Foodie's NYC Visit

[Bux]

You clearly have more help than you need, or perhaps more recommendations than you need and less help. Taste is a very subjective thing. Let me add my name to those who suggest you scratch Da Silvano. It was one of those places that left me so cold a long time ago that I never returned. Nor have I ever read anything that would change my mind.

Balthazar, on the other hand, is a place I like. The two chefs are friends of my daughter's but I avoided the place when it opened because it brought limos and tourists to my neighborhood. It's really taken me a while to learn to like and use it. The food is solid, no real surprises, but well done. I think it's at it's best for weekend brunch and second best late in the evening when it may quiet down a bit and get a diffferent crowd. I suppose it's a scene, but it's one of great democracy. Celebs, kids on a date, tourists and neighborhood locals all enjoy it and it's a greal slice of New York. Earlier this year we had lunch there just before grabbing a plane for Lyon. Even I thought it an odd choice as we were on our way to the real France. Odder yet that a couple from Paris was seated next to us and they spoke in French to a waiter who was from Montreal. The last time I was there I ran into two chefs eating together and the sommelier from Cafe Boulud.

[better fries than Balthazar--Jubiliee, Blue Smoke and ... ]

Cafe Boulud and Blue Hill are two other places I love and where I know the chef. I throw the latter in as a disclaimer because someone else may anyway, but I only know chef's whose food I like. I know Daniel as well as wouldn't have given you an argument on that choice even if it was open for discussion, but keep Atelier in mind for a future visit. In some ways Cafe Boulud has been like a mini Daniel, but I think Andrew is getting more freedom. The last time we were there we put ourselves in Andrew's hands and it may have been the best meal we've had there and the least Daniel like meal. Blue Hill, in my mind, is like a clear gem. Cafe Boulud is heartier while Blue Hill is more delicate, but both are intense in their own way. Of course Cafe Boulud is upper east side casual and Blue Hill is downtown casual. A good duo if you have time for both.

Barbeque may not be my thing, but Blue Smoke may be interesting for an informal meal as well as the fries. Some of the other suggestions made are terrible and some I just don't know. A few are respectable but not my choice.

[weinoo]

[better fries than Balthazar--Jubiliee, Blue Smoke and ... ]

Bux - I'm just wondering about the fries at Blue Smoke since I haven't had them...but have had and loved the barbecued chips - are they one and the same or does blue smoke also offer true french fries?

It's funny you mention having a meal at Balt. before heading to France as my wife and I are heading to Paris on Thursday and thought Balt. would get us in the mood!

Edited February 11, 2003 by weinoo (log)

[Bux]

I think the french fried potatoes were just that, great french friend potatoes.

I'm always in the mood for Paris.

My thinking was that we travel to experience being in a different place and by starting in Balthazar we diminish the difference just as the French couple sitting next to us might be missing the authentic New York, but the truth is that New York and Paris are far less different from each other than they were and Balthazar for all it's pseudo French brasserie trappings, is very much New York. A good case can be made that the best way to experience the difference between two places is to see what one has that's considered an imitation of the other and to experience the two in close proximity in time. Another factor that I just thought about is that most of the time I'm dining in Balthazar, there's at least one table near me that's obviously occupied by Europeans and I focus much less on the idea that one of my local restaurants has been taken over by tourists, when I'm about to invade someone else's locale. In fact, I feel at one with the tourists.

[badger0412]

Wow - thanks everybody. Clearly I have no option but to extend my trip by about a month!! Unfortunately this is not possible so I have [i think] arrived at the final list. Which ever way one looks at it I will be returning to the UK a couple of sizes larger than when I left!

I really am grateful for all you help and hope I'll find some supporters out there in my final choice. It's the concierge at the hotel I feel sorry for but at least from the 13th he can make the reservations and forget about it.

Here they are then:

Lunch

db Bistro

Montrachet

River Cafe

Bouley

Cafe Boulud

Dinner

Balthazar

Veritas

Daniel

66

I've left one of the evenings free to add a small element of excitement!

Many, many thanks for your help [and apologies to those of you whose recommendations I haven't taken yet - they'll have to wait until August].

If I survive [the Meaning of Life sketch springs to mind] I'll be sure to pass on my comments.

Regards

Dean

[joler]

I'm so surprised. No mention of Les Halles?!? It's been a while since I've been to NYC, but I assume they are still there?

[La Niña]

Still there, but not so good.

[weinoo]

Hey, what about breakfast!?

[weinoo]

I certainly can't quibble with your choices...but... you must really like Chef Daniel B....and wasn't he the original chef at Montrachet as well? So 4 of your 9 choices are Daniel's owned and/or inspired restaurants. Try a meal somewhere that might cost you less than $100 (Blue Smoke/Lupa/Fried Dumpling/Otto??) and see if you like that as well.

[mogsob]

I'm so surprised.  No mention of Les Halles?!?  It's been a while since I've been to NYC, but I assume they are still there?

But the purpose of this post is to recommend good restaurants. Les Halles hasn't been even close to decent for many years.

I really do wish that restaurants were not judged based solely on the celebrity of the chef, particularly if the chef in question is rarely in the kitchen.

[joler]

I did not have a good dining experience at Les Halles when I was there several years ago. I was merely commenting on the popularity of Anthony Bourdain on this site.

[mogsob]

Lunch

db Bistro

Montrachet

River Cafe

Bouley

Cafe Boulud

Dinner

Balthazar

Veritas

Daniel

66

The list is certainly Boulud-heavy, although Daniel and Cafe Boulud are unquestionably two of the best in NYC. 66 has yet to open (I think), so it is unclear how good it will be. Generally, restaurants take the better part of a year to hit their stride.

It's been a while since I've been to Montrachet, and there have been several chef changes during that time. I have not heard anything recently about it.

I would give a pass to Balthazar for dinner, which is more than a scene than a serious restaurant. I would replace with one of NY's casual fine dining restaurants, such as Blue Hill, Annisa, Etats Unis, Tocqueville etc.

I would give a pass to Veritas, unless there is something on their wine list you are dying to try. If you like wine, March offers a more vibrant experience via their individually designed tasting menus/wine matching option. It is also one of the few truly romantic restaurants left in NY, and has 3 NYT stars, just like Veritas.

[weinoo]

I would give a pass to Balthazar for dinner, which is more than a scene than a serious restaurant. 

Once again, a diss to Balthazar - please see above posts. Please define serious - what, they serve food and wine? And charges 100's of dollars for a lot of it...

[mogsob]

By a serious restaurant I mean one with a kitchen that is capable of producing, on a consistent basis, food prepared correctly, and service that adequately sees to the needs of the customer.

I have been to Balthazar several times for dinner, and on each occassion found (a) significant errors in the preparation of the dishes (e.g., overcooked, overseasoned, poorly cut) and (b) servers who couldn't care less about my needs (e.g., ordering, bringing water, bringing wine, serving the food upon completion in the kitchen).

Judging from how Balthazar operates, it exists for the scene, namely celebs and wannabes who are more concerned about cocktails and ambiance than in food and proper service.

That is not to say that only expensive restaurants are "serious." A serious restaurant puts the emphasis on food preparation and service, and those two things are not exclusive to expensive restaurants.

[badger0412]

I'm not sure whether to be alarmed about the 'Boulud heavy' selection or not. A comfort, I suppose, is that the 'name' was not the reason for the selection and his prominence is fortuitous rather than deliberate. db was selected over a year ago when I first read about the now superseded $27 burger. The other two based on an element of research, a read of the menus and the many recommendations on sites such as these.

Given the consistently high 'ratings' his various restaurants have received I can take some comfort in knowing that for five or so days I am going to be eating well and consistently so.

On the Les Halles topic - Mr Bourdain seems to rate Scott Bryan significantly higher than himself as a chef and I'm to take his advice in this instance!

Anyway, Jeffrey Steingarten once ate at Alain Passard's Paris restaurant for several days in a row and he should know better than me!! Incidentally, having noted the continued debate about Kobe beef etc I can recommend his article 'Where's the Wagyu' in the book 'The Man Who Ate Everything' - it would appear it answers at least some of the questions and corrects some of the inaccuracies I have read.

[rozrapp]

On the Les Halles topic - Mr Bourdain seems to rate Scott Bryan significantly higher than himself as a chef and I'm to take his advice in this instance!

I'm with Bourdain. Count me among those who think highly of Scott Bryan's abilities and really love his food. And I have loved it ever since I first ate some astoundingly delicious meals when he was cooking at Luma. Since I don't drink -- although I have recently been making progress at acquiring a taste for sweet wines to accompany foie gras -- I do go to Veritas for the food. And I have yet to be disappointed.

Re: Les Halles. It's not so much the food that puts me off as it is the atmospherics: sardine-style seating, smoke wafting over me and my food from the scene at the bar, and deafening noise levels.

[weinoo]

(mogsob,Feb 11 2003, 10:54 AM)

I have been to Balthazar several times for dinner, and on each occassion found (a) significant errors in the preparation of the dishes (e.g., overcooked, overseasoned, poorly cut) and (b) servers who couldn't care less about my needs (e.g., ordering, bringing water, bringing wine, serving the food upon completion in the kitchen).

What I find weird is that I have never had that experience at Balthazar...as a matter of fact, I find it to be quite the opposite...friendly service with a smile, food hot out of the kitchen correctly prepared, etc. etc.

Did you send your poorly seasoned or incorrectly cooked food back?

Judging from how Balthazar operates, it exists for the scene, namely celebs and wannabes who are more concerned about cocktails and ambiance than in food and proper service.

In your humble opinion, of course. However, in NYC, most places that exist solely for the scene don't last and Balthazar's been around for quite a few years. And I can't remember the last celeb I saw at Balthazar - I'd venture a guess that a lot more celebs dine at Daniel/Le Cirque/Nello et.al. than at Balthazar. And what the heck do celebs know about food anyway? I have read that Daniel happens to like Balthazar, however (I just can't remember where I read it!).

A serious restaurant puts the emphasis on food preparation and service, and those two things are not exclusive to expensive restaurants.

Agreed, though there might be a better word than serious for this type of place.

Edited February 11, 2003 by weinoo (log)

[Suzanne F]

I certainly can't quibble with your choices...but... you must really like Chef Daniel B....and wasn't he the original chef at Montrachet as well?

No, that was David Bouley.

[weinoo]

I certainly can't quibble with your choices...but... you must really like Chef Daniel B....and wasn't he the original chef at Montrachet as well?

No, that was David Bouley.

Ahhh, thanks!

And sorry about my last post being screwed up, just can't figure out what I did wrong there.

[g.johnson]

I certainly can't quibble with your choices...but... you must really like Chef Daniel B....and wasn't he the original chef at Montrachet as well?

No, that was David Bouley.

Ahhh, thanks!

And sorry about my last post being screwed up, just can't figure out what I did wrong there.

No opening [ on the first

[Bux]

On the Daniel Boulud influence, the correction has already been made that it was Bouley who opened as chef at Montrachet. You might be interested to know that the two chefs at Balthazar (they are also chefs at Patis and alternate which kitchen they are in) are both Daniel alums. I would not in anyway describe the food as Daniel-like. I'm trying to think of the best way to describe the food without seeming to apologize for it or unduly praise it. It's casual food. It's not food you're going to spend a lot of time analyzing. In that way, it's true to it's image as a brasserie. It's a great place to order raw oysters. my biggest criticism of my meals has been that a few dishes come garnished with copious amounts of frisee which could make ordering the frisee salad the boring mistake I once made. A pity no one's intstructed the wait staff to advise the diners.

[jamal]

(weinoo @ Feb 11 2003, 11:16 AM) I have read that Daniel happens to like Balthazar, however (I just can't remember where I read it!).

The New York Times Sunday Magazine

[weinoo]

The New York Times Sunday Magazine

Once again, thanks for jogging the memory!

And Bux, you hit the nail on the head...no need for analysis there. I'd venture a guess that Balthazar will still be going strong 10 years down the road.

[Bux]

I'd venture a guess that Balthazar will still be going strong 10 years down the road.

You could well be right. I gave it a couple of years before the buzz would be off the place and they'd be begging to have locals drop in for dinner without reservations. It just doesn't look as if that's ever going to happen. They seem to have a strong popularity with a broad number of groups.