Off the Menu at 15 Restaurants

[Wilfrid]

Anything for Stella:

1. The WSJ journos seem to have behaved in a manner which doesn't make much sense - just showing up a restaurants and demanding an off menu meal without much reason for it. This may set a bad example, if readers think this is appropriate behavior.

2. Are there any moral issues with restaurants offering dishes or ingredients only to some customers, either keeping them off the menu or holding them back for regulars? We seem to have whittled it down to the complaint that the average customer simply doesn't know that these options exist - a complaint not without merit, but it has been suggested that there are other retail situations, such as bespoke tailoring, where a customer is not going to know about every option unless they engage in a discussion with the provider.

3. People should be permittedm, of course, to seek the dining experience which best suits them - whether it involve challenging the kitchen to be creative, or enjoying and evaluating the service and menu available to all customers without the need for special requests.

4. Is it okay to act like a jerk?

I think that's about where I am. Let's gird our loins for the next ten pages.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Wilfrid is saying that people order special meals in advance for various occassions all of the time. What is so different about doing it at the meal itself? And I think we are going a little overboard in the way we are using the term VIP. That's just what restaurants call it. Nobody actually thinks they are an important person. And like Fat Guy said yesterday. There are all different versions of VIP. From Blue Heron's uncle to people restaurants actually think are important customers.

[hollywood]

I find using a bar stool makes it easier to dine at a high level.

[Suzanne F]

Let's drop this "VIP" thing and talk about eliciting the best of a restaurant, even the first time you visit.  First, I start with my appearance.  If it's an expensive and elegant place, I dress accordingly, to indicate my seriousness, and ability to afford potentially more expensive items than might be listed on the menu, depending on what I may end up negotiating.

I look at the menu, I think about ways I might combine things, I think  about what *I* prefer, and I start talking to the staff about my thoughts about the menu.  Invariably, in a good restaurant, the staff will be interested in what I"m observing and thinking about, and a creative conversation will ensue.  In the best case scenario, these conversations result in "special treatment," meaning that I get brought different things, different combinations of things, extra things...in a good restaurant, the staff (both front and kitchen) *want* to please an appreciative, experienced diner.   I also get things that *are* on the menu, hopefully based on the recommendation of the staff, once they understand my preferences and expectations somewhat.  It's actually satisfying for all concerned - and it also many times results in a larger gratuity for the staff.

Nina -- what you have described is precisely what I meant: you DEMONSTRATE that you deserve the special treatment. Not that you ASK for it, nor that, heaven forfend, you DEMAND it. But that you SHOW you are capable of appreciating it.

(Of course, Wilfrid's pre-arranged dinner, and Steve P.'s medical reasons -- which should have been discussed with the staff beforehand it at all possible) are exempt. THAT sort of asking is perfectly acceptable, even necessary.

I, like Steve, can't understand why anyone thinks there's anything wrong with this.

Who does?

And Stellabella, there seem to be at least three different "central issues" now. Sorry if I've added to your fully-justified confusion. Wilfrid did a good job of laying them out, although he seems not to have included his diversion into discussing the menu ahead of time. Which to me is the height of good manners, by not putting sudden, undue pressure on the kitchen, while assuring one's own satisfaction.

Edited February 18, 2003 by Suzanne F (log)

[La Niña]

Let's drop this "VIP" thing and talk about eliciting the best of a restaurant, even the first time you visit.  First, I start with my appearance.  If it's an expensive and elegant place, I dress accordingly, to indicate my seriousness, and ability to afford potentially more expensive items than might be listed on the menu, depending on what I may end up negotiating.

I look at the menu, I think about ways I might combine things, I think  about what *I* prefer, and I start talking to the staff about my thoughts about the menu.  Invariably, in a good restaurant, the staff will be interested in what I"m observing and thinking about, and a creative conversation will ensue.  In the best case scenario, these conversations result in "special treatment," meaning that I get brought different things, different combinations of things, extra things...in a good restaurant, the staff (both front and kitchen) *want* to please an appreciative, experienced diner.   I also get things that *are* on the menu, hopefully based on the recommendation of the staff, once they understand my preferences and expectations somewhat.  It's actually satisfying for all concerned - and it also many times results in a larger gratuity for the staff.

Nina -- what you have described is precisely what I meant: you DEMONSTRATE that you deserve the special treatment. Not that you ASK for it, nor that, heaven forfend, you DEMAND it. But that you SHOW you are capable of appreciating it.

Part of how I "demonstrate" this desire is, in fact, by asking for special things - in as polite, charming, respectful and appropriate a manner as possible.

And I don't think it's about my deserving anything - it's about the restaurant showing me that they deserve me as a customer. I am giving them an opportunity to show me their best - and hopefully they will, understanding that I'm capable of appreciating it and paying for it.

Edited February 18, 2003 by La Niña (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well now that Suzanne brings it up, sometimes you ask politely and they refuse. And in those instances I have found that sometimes I have had to demand it. Is there anything wrong with that? When I was at Arzak and they gave me the wine list with all young wines on it, I had to demand that the sommelier give me the reserve list with the old wines on it. And by the way, the wine I was demanding cost $45 a bottle. Not $4500, $45. And they were holding it back from me!

But again, can we stop characterizing how a diner asks for it. That really isn't the point of article or the exercise here. What is wrong with taking whatever steps are necessary in getting what you want?

[Wilfrid]

That's a bit different - when you know they've got something and they're not letting you have it. I've had to make assertive requests in the past for goat's intestines and for a menu in Spanish, not English.

"What is wrong with taking whatever steps are necessary in getting what you want? "

Yes, I generally go to the more difficult restaurants armed to the teeth.

[Andy Lynes]

What is wrong with taking whatever steps are necessary in getting what you want?

Absolutely nothing. As long as you are not planning in returning anytime soon.

But isn't that the distinction between ordering off menu and VIP treatment? In the first case you ask for something and you may or may not get it, the reserve list at Arzak for example. In the second instance you get that list without even asking because you are known to the establishment and they cherish your continued patronage.

That doesn't mean all the other customers are somehow getting short changed, it's just that the restaurant is holding back it's more scarce resource for the occassions when it will do them most good.

[hollywood]

Yes, I generally go to the more difficult restaurants armed to the teeth.

Anything less would be suicidal; anything more would get in the way of masticating. But are bandeleros still in vogue?

Edited February 18, 2003 by hollywood (log)

[tommy]

However, when he took me out for lunch and had his heart set on fried oysters (at an upscale Seafood restaurant that didn't have it listed on the menu), he simply asked the waitress if they could do that for him.  Somehow they did happen to have fresh oysters in the back and gladly made them for him, and everyone was happy.  But he never felt that was VIP treatment.  He was just assertive enough to ask for what he wanted even though is wasn't listed on the menu.  If they had not had oysters, he would have just ordered something else.

just like that scene in Tommy Boy, when farley's character "really wants some chicken wings," although the restaurant had "already turned off the fryers." he said in a sweet way, "gee, i'd *really* love some chicken wings right now." the waitress said, "ok, let me see if they have any left...[stands there for a second]...NOPE."

of course, farley goes on to freak out act like a complete idiot, but, in the process, appeals to the server's compassionate side, and she finally agrees to go turn on the fryer and make the fellow some wings.

so, if we've learned anything from that movie, it's that freaking out helps more than being polite. but probably only when you want chicken wings.

Edited February 18, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Liza]

Well, we could also look to the "Five Easy Pieces" example, which also involves chicken.

[Steve Plotnicki]

But isn't that the distinction between ordering off menu and VIP treatment? In the first case you ask for something and you may or may not get it, the reserve list at Arzak for example. In the second instance you get that list without even asking because you are known to the establishment and they cherish your continued patronage.

Actually, there are many different issues bundled into my interaction with the sommelier. Does he hold the reserve list back for regulars, or is it for extra special customers? And if it's for special customers, does he allocate places on that list by their knowledge about wine or by how much money they are likely to spend? But rest assured, had a friend of mine not been there 2 years earlier, I would have never known and it wouldn't have been offered.

There is actually a good thread in here somewhere. I can hear Fat Guy saying somebody should start a thread about this. What we have been arguing here is the following. One side of the argument says that the customer base for a restaurant is a single market. That everybody gets lumped together into that market. That is the Basildog approach. But the other side of the argument says that no, a restaurant's clientele is actually comprised of a number of different markets that are overlapping, and you have to have a different scheme for dealing with each and every market you have to deal with. I think if we got into the issue on that level (and I'm not the one who wants to start that thread,) we would delve much further into this issue and many of the morality based arguments would fall to the wayside.

[Bux]

I think we've all agreed that ... and generally behaving like a jerk, are negatives.

So that would rule out kidnapping the chef's wife and kids and holding them for ranson in return for something really special from the kitchen?

[Bux]

1.  The WSJ journos seem to have behaved in a manner which doesn't make much sense -

Fat Guy's the teacher. Listen to him. Wilfrid, are you saying that a dozen free meals at expensive restaurants across the country doesn't make any sense? Nine pages of discussion about the article might not make much sense, but meals on the company dime make a lot of sense. Do you thnk the WSJ will treat me to a dozen pair of expensive shoes if I promise to try and get comped a shoe shine kit at each bootmaker's.

[Wilfrid]

Hmm. You reminded me of my plan to kidnap Momo. But I can't now remember what my demands were.

Re Steve P's market argument, I think it's slightly more complex than two-sided (either lump the market together or sort it into different segments). You have to introduce the factor of what kind of a restaurant it is or is trying to be. I can see stratification not making much sense for Basildog's business; it might make a lot of sense for a place like Daniel. We can't treat all restaurants as if they're essentially interchangeable for this type of discussion.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yes but restaurants that are not trying to offer this level of service, like Basildog's, are not really part of the discussion. It's restaurants like Daniel, where each and every market that is interested in a haute cuisine meal comes across their threshold at one point or another in any given week.

Edited February 18, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Wilfrid]

Well, you mentioned Basildog as an example of one approach. Are there examples of the single market approach at the NY three or four star level? (Not that this has to be about New York - I am just trying to get a grip on the topic; or should we have a new thread?).

[hollywood]

Hmm.  You reminded me of my plan to kidnap Momo.  But I can't now remember what my demands were.

Weren't you going to force him to appear in an Austin Powers film?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well this is the point isn't it? The non-VIP's basically get dumped into a single market. There might be multiple markets within that grouping, but they pretty much get treated the same irregardless. But in the VIP category, you start to see stratification and the management bends over backwards to adapt to their needs.

[cabrales]

I'd like to point out that I take no issue with not receiving VIP treatment at almost every restaurant. I don't believe "regular" treatment is a reflection on myself as a person or as a diner. It's a sign of the relationship (or lack thereof) I have with the restaurant. In every instance, I get VIP treatment not because I am seeking it proactively, but because I genuinely like the cuisine and visit frequently.

Thus, being dumped into a single market when I am non-VIP is entirely appropriate. How is the restaurant to know in advance what the preferences of less regular guests might be? Even if it knew (e.g., through a special request by the guest upon arrival), the restaurant has limited resources and cannot accommodate all guests' specific needs necessarily. Therefore, it is entirely rational to turn down the requests of guests who have not proven themselves to be loyal and interested diners.

At most restaurants, I do not wish for VIP status. VIP status carries with it burdens as well as benefits, in some situations. One might have to finish all the food on a plate even though one would not wish to do so, for example. (Note I generally do not have that problem at the few restaurants I prefer.)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cabby is correct there as well. Sometimes restaurants want to give you VIP status and you would prefer to be a fly on the wall. This is especially the case when you don't like the food. I remember in 1984, Mrs. P and I had finished a poor meal at Georges Blanc. And then when we saw M. Blanc enter the dining room, we prayed he wasn't going to visit our table because we knew he would ask us about the food. The last thing in the world we wanted was for him to leave our table and indicate to the captain to bring us some special dish. We wanted out of there badly. Unfortunately we were the first table he visited.

[Wilfrid]

One might have to finish all the food on a plate even though one would not wish to do so, for example. (Note I generally do not have that problem at the few restaurants I prefer.)

I haven't noticed that you are generally plagued by that problem.

[cabrales]

This is especially the case when you don't like the food.

Other reasons a diner might prefer to be a fly on the wall: (1) one might not want to get all dressed up and look one's best for a restaurant one were known at, (2) one might consider it more appropriate, when a chef has taken such efforts, to order better wine, and one might also feel one has to be more generous than usual with resect to tipping, (3) significantly, one would not want to have to decrease the number of diners markedly or cancel on a restaurant one were known at, even if one were already very full from prior restaurants visited, and (4) one would be more circumspect about alcohol, for fear of getting intoxicated and undermining one's record of good behavior (hence, no more "to the edge" attempts at alcohol).

[La Niña]

Cabby is correct there as well. Sometimes restaurants want to give you VIP status and you would prefer to be a fly on the wall. This is especially the case when you don't like the food. I remember in 1984, Mrs. P and I had finished a poor meal at Georges Blanc. And then when we saw M. Blanc enter the dining room, we prayed he wasn't going to visit our table because we knew he would ask us about the food. The last thing in the world we wanted was for him to leave our table and indicate to the captain to bring us some special dish. We wanted out of there badly. Unfortunately we were the first table he visited.

Oh c'mon. You can bullshit with the best of 'em. It's like going to a show where you hate the show, but you know the actors/musicians/director...so you say some niceties and go to the party and say some more niceties. What's the big deal? In these kinds of situations, truth is highly overrated.

[Wilfrid]

hence, no more "to the edge" attempts at alcohol

And we all know where they end up.