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scott123

scott123

15 hours ago, Merkinz said:

However it was the bottled water that showed less rise than the others 🤷‍♂️


The conclusion that you're reaching is not quite as cut and dry as you think :)

Gluten traps water, and yeast relies on water activity to do their thing, so a stronger/higher gluten dough will have less yeast activity and rise slower.  But... a stronger dough, if given enough time, should, if compared to a dough with insufficient strength, eventually reach a higher peak. While I applaud your drive to get to the bottom of this so quickly, when you change the strength of the dough (with harder water), you're slowing down the rise, so, when you compare doughs side by side, it's apples to oranges.

You look at the bottled water dough ball and condemn it for not rising as much, and I look at it and say that, since it didn't rise as much, it's proof that it's stronger dough, and thus the harder bottled water is superior- and, had you measure where the doughs eventually peaked, the bottled water version would have risen higher.

Dough (and ultimately crust) volume relies on two primary factors - yeast activity and gluten development.  Gluten forms the structure of the bubble and yeast blows it up.  You had two separate potential issues - water chemistry/softness and yeast viability. 

Long story short, the Tongariro, at 150 total dissolved solids (that's one number you want to look at), and a relative neutral pH (that's the other number), is a solid choice for water.  It also shouldn't be heavily chlorinated.  Chlorination can get a bit contentious :)  For the longest time, I came to the simple conclusion that chlorine, being anti-fungal, is bad for yeast.  I actually had a swimming pool analogy that Tony Gemignani 'borrowed' for his Pizza Bible :)  It was later pointed out to me, though, that chlorine is incredibly reactive, and that flour gives it a boatload of overall surface area to react with. So, in theory, flour should quickly inactivate the anti-fungal properties of chlorine.  Still, if you don't dissolve yeast in water first, you can end up with pockets of undissolved yeast, so I'm a huge proponent of dissolving yeast (not proofing, but merely dissolving).  Since dissolving the yeast gives it some alone time with the water, then perhaps the chlorine can have an impact then.  So, while I don't have concrete data on chlorinated water's impact on yeast, I think it's wise to steer clear of heavily chlorinated water.

That solves your potential water issue. On the yeast front... I'm not enamored with the packaging on the Caputo yeast.  Ideally, this is how yeast should be bought and stored (in the fridge):

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fleischmann-s-Classic-Bread-Machine-Yeast-4-oz/10306744

 

Glass jar, metal lid with a rubber seal, air tight.  You can see how the Caputo yeast is not that.  I'm pretty sure there's a layer of foil somewhere in the structure, but, it feels a lot like a packet- and packets are super sketchy. Since you can't get jarred yeast in New Zealand.  I think your best bet is vacuum packed. I'm not familiar with this brand, but you want something like this

https://realfooddirect.co.nz/products/bakels-instant-active-dried-yeast

The split second you open it, you'll want to transfer it to a mason jar- and store it in the fridge.

Not that it's time to completely give up on the Caputo. Try the Caputo with warmer water. A stable room temp will always be your best bet.  Since you're (now) using bottled water, try to find an area of the home that's got a fairly stable temp and store the water (and the flour) there- and proof your dough there as well. Stability is more important than a higher temperature.  You want an area where, every time you make the dough, the flour, the water and the proof are all at the same temp.

I took the yeast quantity for this recipe directly from the VPN guidelines.  I just checked my NY numbers, and, for a same day dough (about 6 hours), I'm at .46% IDY.  NY isn't Neapolitan, but, still, that's a pretty big discrepancy.  The VPN was fresh yeast only until a couple years ago, so maybe they're a bit off with the conversion.  While I kind of like deferring to their (typically) extensive knowledge, I think we can come to the conclusion that .06% isn't going to cut it- either with Caputo yeast or another brand. A jump to .4% could be a little extreme.  I would, on your next batch, try .2.  IDY should weigh 3.2g per teaspoon.  Yeast isn't compactible, so measuring it by volume is perfectly fine.  1/2 teaspoon will put you at .19%.  That's what I'd go with.

TL;DR Next time, go with the Tongariro and 1/2 t. of the Caputo. And maybe order some vacuum packed yeast.

scott123

scott123

15 hours ago, Merkinz said:

However it was the bottled water that showed less rise than the others 🤷‍♂️


The conclusion that you're reaching is not quite as cut and dry as you think :)

Gluten traps water, and yeast relies on water activity to do their thing, so a stronger/higher gluten dough will have less yeast activity and rise slower.  But... a stronger dough, if given enough time, should, if compared to a dough with insufficient strength, eventually reach a higher peak. While I applaud your drive to get to the bottom of this so quickly, when you change the strength of the dough (with harder water), you're slowing down the rise, so, when you compare doughs side by side, it's apples to oranges.

You look at the bottled water dough ball and condemn it for not rising as much, and I look at it and say that, since it didn't rise as much, it's proof that it's stronger dough, and thus the harder bottled water is superior- and, had you measure where the doughs eventually peaked, the bottled water version would have risen higher.

Dough (and ultimately crust) volume relies on two primary factors - yeast activity and gluten development.  Gluten forms the structure of the bubble and yeast blows it up.  You had two separate potential issues - water chemistry/softness and yeast viability. 

Long story short, the Tongariro, at 150 total dissolved solids (that's one number you want to look at), and a relative neutral pH (that's the other number), is a solid choice for water.  It also shouldn't be heavily chlorinated.  Chlorination can get a bit contentious :)  For the longest time, I came to the simple conclusion that chlorine, being anti-fungal, is bad for yeast.  I actually had a swimming pool analogy that Tony Gemignani 'borrowed' for his Pizza Bible :)  It was later pointed out to me, though, that chlorine is incredibly reactive, and that flour gives it a boatload of overall surface area to react with. So, in theory, flour should quickly inactivate the anti-fungal properties of yeast.  Still, if you don't dissolve yeast in water first, you can end up with pockets of undissolved yeast, so I'm a huge proponent of dissolving yeast (not proofing, but merely dissolving).  Since dissolving the yeast gives it some alone time with the water, then perhaps the chlorine can have an impact then.  So, while I don't have concrete data on chlorinated water's impact on yeast, I think it's wise to steer clear of heavily chlorinated water.

That solves your potential water issue. On the yeast front... I'm not enamored with the packaging on the Caputo yeast.  Ideally, this is how yeast should be bought and stored (in the fridge):

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fleischmann-s-Classic-Bread-Machine-Yeast-4-oz/10306744

 

Glass jar, metal lid with a rubber seal, air tight.  You can see how the Caputo yeast is not that.  I'm pretty sure there's a layer of foil somewhere in the structure, but, it feels a lot like a packet- and packets are super sketchy. Since you can't get jarred yeast in New Zealand.  I think your best bet is vacuum packed. I'm not familiar with this brand, but you want something like this

https://realfooddirect.co.nz/products/bakels-instant-active-dried-yeast

The split second you open it, you'll want to transfer it to a mason jar- and store it in the fridge.

Not that it's time to completely give up on the Caputo. Try the Caputo with warmer water. A stable room temp will always be your best bet.  Since you're (now) using bottled water, try to find an area of the home that's got a fairly stable temp and store the water (and the flour) there- and proof your dough there as well. Stability is more important than a higher temperature.  You want an area where, every time you make the dough, the flour, the water and the proof are all at the same temp.

I took the yeast quantity for this recipe directly from the VPN guidelines.  I just checked my NY numbers, and, for a same day dough (about 6 hours), I'm at .46% IDY.  NY isn't Neapolitan, but, still, that's a pretty big discrepancy.  The VPN was fresh yeast only until a couple years ago, so maybe they're a bit off with the conversion.  While I kind of like deferring to their (typically) extensive knowledge, I think we can come to the conclusion that .06% isn't going to cut it- either with Caputo yeast or another brand. A jump to .4% could be a little extreme.  I would, on your next batch, try .2.  IDY should weigh 3.2g per teaspoon.  Yeast isn't compactible, so measuring it by volume is perfectly fine.  1/2 teaspoon will put you at .19%.  That's what I'd go with.

TL;DR Next time, go with the Tongariro and 1/2 t. of the Caputo. And maybe order some vacuum packed yeast.

scott123

scott123

15 hours ago, Merkinz said:

However it was the bottled water that showed less rise than the others 🤷‍♂️


The conclusion that you're reaching is not quite as cut and dry as you think :)

Gluten traps water, and yeast relies on water activity to do their thing, so a stronger/higher gluten dough will have less yeast activity and rise slower.  But... a stronger dough, if given enough time, should, if compared to a dough with insufficient strength, eventually reach a higher peak. While I applaud your drive to get to the bottom of this so quickly, when you change the strength of the dough (with harder water), you're slowing down the rise, so, when you compare doughs side by side, it's apples to oranges.

You look at the bottled water dough ball and condemn it for not rising as much, and I look at it and say that, since it didn't rise as much, it's proof that it's stronger dough, and thus the harder bottled water is superior- and, had you measure where the doughs eventually peaked, the bottled water version would have risen higher.

Dough (and ultimately crust) volume relies on two primary factors - yeast activity and gluten development.  Gluten forms the structure of the bubble and yeast blows it up.  You had two separate potential issues - water chemistry/softness and yeast viability. 

Long story short, the Tongariro, at 150 total dissolved solids (that's one number you want to look at), and a relative neutral pH (that's the other number), is a solid choice for water.  It also shouldn't be heavily chlorinated.  Chlorination can get a bit contentious :)  For the longest time, I came to the simple conclusion that chlorine, being anti-fungal, is bad for yeast.  I actually had a swimming pool analogy that Tony Gemignani 'borrowed' for his Pizza Bible :)  It was later pointed out to me, though, that chlorine is incredibly reactive, and that flour gives it a boatload of overall surface area to react with. So, in theory, flour should quickly inactivate the anti-fungal properties of yeast.  Still, if you don't dissolve yeast in water first, you can end up with pockets of undissolved yeast, so I'm a huge proponent of dissolving yeast (not proofing, but merely dissolving).  Since dissolving the yeast gives it some alone time with the water, then perhaps the chlorine can have an impact then.  So, while I don't have concrete data on chlorinated water's impact on yeast, I think it's wise to steer clear of heavily chlorinated water.

That solves your potential water issue. On the yeast front... I'm not enamored with the packaging on the Caputo yeast.  Ideally, this is how yeast should be bought and stored (in the fridge):

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fleischmann-s-Classic-Bread-Machine-Yeast-4-oz/10306744

 

Glass jar, metal lid with a rubber seal, air tight.  You can see how the Caputo yeast is not that.  I'm pretty sure there's a layer of foil somewhere in the structure, but, it feels a lot like a packet- and packets are super sketchy. Since you can't get jarred yeast in New Zealand.  I think your best bet is vacuum packed. I'm not familiar with this brand, but you want something like this

https://realfooddirect.co.nz/products/bakels-instant-active-dried-yeast

The split second you open it, you'll want to transfer it to a mason jar- and store it in the fridge.

Not that it's time to completely give up on the Caputo. Try the Caputo with warmer water. A stable room temp will always be your best bet.  Since you're (now) using bottled water, try to find an area of the home that's got a fairly stable temp and store the water (and the flour) there.

I took the yeast quantity for this recipe directly from the VPN guidelines.  I just checked my NY numbers, and, for a same day dough (about 6 hours), I'm at .46% IDY.  NY isn't Neapolitan, but, still, that's a pretty big discrepancy.  The VPN was fresh yeast only until a couple years ago, so maybe they're a bit off with the conversion.  While I kind of like deferring to their (typically) extensive knowledge, I think we can come to the conclusion that .06% isn't going to cut it- either with Caputo yeast or another brand. A jump to .4% could be a little extreme.  I would, on your next batch, try .2.  IDY should weigh 3.2g per teaspoon.  Yeast isn't compactible, so measuring it by volume is perfectly fine.  1/2 teaspoon will put you at .19%.  That's what I'd go with.

TL;DR Next time, go with the Tongariro and 1/2 t. of the Caputo. And maybe order some vacuum packed yeast.

scott123

scott123

13 hours ago, Merkinz said:

However it was the bottled water that showed less rise than the others 🤷‍♂️


The conclusion that you're reaching is not quite as cut and dry as you think :)

Gluten traps water, and yeast relies on water activity to do their thing, so a stronger/higher gluten dough will have less yeast activity and rise slower.  But... a stronger dough, if given enough time, should, if compared to a dough with insufficient strength, eventually reach a higher peak. While I applaud your drive to get to the bottom of this so quickly, when you change the strength of the dough (with harder water), you're slowing down the rise, so, when you compare doughs side by side, it's apples to oranges.

You look at the bottled water dough ball and condemn it for not rising as much, and I look at it and say that, since it didn't rise as much, it's proof that it's stronger dough, and thus the harder bottled water is superior- and, had you measure where the doughs eventually peaked, the bottled water version would have risen higher.

Dough (and ultimately crust) volume relies on two primary factors - yeast activity and gluten development.  Gluten forms the structure of the bubble and yeast blows it up.  You had two separate potential issues - water chemistry/softness and yeast viability. 

Long story short, the Tongariro, at 150 total dissolved solids (that's one number you want to look at), and a relative neutral pH (that's the other number), is a solid choice for water.  It also shouldn't be heavily chlorinated.  Chlorination can get a bit contentious :)  For the longest time, I came to the simple conclusion that chlorine, being anti-fungal, is bad for yeast.  I actually had a swimming pool analogy that Tony Gemignani 'borrowed' for his Pizza Bible :)  It was later pointed out to me, though, that chlorine is incredibly reactive, and that flour gives it a boatload of overall surface area to react with. So, in theory, flour should quickly inactivate the anti-fungal properties of yeast.  Still, if you don't dissolve yeast in water first, you can end up with pockets of undissolved yeast, so I'm a huge proponent of dissolving yeast (not proofing, but merely dissolving).  Since dissolving the yeast gives it some alone time with the water, then perhaps the chlorine can have an impact then.  So, while I don't have concrete data on chlorinated water's impact on yeast, I think it's wise to steer clear of heavily chlorinated water.

That solves your potential water issue. On the yeast front... I'm not enamored with the packaging on the Caputo yeast.  Ideally, this is how yeast should be bought and stored (in the fridge):

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fleischmann-s-Classic-Bread-Machine-Yeast-4-oz/10306744

 

Glass jar, metal lid with a rubber seal, air tight.  You can see how the Caputo yeast is not that.  I'm pretty sure there's a layer of foil somewhere in the structure, but, it feels a lot like a packet- and packets are super sketchy. Since you can't get jarred yeast in New Zealand.  I think your best bet is vacuum packed. I'm not familiar with this brand, but you want something like this

https://realfooddirect.co.nz/products/bakels-instant-active-dried-yeast

The split second you open it, you'll want to transfer it to a mason jar- and store it in the fridge.

Not that it's time to completely give up on the Caputo.  Since you're (now) using bottled water, try to find an area of the home that's got a fairly stable temp and store the water (and the flour) there.

I took the yeast quantity for this recipe directly from the VPN guidelines.  I just checked my NY numbers, and, for a same day dough (about 6 hours), I'm at .46% IDY.  NY isn't Neapolitan, but, still, that's a pretty big discrepancy.  The VPN was fresh yeast only until a couple years ago, so maybe they're a bit off with the conversion.  While I kind of like deferring to their (typically) extensive knowledge, I think we can come to the conclusion that .06% isn't going to cut it- either with Caputo yeast or another brand. A jump to .4% could be a little extreme.  I would, on your next batch, try .2.  IDY should weigh 3.2g per teaspoon.  Yeast isn't compactible, so measuring it by volume is perfectly fine.  1/2 teaspoon will put you at .19%.  That's what I'd go with.

TL;DR Next time, go with the Tongariro and 1/2 t. of the Caputo. And maybe order some vacuum packed yeast.

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