Various Chinese cuisines

[herbacidal]

Herbacidal, I should have been more precise: the official way of writing in China is with simplified characters. Just like the official dialect is Mandarin but in a country of 1.6 billion (isn't it something like that?)  there are still many who don't speak the official dialect.

In SE Asia, they might be from Southern China but the dialect they are taught in schools (at least in Singapore/Malaysia) is Mandarin. Many of my friends (from Singapore and Malaysia) also speak several other dialects, like Hakka, Fujian.

that's more like what i would expect. thanks for clarifying.

When I first came to HK, I tried speaking my family's dialect (which I don't know fluently): Toi San. The looks I got were dreadful - like I was some little peasant straight from the countryside. It might also have been my awful American accent mixed in with the village dialect.

very common reaction I would expect. Hong Kongers are like that, somewhat uppity. no different than many American attitudes towards those with heavy Southern accents.

but yes, it may have been exacerbated by the American accent.

how long have you been in HK? how long did you live in the US, from what age to what age? How old are you?

I don't know any ABCs personally in HK, though the idea has been mentioned to me before.

[KatieLoeb]

Can someone tell me if I am correct in assuming that "ABC" means "American Born Chinese"?

[aprilmei]

Katie, you're correct. Just as BBC means British born Chinese and CBC means Canadian born Chinese. We've taken up several of the TV stations.

Herbacidal, I'm also ABC. Moved here 10 years ago. There are lots of us here - and everybody seems to know everybody else! It's a city of more than six million, but in the ABC and OC (overseas Chinese) community, it's something like two degrees of separation rather than six (someone is always a friend of a friend).

[Gary Soup]

Can someone tell me if I am correct in assuming that "ABC" means "American Born Chinese"?

Don't know if it's still current slang, but the opposite number of an "ABC" used to be called an "FOB" (Fresh Off the Boat) in San Francisco Chinatown.

[herbacidal]

Can someone tell me if I am correct in assuming that "ABC" means "American Born Chinese"?

most often, for me ABC does mean American Born Chinese.

But for me, it also means American Born Confused.

First Generation Americans with a strong sense of their native culture and a inevitably a strong American identity, and often confused about where they sit within the whole scheme.

As opposed to me, with a strong sense of my Chinese identity, a strong American identity, and fully aware of my place between the two, and just really annoyed at where I am between the two!

Jeez, always defending Americans to the Chinese, defending the Chinese to the Americans.

[herbacidal]

Katie, you're correct. Just as BBC means British born Chinese and CBC means Canadian born Chinese. We've taken up several of the TV stations.

Herbacidal, I'm also ABC. Moved here 10 years ago. There are lots of us here - and everybody seems to know everybody else! It's a city of more than six million, but in the ABC and OC (overseas Chinese) community, it's something like two degrees of separation rather than six (someone is always a friend of a friend).

never heard the BBC and CBC ones, but obviously they make sense.

but what about Australian born Chinese??

And Argentinian born Chinese?

I heard there's a decent size Chinese population there.

how big an ABC+OC population is there in HK?

50,000?

[herbacidal]

Not sure about the rest of South East Asia but the Chinese community in Malaysia are mainly from a mixture of southern dialect groups - here are some figures - 35% Hokkien, 23% Hakka, 19% Cantonese, 12% Teochew, 5% Hainanese and 6% others - this came from a recent local news article which reported that 80% of all Chinese programmes on a government TV channel will be in Mandarin. I think the Chinese in Singapore are from similar dialect groups as Malaysia but the percentage of Teochew is higher there.

Okay, that's fine. Useful to know, thanks.

Like Aprilmei, my impression is that the Chinese in Thailand are predominantly Teochew but have assimilated such that the younger generation no longer speak any Chinese. A friend whose mother is Thai Chinese has cousins who only speak Thai.

Also no suprise. There are ABC in US that barely speak any Chinese.

Most of the older generation here in Malaysia still speak dialects but those under the age of 25 are more likely to speak Mandarin than a dialect (that is if they can speak any Chinese at all - I have friends who don't as their parents do not share a common Chinese dialect and hence they converse in English) as Chinese schools here use Mandarin as the main medium of instruction (it's now the trend for Chinese parents here to send their kids to Chinese primary/grade shcool but wasn't so when I went to school). Cantonese is widely understood as HK drama serials are very popular here (on TV and video rentals).

Singapore had (has?) a speak Mandarin campaign and everyone there assumes that you do speak Mandarin if you look Chinese. HK Cantonese serials shown on TV in Singapore are dubbed in Mandarin.

Chinese schools in Malaysia use simplified Chinese now (has been so for the last 15 years or so in line with China, which uses simplified Chinese, rising from its economic slumber) and Singapore does too (earlier than Malaysia I think).

Also not particularly suprising, although useful to know nonetheless.

As far as the Mandarin goes, yea right in line with placating China. Official line, reality line.

There are 2 main Chinese newspapers in Malaysia, one's published in traditional Chinese characters whereas the other uses simplified Chinese characters.

This is intriguing. Are there papers in both simplified and traditional elsewhere in Asia as well? Don't know of any in simplified elsewhere offhand.

[aprilmei]

Australian born Chinese think they're ABCs too, but I always tell them they're wrong. When I first heard BBCs and Aussie-born Chinese speaking I couldn't believe my ears. It's disconserting to hear British or Australian accents coming out of Chinese faces. And one of my colleagues is from Scotland - she has a gorgeous Chinese face but when she opens her mouth, it's a thick Scottish accent (she keeps calling me a "wee lass"). I'm used to all the different accents now.

One of my friends back in the States is Chinese from Nicaragua. I asked her why her family went there - and she said that when her grandfather was trying to emigrate, he saw on the map "America". So he bought a ticket there. Problem was, he didn't look closely at the map - and he chose Central America, not North America

[herbacidal]

Can someone tell me if I am correct in assuming that "ABC" means "American Born Chinese"?

Don't know if it's still current slang, but the opposite number of an "ABC" used to be called an "FOB" (Fresh Off the Boat) in San Francisco Chinatown.

FOB is still used.

[tissue]

Can someone tell me if I am correct in assuming that "ABC" means "American Born Chinese"?

most often, for me ABC does mean American Born Chinese.

But for me, it also means American Born Confused.

First Generation Americans with a strong sense of their native culture and a inevitably a strong American identity, and often confused about where they sit within the whole scheme.

As opposed to me, with a strong sense of my Chinese identity, a strong American identity, and fully aware of my place between the two, and just really annoyed at where I am between the two!

Jeez, always defending Americans to the Chinese, defending the Chinese to the Americans.

I feel ya.... I have the same problems..

[FoodZealot]

Don't know if it's still current slang, but the opposite number of an "ABC" used to be called an "FOB" (Fresh Off the Boat) in San Francisco Chinatown.

FOB is still used.

In Hawaii, we use FOB for Fresh Off Boat (the article sounds too proper) and JOJ for Just Off Jet. [grin]

~Tad

[herbacidal]

Don't know if it's still current slang, but the opposite number of an "ABC" used to be called an "FOB" (Fresh Off the Boat) in San Francisco Chinatown.

FOB is still used.

In Hawaii, we use FOB for Fresh Off Boat (the article sounds too proper) and JOJ for Just Off Jet. [grin]

~Tad

i like JOJ, that's good.

must be really appropriate in parts of LA and Vancouver, too.

[goyatofu]

Being a bona fide "Chiu Chow Mui" (that's Cantonese for Chiu Chow girl)...have to pipe up o.k. so I'm not full-blooded Chiu Chow (my mom's side is from Hong Kong before it was even called Hong Kong, like a native!), but you always "follow" your dad's heritage.

"Teo Chew" is the pronunciation of the area name using the dialect in that area. The dialect is very different from Cantonese, my dad speaks it fluently and often boasts that he can use it to communicate with a large percentage of people in Malaysia/Indonesia (I'm not sure if it's one of those tall tales that all dads tell or what). He calls it one of the 4 main dialects in China: Mandarin, Shanghainese, Teo Chew, and Fook Jiang. (again, maybe this is just his Teo Chew pride speaking)

Chiu Chow Food: good goose! good tofu! but my favourite has to be the pickles! You see them served in a small plate in all Chiu Chow Restaurants. We used to polish them all right away and ask for more.

[aprilmei]

I love Chiu Chow soups and anything with those tiny oysters. Like ho jai jook (tiny oysters in jook), and oyster omelette, and that wonderful peppery soup with intestines and pickles. I also love those cold boiled flower crabs, and I recently tried at a very local Chiu Chow restaurant (local in Hong Kong, I mean) raw marinated crabs. Really salty, wine-y, rich and delicious - loads of roe in the crabs - but only the Chinese people at the table liked them.

[limengdi]

TEOCHIU PEOPLE: www.gaginang.org

OK, as someone who is part of a Teochiu Organization, 100% Teochiu and someone who just knows, here is the final list (to my personal knowledge) of romanization sources of this particular dialect group:

Teochiu, Teochew

From the dialect itself, the "T" does not reflect the way its actually pronounced. Why? Because that "T" if it were to be accurate in English, would be a "D". IPA (International Phonetic Standard) is used by many countries outside of the USA as a basis for their romanized languages on IPA, ie. Malaysia and Indonesia. Therefore, this spelling is popular in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore. (GOT IT?)

Chiu Chow (Cantonese)

Chao Zhou (Mandarin)

Trieu Chau (Vietnamese)

Tae Jiu (Thai)

Dio Jiu (Based on Peng Im, a Teochiu romanization standard)

The variety of spellings of my dialect group is a testimonial to how broad the diaspora was for Teochiu people.

If you are interested in more information of Teochiu people, please visit our NEW website:

WWW.GAGINANG.ORG

[jo-mel]

Even if this doesn't have anything to do with food----- It is 'food for thought' for me. I love this topic. The different spellings/transliterations/dialects interest me ------The food delights me!

I did a paper once, on the different factors which kept China unified over the centuries. The Chinese character was right up there with Confucianism. So my appreciation for the printed 'word' grows. I love the dialects, -- but I have deep respect for the character.

About the food -- the first dish I had from this area was chicken in a bed of deep/fried green leaves. It turned out to be spinach, and what a wonderful flavor experience that was!! From what I've read, the original greens , in the original dish, were from the sweet potato vine, but the spinach was wonderful!

[Gary Soup]

TEOCHIU PEOPLE: www.gaginang.org

Thanks for the gloss and the wonderful link. I too, am very interested in Chinese "dialects" (a language is a dialect with an army, as someone once said, which is why we speak of Romance "languages" but Chinese "dialects).

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the frequent characterization of Chaozhou (Ooops!) cuisine as a "branch" of Cantonese cuisine?

[LittleSuperHero]

If it helps,

you would say : "I am a teochew person"

by saying:

"wo xi dio chu nang" if you spoke teochew

"wo shi chao zhou ren" if you spoke mandarin

although the written language is the same, you'd be surprised at how different the dialects sound. i can still understand hokkien , which is very similar to teochew. but cantonese is almost like another foreign language to me.

what i also find interesting is that Singaporeans and Malaysians speak mandarin with SLIGHTLY different accents, even though the countries are just next to each other. (and both are very small) Singaporeans and Malaysians can tell each other apart, just by the way they speak mandarin.

Singapore had (has?) a speak Mandarin campaign and everyone there assumes that you do speak Mandarin if you look Chinese.

YES. All Chinese children learn Mandarin in school here. (If you are not Chinese you learn another second language). Simplified Chinese characters are used here.

wrt to someone else's question:

Simplified chinese characters are more widely used in:

China

Singapore

Traditional chinese characters :

in HK

Taiwan

I think Malaysia uses a mixture

[Ben Hong]

Speaking of dialects and idioms, has anyone (ABC, CBC, FOB, etc.) ever been called "jook sing"?

[herbacidal]

Speaking of dialects and idioms, has anyone (ABC, CBC, FOB, etc.) ever been called "jook sing"?

hmm, lemme think.

yup, 'bout once a week. used to be everyday.

[Gary Soup]

I stumbled across this page on the website of a travel agency in (of all places) Urumqi. It gives a succinct rundown on local specialties, plus guidance on where to look for them in 53 different cities in China. Any comments or additions?

Muztagh Travel guide to local Chinese Cuisines

For the record (I've posted this link before) an excellent broader survey of more formal Chinese Cusines is located here.

[skchai]

Great site. Wonder how they can know about the cuisine of so many different cities! The "China Pictures" section has photos of many of the same places.

[herbacidal]

Yea, that's great. I know they have some substance when they list cities I don't recognize.

But it's got some good stuff there, definitely.

[tissue]

Has anyone here eaten the Man Han Banquet? I always wanted to try it. I missed the chance 2 years ago when these chefs from HK came to LA. Don't they eat monkey brains, bear paws, and elephant snouts? I wonder how they can get away with cooking that stuff now. Or do they have updated versions? And I dont' want to eat civet, EVER. <shivers>

[Yuki]

Has anyone here eaten the Man Han Banquet? I always wanted to try it. I missed the chance 2 years ago when these chefs from HK came to LA. Don't they eat monkey brains, bear paws, and elephant snouts? I wonder how they can get away with cooking that stuff now. Or do they have updated versions? And I dont' want to eat civet, EVER. <shivers>

It would be hard to get the traditional Man Han Banquet because it would take a couple days just to sample all of the dishes(182 dishes). If you are in China then bear claws, and monkey brains shouldn't be hard to obtain....... not sure about elephant snouts(do they even eat that?). I would assume in the modern version of Man Han Banquet they would not have endangered animals as ingredients. They have updated versions with much less complicated menus.