Custom Polycarbonate Molds

[Jim D.]

I have seen this from @pastrygirl:

 

Quote

I've looked into custom molds through Tomric in NY and the polycarbonate is less than $10 per mold but the die tooling is $200-300 plus possibly some design time.

 

and am wondering if others have possible sources for custom molds (I have not had any success getting a response from Tomric on another custom project). Thanks for any help.

[Kerry Beal]

Micelli -  talk to Mike

Edited June 2, 2017 by Kerry Beal (log)

[pastrygirl]

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I have not had any success getting a response from Tomric on another custom project

 

That sucks. Did you use the contact form on the website or just email?  

 

I've been working with Jennine - jTaberski@tomric dot com. Tell her  Andrea at Dolcetta sent you. It's a little frustrating to work through a rep rather than directly with the designer, but we are getting close - I'm awaiting a cavity sample of the latest version.   And I don't know where I got that "less than $10", maybe for very thin molds but I'm going heavier gauge and buying less than 100 so mine will be closer to $15 each plus around $700 total tooling & die making expenses. This is for the cheaper thermoformed molds, not the injection molds that we are used to from Chocolate World etc. 

 

I don't have the impression that you're doing very high volume so the overhead at tomric or micelli may be prohibitive if you only want 10 of something. Is there anyone in your area with a 3D printer that could help? Or experienced with silicone mold making? I met a soap maker at a holiday show who made all his own really detailed molds and does custom work, I'll see if I can find a name, might be worth contacting just to see your range of options. 

 

Can I ask what you're hoping to

make? 

 

[Jim D.]

9 minutes ago, pastrygirl said:

 

That sucks. Did you use the contact form on the website or just email?  

 

I've been working with Jennine - jTaberski@tomric dot com. Tell her  Andrea at Dolcetta sent you. It's a little frustrating to work through a rep rather than directly with the designer, but we are getting close - I'm awaiting a cavity sample of the latest version.   And I don't know where I got that "less than $10", maybe for very thin molds but I'm going heavier gauge and buying less than 100 so mine will be closer to $15 each plus around $700 total tooling & die making expenses. This is for the cheaper thermoformed molds, not the injection molds that we are used to from Chocolate World etc. 

 

I don't have the impression that you're doing very high volume so the overhead at tomric or micelli may be prohibitive if you only want 10 of something. Is there anyone in your area with a 3D printer that could help? Or experienced with silicone mold making? I met a soap maker at a holiday show who made all his own really detailed molds and does custom work, I'll see if I can find a name, might be worth contacting just to see your range of options. 

 

Can I ask what you're hoping to

make? 

 

 

Thanks for the reply and helpful suggestions. I have sent a quote request to Micelli. They are somewhat expensive ($4,250 for 100 custom molds)--but I say "somewhat" because that comes out to $42.50 per mold, which is not that much more than some vendors charge for stock molds. I do like the fact that--unlike any other custom manufacturer I have encountered--they actually provide an estimated price on their website. You are correct that my volume doesn't justify buying so many molds, but I am working on increasing sales and if these molds were to turn out as I imagine, they would become my go-to mold. Or perhaps I could sell some of the molds to others. The long version of the story:  At the Vegas workshop in May, literally every chocolatier we encountered used demisphere molds, and after watching Jin, Melissa, and Lionel (who works with Jean-Marie Auboine) decorate demispheres, I fully understand why this is THE mold (at one point I was in JMA's "mold closet" and couldn't even count the demispheres). These molds make decorating with cocoa butter so much easier and more attractive (in both hand-decorating and spray- painting applications). The three of them used what appeared to be Chocolate World's #1217 (30mm in diameter) , and Melissa Coppel also used #2002 (39mm) for her more elaborate decorations. I produce larger chocolates than a 30mm demisphere makes (9 grams), but a 39mm one (19 grams) would be out of proportion to my other chocolates. Thus the quest for something in between (I'm thinking 34mm, which I'm estimating would be about 14 grams).

 

I will try Tomric once more. But I do not understand companies that do not respond to contact forms, emails, or phone calls--I tried all three--and am not sure what more I can do aside from flying to Buffalo and knocking down the door. I did get one reply to a contact form asking for more info, but when I provided that, I heard nothing more. In contrast, yesterday I contacted a thermoforming company about another project, had a response within an hour or so, and am well on the way to getting an estimate.

[pastrygirl]

Well at least hemispheres should be super easy for design once someone does actually respond.  It sucks to feel ignored, especially when there are so few options for this service. 

 

I found the soap guy I was thinking of, not what you need for this, but if you ever want to make your favorite pet/car/creature in chocolate ...  I believe he hand-carves in clay then makes a silicone mold.  https://sculpturesoap.com/

 

Anyway, are you stuck on hemispheres or do taller domes appeal?  Sounds like you want 15 grams plus or minus 1 or 2?  The CW 2295 is one I like, I just weighed a few pieces that came in at 12 grams. http://www.chocolat-chocolat.com/home/chocolate-molds/chocolate-molds-chocolate-world/cw2000-to-cw2400/p17532691.html

[pastrygirl]

CW1433 looks good

 

http://shop.tomric.com/Product/I-1433/Dome_Mold.aspx

 

https://www.pastrychefsboutique.com/chocolate-world/648986-chocolate-world-cw1433-polycarbonate-chocolate-dome-mold29x25-mm-24-cavity-15g-modern-shaped-molds.html

 

also 1157 & 2116:  http://www.chocolateworld.be/en/add.asp?g=praline+moulds&cat=Spheres

 

I mean, if it's worth it to you to pay extra to get exactly what you want, I don't want to discourage you, and you may very well be able to sell the extra molds.  I'm doing custom bar molds because I didn't find anything in the right weight range that felt special enough yet not a nightmare to polish.  I'm going to focus on acquiring new wholesale accounts in the fall with the new bars in new packaging plus nutrition info, so hopefully the investment will pay off.  But I don't buy those $50 chocolate molds you speak of, I much prefer $20-25 so I can get more of them, or other toys, like a large stone remnant for the kitchen that I need to figure out how to lift onto the table without breaking ... today's challenge!

Edited June 2, 2017 by pastrygirl
more shopping (log)

[Jim D.]

I have the 15g and 18g domes. The latter are a little large, though they come in handy for Greweling's recipe where he calls for submerging a whole hazelnut in ganache. But it's the shape I am concerned about at this point. I know you have taken a Coppel class and probably saw her paint with a foam brush meticulous lines and other shapes in a demisphere (or hemisphere) mold; that's practically impossible to do in a dome. And airbrushing a dome usually means (for me) unsprayed areas and/or streaking of the cocoa butter. This tends not to happen so much in a half-sphere. I'll see how the estimates come in.

[Kerry Beal]

 Cabrallon 6024 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Kerry Beal (log)

[pastrygirl]

7 hours ago, Jim D. said:

know you have taken a Coppel class and probably saw her paint with a foam brush meticulous lines and other shapes in a demisphere (or hemisphere) mold; that's practically impossible to do in a dome. And airbrushing a dome usually means (for me) unsprayed areas and/or streaking of the cocoa butter.

 

True, the shape does have distinct advantages.  And I'm not pretending to be an expert, I've barely played with my airbrush because I got frustrated that coverage wasn't better.  But

 

10 hours ago, Jim D. said:

$4,250 for 100 custom molds

 

could buy a whoooooole lot of cocoa butter to practice with!

 

Melissa's airbrush set-up seemed like overkill, but maybe you really need to get more cocoa butter in there than you think?  Lay it on thick, just not so thick that it drips?

 

Anyway, good luck!

 

[Jim D.]

7 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

 Cabrallon 6024 

 

 

If that is the mold identified on Chocolat-Chocolat as ART6024, it is 29mm in diameter, so less than the CW 30mm one.

 

By the way, I learned that Mike has been gone from Micelli for several years, so I will be talking to John Micelli.

[Kerry Beal]

1 hour ago, Jim D. said:

 

If that is the mold identified on Chocolat-Chocolat as ART6024, it is 29mm in diameter, so less than the CW 30mm one.

 

By the way, I learned that Mike has been gone from Micelli for several years, so I will be talking to John Micelli.

Yup - I get their names mixed every time!

[Jim D.]

On 6/2/2017 at 10:51 AM, pastrygirl said:

I've been working with Jennine - jTaberski@tomric dot com. Tell her  Andrea at Dolcetta sent you. 

 

 

Thanks for the tip, which has paid off. Jennine answered my email immediately and referred me to Sean Tucci, who handles custom molds at Tomric. Today (just one day later) I got a quote from him (appreciably less than the other company, which never returned my call).

[pastrygirl]

Since this is the custom mold topic -

 

I've gone through a couple of design stages with Tomric and have the pretty bar without too many corners I was looking for.  I've been doing the cheaper thermo-formed molds instead of the injection polycarbonate that we are used to in professional molds because of price, but now I'm so torn.  I've been trying to convince myself I can make them work, and I'm sure I can, but I also want durability and what can I say, I like nice toys.  I usually hold molds in my left hand and scrape with my right.  These feel unstable for that, I'll try a bar or rack over my melter to rest them on while scraping.

 

If I stay with the cheap ones, total project is around $1800 for 60 molds.  If I switch now, it's another $800.  Which isn't that much if I sell tens of thousands of chocolate bars over the next few years, which of course is the plan.  Will I be happier making them all with heavier molds?  Hmmm.

 

What would you do?  Stay cheap or go big?

[Kerry Beal]

Go big!

[Jim D.]

@pastrygirl, I have now gone through most of the process of having a custom injection mold made through Tomric and can probably answer some questions. I say "through Tomric" because it turned out that apparently Chocolate World actually makes the molds. It has been a lengthy process, and we are now quite a bit behind schedule. Apparently the Belgians take Fridays off! It is also, as you know, an expensive process. So far I have received a sample thermoformed single cavity, and it was fine. Mine is a very simple demisphere (or hemisphere, whichever term you prefer), but a midsize between the quite small one that is very common and the next size, which is huge. The minimum order was 100 molds, so I'll be hoping to sell some of them. Now I am waiting for a full injection mold sample, then the whole order will be manufactured.

 

The other company I mentioned earlier in this thread, Micelli, makes the molds in this country. The owner did finally get in touch (apparently there was a glitch in their website--I don't know what happened to the voicemail I left). Once I saw the extra shipping charges, etc., from Tomric, the prices at the two places are about the same. But you would not be interested in starting from scratch since you are already far along.

 

I did use the sample thermoformed cavity once. I wanted to see what the weight of a piece would be. It worked fine, but I think scraping it (if you scrape as vigorously as I do) would be a problem in the long term.

 

If you want to know more about my experience, just ask. And if you wish to buy some nice brand-new demisphere molds, maybe around Thanksgiving, just let me know. 

[pastrygirl]

17 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

I say "through Tomric" because it turned out that apparently Chocolate World actually makes the molds. It has been a lengthy process, and we are now quite a bit behind schedule. Apparently the Belgians take Fridays off! It is also, as you know, an expensive process. So far I have received a sample thermoformed single cavity, and it was fine. Mine is a very simple demisphere (or hemisphere, whichever term you prefer), but a midsize between the quite small one that is very common and the next size, which is huge. The minimum order was 100 molds, so I'll be hoping to sell some of them. Now I am waiting for a full injection mold sample, then the whole order will be manufactured.

 

Interesting, I had not gotten that impression, and was just quoted this when I asked about volume price breaks:

For the .125” polycarbonate:

                $19.95/mould for 10-49 moulds

                $17.95/mould for 50-99 moulds

                $16.15/mould for 100 -199 moulds

                $14.50/mould for 200+ moulds

Maybe the .125" is still not actually injection, just thicker?  Do you know the thickness on the molds you're getting?

20 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

It worked fine, but I think scraping it (if you scrape as vigorously as I do) would be a problem in the long term.

This is exactly my concern.  I think I'll be happier in the long run if I go with the heavier, just sort of kicking myself for my indecision costing me extra. 

[Jim D.]

This is copied from the quote I was given:

 

Mold Charge: $ 22.95 per Mold in Quantities of 100 Molds
$20.50 per Mold in Quantities of 150 Molds
$ 18.50 per Mold in Quantities of 200 Molds

 

I was assured these are "like the injection style Chocolate World moulds." I don't know the thickness of the polycarbonate, but am due to get the sample mold soon. 

[JeanneCake]

3 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

Since this is the custom mold topic -

 

I've gone through a couple of design stages with Tomric and have the pretty bar without too many corners I was looking for.  I've been doing the cheaper thermo-formed molds instead of the injection polycarbonate that we are used to in professional molds because of price, but now I'm so torn.  I've been trying to convince myself I can make them work, and I'm sure I can, but I also want durability and what can I say, I like nice toys.  I usually hold molds in my left hand and scrape with my right.  These feel unstable for that, I'll try a bar or rack over my melter to rest them on while scraping.

 

If I stay with the cheap ones, total project is around $1800 for 60 molds.  If I switch now, it's another $800.  Which isn't that much if I sell tens of thousands of chocolate bars over the next few years, which of course is the plan.  Will I be happier making them all with heavier molds?  Hmmm.

 

What would you do?  Stay cheap or go big?

 

I have never regretted spending the $ when I'm in the thick of things (e.g., running a little late ) and having the extra weight/size/the right tool for the job.  Having the wrong tool makes my life miserable.  Will you be thankful every time you can scrape the molds without worrying you're exerting too much pressure?  How much aggravation will it be to have to deal with the bar or rack to rest them on (I feel like I'm speaking a different language - I have no idea what scraping, a bar, a rack or a melter IS! LOL)  So yes, spend the $ now, you will be happy you did later.  The return on the investment will happen.

[teonzo]

3 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

I usually hold molds in my left hand and scrape with my right.  These feel unstable for that, I'll try a bar or rack over my melter to rest them on while scraping.

 

Uhm, why are you scraping a molded chocolate bar? Did you include a ganache or something else?

If the bar is pure chocolate, then it's better to pour the desired amount of chocolate into the mold (if you don't have a machine like the ones by Selmi, then use a ladle / pastry bag and a scale), then vibrate it. There's no need to scrape the mold, doing so is less efficient, plus it's a nightmare if the molds are a bit flexible.

 

There is also another option: really thin thermo-formed molds (less than 0.02 inches), not re-usable, to be sold with the bar. This is what we did at the chocolatier where I staged years ago: put the molds on a pan (9 molds on each pan, 3x3), pour chocolate on each mold (having a Selmi with the automatic dosing mechanism helped a bit, but using a scale doesn't take more than scraping), vibrate the pan, let the chocolate set, then package the mold (with the bar still inside) in the carton box. Those kind of molds come pretty cheap (much less than a dollar) if you buy them in good numbers (more than 1000). They have various advantages: they help about packaging; they are an added value at the eyes of the customers; your costs are totally predictable (meaning you don't risk to break/ruin some sturdy molds and re-buy them); you save time on cleaning molds; it's more difficult for the bar to break during handling / storing / shipping.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[teonzo]

You can see some examples in this catalogue, page 23.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[pastrygirl]

2 hours ago, teonzo said:

Uhm, why are you scraping a molded chocolate bar? Did you include a ganache or something else?

 

Yes, they all have layers of filling, I don't do anything plain.  Since I'm not making bean to bar but using already made chocolate, I feel like I have to add something special.  It would be much easier to just fill it up and be done, but nooooo, that's not my style

 

Thanks for the link, though - some beautiful packaging!

 

 

 

 

[pastrygirl]

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

This is copied from the quote I was given:

 

Mold Charge: $ 22.95 per Mold in Quantities of 100 Molds
$20.50 per Mold in Quantities of 150 Molds
$ 18.50 per Mold in Quantities of 200 Molds

 

I was assured these are "like the injection style Chocolate World moulds." I don't know the thickness of the polycarbonate, but am due to get the sample mold soon. 

 

How strange.  Maybe we are getting different things?  Or is a perfect demisphere somehow so highly technical that they have to farm it out to CW?  If I upgrade it's $500 to re-do the tooling in metal, not sure what it was done in for this round.

 

The chocolate life continues to provide us with mysteries!

 

But thanks to all for the enabling, I'm just about convinced to go big.  I've been trying so hard the past few years to keep my spending super tight, especially in the summer when sales tank, but this is probably actually worth it.

[teonzo]

18 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

Yes, they all have layers of filling, I don't do anything plain.  Since I'm not making bean to bar but using already made chocolate, I feel like I have to add something special.

 

Understood. In this case then just go big, spend more now to save much more later. You need to think about molds durability too: if you spend 1/2 now, but the molds will get ruined in 1/4 of the time, then you save money now, but you will loose later. There's not much sense to go the middle way on these things.

 

I would strongly suggest to add plain bars to your production. I understand your reasons, especially with producer eyes, but the customers have a different view. Plain bars are always a good pull for other sales, meaning that most probably if you add them to your product choice then your sales of filled bars will increase too. The market for plain bars is way bigger than the market for filled ones. A person searching to buy a couple of plain bars will not stop at your business since you don't carry them; if you have them, it's possible he/she will add a filled one for curiosity or else. If in your market you are competing with a good number of bean-to-bar producers, then try to limit your costs, it's easier to sell a $4 bar (re-melted from Valrhona or others) than a $8 bar (prices for bean to bar operations are always much bigger).

I would also suggest to go to a library and look for a couple of books regarding psychology applied to marketing. It's one of the best time investment a producer can make, there's a lot of stuff to learn on these things, a good amount of them are counter-intuitive.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[pastrygirl]

@Teo, I see what you're saying about plain, maybe I can do a unique blend or a really fine inclusion that will mix in for one-shot depositing. 

[Jim D.]

If there are bean-to-bar manufacturers in the Seattle area (which I suspect there are), I can't see how you could compete with what they make because even if their product isn't that fantastic, it will still have the bean-to-bar cachet. I always respect what Teo says, but in my experience, most customers prefer filled chocolates--after all, they can go to a grocery store and get a decent bar of chocolate at a low price, even in my small city.