaurant that you would like it. And if you know about it, but don't ask, it has nothing to do with how the restaurant feels about you but how you feel about yourself.

What you are demanding from a restaurant is equal treatment just because you have walked in the door. Do you think that is reasonable? What about the person who eats at Gordon Ramsey every week and splurges for a tasting menu for 4 and buys 3 expensive bottles of wine so his bill comes out to 3000 pounds a week. Should a first time visitor be accorded the same service that person gets? Not only doesn't he, but he shouldn't. I do not know a single business that does not cater to their special, or better customers. Why is a restaurant any different?

The thing that is most absurd to me in this discussion, is that Liziee has shown that there is a way to get this type of treatment in restaurants without having to invest any money in the situation. All you have to do is to show them that you are really interested food. All you have to do is to indicate that you are interested in the food at a certain level then they will go out of their way for you. But even then you still resent it. You want to insist that they treat eveyone exactly the same. Well wake up and smell the porridge because it is that way in exactly zero high end restaurants you frequent. All of them have something held back for special customers who get it because they ask. And you either want to eat better or you don't. But in my opinion, if you let politics or morality get in the way of this simple transaction, you can't really be a food lover because you are being asked to give up absolutely nothing in exchange for what is potentially a vastly improved situation.

Basildog - I don't want to get into a tricky conversation of what off menu means. It can mean the same meat or fish on the menu prepared with different saucing, or different vegetables. It can mean that the restaurant is willing to make tasting size portions of each dish. It can mean that they are willing to pair wines. It can mean many things. The point isn't to make people jump through hoops. The point is to say to them, please craft together your best meal for me.

What's wrong with the WSJ article is that their premise is that it is a buyer's market because there's a recession going on. What they have failed to realize is that the thing they are trying to prove has already been available for decades, and has nothing to do with a recession. There has always been a type of currency that restaurants deal in that has to do with food appreciation, and isn't monetary. And it is this point which exposes them as not really being experienced diners.

Fat Guy · February 18, 2003

if I did find it to be so, then I simply would cease to frequent that restaurant, because such a procedure represents a view by the restaurant of me as a general diner that I find unacceptable.

I hear Basildog's restaurant is quite good. Do you live near there? I hope so, because it's the only restaurant you're ever going to be able to eat at for the rest of your life! :laugh: :raz:

Charlene Leonard · February 18, 2003

What about the person who eats at Gordon Ramsey every week and splurges for a tasting menu for 4 and buys 3 expensive bottles of wine so his bill comes out to 3000 pounds a week

Steve, we SO move in different circles!

Steve Plotnicki · February 18, 2003

Steve, we SO move in different circles!

Charlene - Well it's hard to believe but there really are people who fit that description. Not me mind you, I'm more the type who makes a weekly visit to a place on the Edgeware Road for a good kebab. :cool:

Steve Klc · February 18, 2003

I've really enjoyed how this thread has unfolded and thank all who have pushed and pulled this by sharing their thoughts. That said, I most agree with the perspectives of Bux, Lizziee, Steve Plotnicki and Steve Shaw on the various issues raised. The WSJ article was so poorly designed and executed I'd be embarrassed if I were the publisher or on the masthead. (By the way--is Raymond Sokolov still associated with the WSJ?) I can't add to the scathingly correct criticism already levelled at it.

I share the sensibility of Bux in that ordering off-menu or accepting a chef's offer to cook for you is a personal sensitive decision. A gift to be cherished and appreciated if accepted. But Lizziee and Plotnicki have nailed this issue for me--it never hurts to ask, it never hurts to call ahead and ask if the chef would be willing to cook for you with or without restrictions and you only have yourself to blame if you do not make your expectations known. The restaurant can then respond. It is a hospitality business and you are doing nothing more than offerring to accept that hospitality on slightly different terms and usually willing to pay a premium for such an offer. Seems pretty simple and straightforward.

I'll share some perspective on this by Martin "Finally, I want to home in your phrase "held in reserve". If you're saying that a restaurant deliberately keeps special ingredients, and special cooking resources, in reserve so that they can be delivered to favored guests or to a walk-in who demands them, then I have the following view. I have no reason to believe this is so nor evidence to suggest it is not. But if I did find it to be so, then I simply would cease to frequent that restaurant, because such a procedure represents a view by the restaurant of me as a general diner that I find unacceptable. It is the antithesis of hospitality."

and this by Basildog "I have never experienced kitchens" holding something back" for "VIPs.As some one mentioned before, off menu items are more than likell left overs from the previous service, or intended for the next one."

With all respect, neither of these perspectives reflects my reality as diner or chef. As chef, I'm not defined by my written menu or by any of my restaurant's style, service, price point or cuisine--I'm above those limitations, those attempts to label or categorize. I always have ingredients at my disposal that aren't in use on the current menu--surprises up my sleeve--that certainly aren't leftovers or staff meals--ideas in my head--recipes and dishes in various stages of being worked out--that could be offerred to guests if I choose to do so, VIP or otherwise, and especially if given advance notice. With no problem I could re-arrange components of my desserts to offer something unexpected, more daring, more value added to diners--especially if I am made aware that diners are regulars and have had all the regular desserts time and time again or if a group of diners were coming in that wanted to pay a premium for service or food or attention above the level at which the restaurant currently operates at.

A specific example--shortly after Zaytinya opened, which has 5 desserts on the menu which essentially wouldn't change for the Winter season--I heard that the owners of the Lebanese Taverna restaurant group in DC were coming for dinner, all the brothers and sisters and their family including their parents and aunts and uncles. A huge group of very special friends of our restaurant and an opportunity for me to have my Greek/Turkish/Lebanese-inspired (but decidely non-authentic, non-traditional) desserts evaluated by authoritative palates. I had an hour before the desserts were going out and I wanted them to have a little something extra. I didn't have rosewater on my menu. So I whipped up a modern version of some ancient milk pudding--made a very light rosewater infused milk espuma (foam), cooked down a milk jam a la Bras and chilled it quickly, and made a quick pistachio sugar syrup. Served it to them as a pre-dessert layered in a shot glass with a demi tasse spoon, risked the chagrin of my chef who hadn't tasted this in advance, and hoped for the best. It was very, very well received and every drop licked clean. A little taste of home one of the sisters said.

Well, the take home message is that I had enough to do another 30 shot glasses that night or the next night if any "off menu" or VIP requests came in. And that's only if a chef is not notified in advance!

Many restaurants at the high end have combinations of ingredients or little portions in shot glasses or whatever prepared to go for the VIP/off-menu treatment. Foams, creams, sprinkles that could be combined in more interesting ways--more challenging ways--than the current menu and price point of the restaurant might allow. It's a choice some restaurants make and some chefs make. It should not be expected and it should not be forced or coerced.

Now, as diner, I'm often treated to dishes, meals etc. which are off-menu but prepared just for me as VIP--some which allow a chef to stretch beyond what he normally does in the restaurant for his normal clientele, sometimes when I've asked for a special dinner for a special occasion. There's nothing sinister about this--most diners wouldn't necessarily want this treatment because they're happy with the regular menu offerrings and the regular menu's price point. I've had chefs bring in foie gras or sweetbreads or special shellfish or caviar or truffles... just because they knew a fellow chef was coming in and they wanted to do something special. As Lizziee explained this can be requested as well by regular savvy diners. It happens all the time--and willingly so. It really doesn't matter what the ingredients are sometimes off menu is simply a new combination or normal ingredients juxtoposed in ways that might be too progressive for the currect clientele. A salad of belgian endive, almonds, a Spanish cheese and orange sections on the menu becomes the same salad but with raw oysters tossed in as well for the VIP or appreciative or more daring diner. If the oysters were on the menu it wouldn't sell as much. Again, nothing sinister.

This ordering off-menu/VIP discussion is really little different than asking a restaurant and chef to do a tasting menu for you of all small portions rather than the normal on-menu appetizer and large entree. You make a request of the restaurant and get their reply. It's a hospitality business and this is a legitimate request. It's better if you make this request in advance but even that night it still seems a valid request and a harmless one at that. Steve P. is all over this by saying this should be accepted as the common currency most restaurants and chefs trade in.

Wilfrid · February 18, 2003

Thanks for the dose of sanity, Steven.

Just a footnote on one of Steve Klc's points. I have been aware in the past that a restaurant will hold back a particular dish or portion because they know a regular is coming in who usually orders it. I know this can be irritating if you wanted the dish and you're not the regular, but I take it in my stride as part of the business, a little like holding back certain tables.

Liebling has a sweet story about this. A regular at a certain restaurant arrives one evening, set on a light meal of oysters and steak (this is Liebling, remember). He over hears the proprietor say "Look, here comes Monsieur X. Save the last of the cassoulet for him." Unwilling either to compromise his dinner or hurt the proprietor's feelings, he manages to eat both the steak and a couple of portions of the cassoulet. As Liebling observed, the oysters presented no problem, as they offer no bulk. :cool:

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