Off the Menu at 15 Restaurants

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well if I remember the story correctly, one of the big dairys in Hudson County (that's upstate NY) was experimenting with a product directed at gourmet restaurants. I don't think it is the same thing you are talking about though it obviously comes from underage beef. I have actually seen it on a menu only one other time. The version we had was like a strip steak, or a veal filet. It had a funny crunchy texture to it. A bit tough for my taste, but the flavor was pretty good. Something like beef lite.

[IrishCream]

Steve...I hope you don't mind a few more questions. Can you order the tasting menu just for you? How will the restaurant feel if there are others eating the regular menu? ( I ask cuz the Judge has a bunch of food fetishes...sigh).

Edited February 19, 2003 by IrishCream (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Judge?

When you say for me, you mean just for myself or for my table? Usually a restaurant wants the table to eat the same meal. Sometimes when you have four people, they will bring people two different entrees. The other night at Union Pacific, we all had the same menu six course menu but two of us had short ribs for a main course and two had venison. But the entire table is expected to have the same meal.

[IrishCream]

The Judge is my husband. And I wonder, given your wheat affliction, how you are able to share dinners with the whole table? I only ask because the Judge has similiar afflictions. And I am wondering how I can ever eat at the French Laundry with him...

[Steve Plotnicki]

Just tell them no wheat. They will be very happy to comply. At Trotter's and Trio I told them in advance and they both baked wheat free bread for me. One from corn and one from rice.

[Wilfrid]

Steve defined baby beef as "too old to be veal but not old enough to be real beef". I'm sorry irish Cream hasn't enjoyed it because it was memorably good at Blue Hill. This is just a footnote, because I'm reminded that just a few days ago I saw the term "baby beef" - which I thought was something new - in an old Waverley Root book, The Food of Italy. Apparently it was all the rage in Tuscany.

And the waiting-in-the-lounge comments have given me an idea for a thread in the New York forum. Sorry, carry on...

[g.johnson]

We had baby beef at the Altnaharrie Inn of fond memory. Very good as I recall.

[Wilfrid]

Where dat?

[AdamLawrence]

Where was dat is more accurate: it's closed. Upcountry from Ullapool - now there's a concept you don't see everyday. Two Michelin stars for some time. Never got there: boo. Was it Altnaharrie that you had to access by boat, or is that the Summer Isles Hotel?

Adam

ediot: spelling

Edited February 19, 2003 by AdamLawrence (log)

[g.johnson]

That was Altnaharrie. Though it was on a peninsula across the loch from Ullapool the only land route was via a dirt road. Also it's cooler to take the boat. Not the best food I've ever had (though still very good) but certainly the nicest restaurant experience.

[stellabella]

One thing I hasten to point out is that you are somewhat atypical. The United States is not a nation of professional waiters in possession of the esprit de corps you describe.

steven, once again i SOOOO agree with you.

i would really like to see more of a discussion of the notion of "service" and the frequent lack of it.

i did my stint as a waitron--five years in a trendy popular mid--priced eatery in one of atlanta's most desirable in-town neighborhoods. the place was popular for its consistently decent food, hearty brunches, a good dessert menu [several local reknowned pastry chefs spun off from here , now have their own shops], and a good mid-priced wine selection. it's been in business 20 years, still going strong. not fine-dining, but not low end, either. i was a good server--i hustled and i had good rapport with customers. i often had records sales on weekends. one night the owner asked me if i'd hostess one night for his friend who had a fancy restaurant in buckhead--the hostess was sick and they were pretty desperate. so i went. i will never forget it. the other servers treated me like i was some homeless bum off the street. one waitress took me aside and said, Look, watch me. she seated the next customers and as she did opened their napkins across their laps with a little flourish. then she turned to me and sneered, "this is a FINE dining establishment, not M--'s"

i thought to myself, but did not say, "Excuse me, girlfriend, but you are a WAITRESS."

thus i reveal my own prejudice. for me, it was an interim job that paid the bills until i got "real" job teaching. i would like to think that that attitude never came through to my customers. i am proud of my work, regardless of what it is. i have a work ethic. i have always had co-wokers who clearly lack a work ethic. add to that that working in a restaurant can be extremely stressful, and that the front of the house staff are often at odds with the kitchen. i'm guessing many of us have read bourdain's book about the industry. i found it to be painfully accurate & reflective of my own experience.

if i remember, one of the reasons bourdain seemed scornful of many servers was because they had that "this is not my life" attitude.

on the flip side, i am always really impressed when i eat out and i have a server, some young kid working his way throgh college, who gives great service and really takes pride in his work. about a year ago my husband and i had dinner out and had such a server. our dining companions paid the bill with credit card and took our cash. they totally pimped this server, leaving him 11% and thus stealing from us. [i actually posted about this incident.] imagine this scenario from the server's point of view. at some point do you stop busting your ass for no-nothing, cheap, pedestrian "diner"? there are so many factors that can determine the kind of service you're going to get on any given nite, or indeed at any given moment.

Edited February 19, 2003 by stellabella (log)

[Bux]

I suppose there's baby beef and baby beef. What appears in Texas supermarkets may well be from surplus production of calves by farmers not interested in raising them to full maturity. What an artisanal farmer carefully produces may be a completely different product raised from a different breed.

Most restaurants frown on serving three courses to three diners at a four top and an eight course tasting menu to the fourth diner. It's hell on the kitchen and serving staff. Many restaurants pride themselves on sending out a variety of dishes when a table orders a tasting menu. A table of four might get main courses in pairs or even four different dishes. In addition, a truly fine world class

restaurant will most often be willing to create a special tasting menu to cater to the needs of one member of a party. The classic example for me is my first meal at El Bulli, a restaurant whose standard tasting menu was about 85% fish or seafood. When we arrived, we were asked if we wanted the tasting menu (as of last year they only offered a tasting menu, but this was earlier). We said five of us would like it, but one of us has an allergy to all fish and shellfish. Our captain replied that he was aware of our reservation fax which noted that one of our party was so afflicted and that they were prepared to serve a non sea menu. Note also that in spite of the fact that they were prepared, we were in no way obligated to take the tasting menu. We were all unknown to the restaurant by the way and all that we had done to rate special treatment is to let them know we were aware of the restaurant's syle and express our interests ahead of time. We ordered moderatly to inexpensive wines, although we let the house pick our cava. To our surprise it turned out to be less expensive that most of the wines we ordered that evening. Even if you hated Adria's food, you'd have to admit it El Bulli is a class act.

Fat Guy made a good point discussing the issue of waiting in the lounge. What the customer wants is not always what the house has planned for his care and feeding. I may be repeating what several Steves have already said and my words may fall on deaf ears as some people respond poorly to the suggestion that how they behave is not the way that may be most beneficial to their enjoyment of a restaurant, but if you're new to three star Michelin dining or its closest equivalent here in America (any that doesn't exist in any widespread form in this country although it is spreading) take your hints from your serving team. They are not all cut from the mold that Lizziee's man is, but he's not an aberration. Let's assume I am asked to wait in the lounge against my wishes and I feel that someone else is getting that empty table and that I feel the next one to open is not any better--a worst case scenario that means I am actually being passed over in favor of a vip or friend of the house, not that it's actually a proven case, but, let's assume it for the sake of my argument. I can make a fuss and probably not get the table as well as earning the wrath of the staff, or maybe I'll get the table and lousy service or I can go with the flow and feel rahter confidnent that a professional staff will see that ultimately I get a exceptional evening of fine dining with some compensation for making life easier for them. These guys are your friends and a lot of respect and cooperation will go further than a twenty dollar bill.

Lizziee I'd also like to hear more from your visitor. Few service people will refuse a big tip, but most the front of the house staff I know in really fine restaurants and some more popular level fine restaurants will go out of their way for the little guy especially if he proves himself a likable little guy. Anyone who thinks they are entitled to the same level of service whether they are rich or poor, famous or unknown, or a big tipper or not are right in my mind, but anyone who believes they are entitled to the same service if they are polite or obnoxious is wrong. You may have to lay out big bucks for caviar, but for a good table, fine service and a chicken cooked as well as it can be, all you should need is the menu price and a smile, but as our friendly service person says, you also have to be a realist.

[ngatti]

"Off the menu" will have different impact according to the off-menu dish ordered and the structure of the restaurant operation.

If there is sauteed halibut with lemon sauce etc on the menu, then an order for plain grilled halibut is simplicity itself for the kitchen, it will require no special skilled attention, and it will reduce the work involved in preparing the dish. If the roles of the dishes are reversed, then the off-menu order requires a cook who knows how to make the sauce and compose and cook the dish, and it creates additional work and management attention.

If the off-menu order is for a sauced steak dish, and there is neither steak nor that sauce on today's menu, then this raises the question of availability of ingredients, in addition to the time and attention to basic preparation of those ingredients.

For a high-end kitchen, some of these requests will be doable but are likely to cause organizational and management problems in the kitchen (however minor those might be). Some requests may not be doable at all, especially if the chef is concerned about being able at short notice to produce the quality level demanded by the restaurant.

There are also the front of house issues. The server who takes the order must understand clearly what is required by the customer, and unless the server has culinary knowledge this may be difficult. The server needs to communicate the request accurately to the chef. Someone needs to price the dish and this price needs to be relayed to and agreed by the customer, and then recorded accurately (maybe thru a computer system) so that it appears correctly on the final check. 

So the whole issue of off-menu orders at the very least will place a strain on the operation of a restaurant. The important question is why would you want to do that to a restaurant that you like enough to dine in, and you go to often enough to believe they should accede to your off-menu request ?

Well if it's a test of the restaurant, then it's foolish. If it's just to establish your own status as a favored customer, then it's pretentious. If it's for reasons of dietary restriction, then it's something that should be organized in advance of your visit, so it no longer represents any of the problems discussed above. So what does that leave ? Well, just the possibility that on a whim, when you arrive to dine, you just fancy a particular dish which just doesn't happen to be on the menu. If that's all it is, then it really can't be a problem if the restaurant says no.

Of course, there do seem to be restaurants (according to some members here) that positively enjoy and encourage off-menu ordering, and then I would have few qualms about doing so. If this is the case, I cannot understand why such a restaurant would bother to print a menu. They might do better just toi list the main ingredients of the day, and let all their customers design their own dishes. But even in those cases, I would generally prefer to be adventurous, and be guided by the chef's judgement as expressed on his menu.

Martin, there are many reasons why I like you. Most of them are contained in this post.

Nick

[Suzanne F]

I genuinely do not like to be treated differently in a restaurant than anybody else.I

BD: You, Suzanne and I must make a point of dining out together.

Looks as if we won't find anyone else to go with us.

Oh I'm in

Name the place!

How about the club where Nick Gatti works?

[lizziee]

My service man is a "professional" front of the house person. He went to a hospitality college and his aspirations are to be the consummate front of the house person. He sees his job as a profession not a way stop on the way to becoming something else.

Bux, my visitor doesn't have a computer so he can only post when he comes over to visit which is not often as he works 6 days a week, 14 hours a day.

[ranitidine]

one of the big dairys in Hudson County (that's upstate NY)

Steve--The only Hudson County I know of is on the other side of the Holland Tunnel, in New Jersey. Is it possible that the dairy you refer to was in Hoboken?

[Fat Guy]

He probably means the Hudson Valley.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Actually I meant the Hudson Valley. So it's either Dutchess or Columbia County. But check out this cool map of New York State. Just run your curser over a location in the state.

New York State

[ajay]

All of this talk of off menu dinning reminds me of one of my first haute meals ever, at Grammercy Tavern no less. (This was about three years ago, and my first visit ever to the restaurant). I had heard (from Fat Guy's website) that GT was an excellent place for novice diners to get a sense of what fine dinning is all about, so I went.

I decided to do the tasting menu, but I also fancied some truffles (the Fat guy had recently posted a piece about an all truffle menu he had eaten somewhere that had gotten me really interested in this product). So I talked to my captain and he was able to arrange that a lamb dish on the menu be made with extra truffles (these were black winter truffles in case anyone is wondering) and for a $15 supplement mentioned up front was able to add a dish that was to focus on truffles and remains one of my fondest fine dinning memories to date--pancetta wrapped loin of monkfish in a meaty reduction of some sort with grated black truffles. If they were able to accomodate the request of a bumbling dinning novice (who clearly appeared as though he was blowing half of his life savings to eat there) like myself (at lunch no less) I can't imagine why they would refuse a sincere request from someone who comes across as a saavy and interested diner.

I bet Danny Meyer really hit the roof when he heard about this--the article I mean.

[Fat Guy]

Danny doesn't strike me as a roof-hitting kind of guy. He probably called a meeting and got the situation remedied. I bet if you went into Gramercy Tavern and tried the same experiment (please don't; I'm just making a point) every server in the place would have exactly the right answer for you. Likewise, try some of those other places at random and you may not be able to replicate the positive outcome. And I should add that it doesn't take a newspaper article to get a serious restaurateur like Danny Meyer to act. I'm sure if one customer wrote a letter of complaint describing the exact same occurrence, he'd act just as quickly.

[Pan]

What I said was that it doesn't cost anything to acquire the service. I didn't say the items didn't have an extra cost. Most of the times they do but sometimes they don't. Recently I had a restaurant prepare a chef's tasting menu for me. Two of us had three courses and each course had 5-6 small plates of food in it. The cost was $50 a person. Had we ordered ala carte, it would probably have been 50%-100% more per person. So whether it's a matter of more money or not depends on what it is. But in general, exceptions typically cost more. That seems logical to me.

Understood completely, and it certainly seems logical to me, as well. One normally pays for services one requests.

[Fat Guy]

A typical policy -- for example this is the policy as I understand it at one of the restaurants on this list of 15 -- is: never comp anything the customer asks for; but always try to find something to comp for a good customer.

Are you starting to get the picture here, people?

The holy grail is being able to get what you want without requesting it.

If you've ever seen a courtroom drama you're no doubt familiar with the concept of the leading question.

No, that's it. I'm not dispensing anymore wisdom right now. Go forth and be a VIP.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - How subtle a signal can I send them? If I just raise my left eyebrow slightly, will they know that means, go off-menu?

[Rail Paul]

I suppose there's baby beef and baby beef. What appears in Texas supermarkets may well be from surplus production of calves by farmers not interested in raising them to full maturity. What an artisanal farmer carefully produces may be a completely different product raised from a different breed.

Many US cattle farmers are trimming their herd counts significantly. USDA had a report on that a few weeks ago.

With low prices for dressed beef, high feed costs (drought in some areas), antibiotics, and a dicey outlook, some are just packing it in. Classic response in a commodity business, but, as you note, unrelated to artisanal farming.