If you skim fat off soup, is there any fat left over from emulsion (e.g. Ramen)?

[torolover]

For Soups such as Ramen or Seolleongtang, if I refrigerate the soup and scrap off the top layer of fat, is there any fat at all left over in the soup?  I'm only talking about the actual soup, NOT the fat in the noodles or meat.

 

For Ramen and Seoullengtang, you boil the bones for over 12 hours which makes the broth turn milky white.  I read this is because the collagen and bone marrow emulsify into the soup.  

 

If I remove the top layer of fat, is there still bone marrow left in the soup?  Isn't bone marrow mostly fat?

 

I have some Seolleongtang from a restaurant in the fridge, and there is no layer of fat on top. Should I assume this soup has no fat?  It is still milky white.

 

I'm curious from a calorie perspective.

Edited March 24, 2014 by torolover (log)

[Norm Matthews]

Ramen is made with noodles that have been fried.  That is why the cook faster than other kinds of pasta.

[FeChef]

Dont confuse collagen with fat. Collagen converts to gelatin. When i make stock i get 3 layers. top layer is fat, second gelatin, 3rd is sediment.

Edited March 23, 2014 by FeChef (log)

[dcarch]

Ramen is made with noodles that have been fried.  That is why the cook faster than other kinds of pasta.

 

Not always.

 

dcarch

[Norm Matthews]

Not always.

 

dcarch

There are some Ramen noodles that are air dried but the most common (and cheap) kind are deep-fried in oil.  The air dried kind take a little longer to cook.  There is also some fat in the flavor packet.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Norm Matthews (log)

[torolover]

Dont confuse collagen with fat. Collagen converts to gelatin. When i make stock i get 3 layers. top layer is fat, second gelatin, 3rd is sediment.

So does the gelatin layer have any fat?  The soup I have in my fridge doesn't have a "jelly" substance.  The soup is still milky white.  So there is still no fat?

[Edward J]

Yes there is fat.  "Milky white" tells us that it is an emulsion--fat and water blended to gether, like mayonaise.

 

"Boil" is a word that, for me, should only be used for pasta and potatoes, stock should be simmered and never boiled. 

 

When you boil a stock, the fat is mixed into the water, if you simmer, the fat floats to the top, and can be skimmed off.  You can simmer a stock for 24 hours or even longer and not have it "milky white", but once you boil for 15 minutes or longer, you emulisfy the fat into the stock.

 

Hope this helps   

[Mjx]

For Soups such as Ramen or Seolleongtang, if I refrigerate the soup and scrap off the top layer of fat, is there any fat at all left over in the soup?  I'm only talking about the actual soup, NOT the fat in the noodles or meat.

. . . .

 

I'm curious from a calorie perspective.

 

Yes.

 

Unless you're drinking a pondful of the stuff, the number of calories from the residual fat should be relatively insignificant.

[huiray]

Yes there is fat.  "Milky white" tells us that it is an emulsion--fat and water blended to gether, like mayonaise.

 

"Boil" is a word that, for me, should only be used for pasta and potatoes, stock should be simmered and never boiled. 

 

When you boil a stock, the fat is mixed into the water, if you simmer, the fat floats to the top, and can be skimmed off.  You can simmer a stock for 24 hours or even longer and not have it "milky white", but once you boil for 15 minutes or longer, you emulisfy the fat into the stock.

 

Hope this helps   

 

I somehow suspect you may have never made ramen stock or seolleongtang stock, which is what the OP is asking about?  (I might have thought these soups might have been sampled by you when you were living/working in SE Asia?)  Or other E Asian soups?  

 

To make the characteristic milky white stock for Ramen stock or Tonkatsu stock or (Ox) Bone Soup (Seolleongtang) you do indeed BOIL the bones.  One need not do it on full flame or on full/maximum heat, but the cooking of the stock is done at a level much greater than a mere simmer.  You mention disapprovingly the effect of boiling the stock which is that the stock turns milky - but that is PRECISELY the desired effect in making ramen and seolleongtang stocks.  The milkiness would also be due to more than just emulsified fat.

 

See these two articles as two examples for descriptions of the technique:

 

http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/02/how-to-make-tonkotsu-ramen-broth-at-home-recipe.html

http://www.koreanbapsang.com/2013/02/seolleongtang-beef-bone-soup.html#.Uy_ibdGXRr8

 

BTW, what the "Food Lab" author says about blanching the bones to get rid of the blood that discolored his initial stock attempts is a very old technique which is normally used by cooks and chefs both professional and at home in making Chinese/E Asia/SE Asian stocks - a technique called "Fei Sui" (飛水; Yale: fei1 seui2) ("Flying water") in Cantonese.  

 

To the OP: Do have a look at the seriouseats link above - it should answer your questions and then some!  (e.g. purposely add "tenderized" fat into your ramen broth for even more unctuousness) 

Edited March 24, 2014 by huiray (log)

[dcarch]

I am not familiar with the chemistry why and how the stock or soup gets cloudy, but I am doubtful that the mechanics of boiling is causing it.

 

One way to make an emulsion is to use ultrasonic energy. Ultrasound causes very powerful "cavitation" to occur. Basically, cavitation is a lot of tinny bubbles collapsing in the liquid. The energy of the collapsing bubbles creates emulsification.

 

In the case of boiling, the bubbles created are steam bubbles. Those bubbles do not collapse, they shrink instead due to lower than 212F temperature. There is no energy to cause emulsification to happen.

 

Do you get 100% clear stock if you use 100% vegetables, no fat at all?

 

dcarch

Edited March 24, 2014 by dcarch (log)

[huiray]

When I make pork stock using shin bones, neck bones, etc (with some meat still on them and cartilage and fat aplenty) I've done it both ways - at a bare simmer, and at a moderate boil.  The simmered-only one does not turn milky.  The boiled one does.

[torolover]

I somehow suspect you may have never made ramen stock or seolleongtang stock, which is what the OP is asking about?  (I might have thought these soups might have been sampled by you when you were living/working in SE Asia?)  Or other E Asian soups?  

 

To make the characteristic milky white stock for Ramen stock or Tonkatsu stock or (Ox) Bone Soup (Seolleongtang) you do indeed BOIL the bones.  One need not do it on full flame or on full/maximum heat, but the cooking of the stock is done at a level much greater than a mere simmer.  You mention disapprovingly the effect of boiling the stock which is that the stock turns milky - but that is PRECISELY the desired effect in making ramen and seolleongtang stocks.  The milkiness would also be due to more than just emulsified fat.

 

See these two articles as two examples for descriptions of the technique:

 

http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/02/how-to-make-tonkotsu-ramen-broth-at-home-recipe.html

http://www.koreanbapsang.com/2013/02/seolleongtang-beef-bone-soup.html#.Uy_ibdGXRr8

 

BTW, what the "Food Lab" author says about blanching the bones to get rid of the blood that discolored his initial stock attempts is a very old technique which is normally used by cooks and chefs both professional and at home in making Chinese/E Asia/SE Asian stocks - a technique called "Fei Sui" (飛水; Yale: fei1 seui2) ("Flying water") in Cantonese.  

 

To the OP: Do have a look at the seriouseats link above - it should answer your questions and then some!  (e.g. purposely add "tenderized" fat into your ramen broth for even more unctuousness) 

Thanks for the tips! Still confused though!

 

For Seolleongtang they only boil the bones with no skin.  So I assume the only fat in the soup is coming from the bone marrow in the bones?

 

In the Seollongtang recipe they skim off the top layer of fat after it cools in the fridge.  Should I assume their is NO FAT in this milky broth?  According to Serious Eats the milkiness is coming from the gelatin right?  and Gelatin has no fat right?

 

According to Serious Eats my soup should have solidified in the fridge if it was converted to Gelatin.   My soup did NOT solidify in my fridge so should I assume my soup did not convert to gelatin?  

Edited March 24, 2014 by torolover (log)

[dcarch]

When I make pork stock using shin bones, neck bones, etc (with some meat still on them and cartilage and fat aplenty) I've done it both ways - at a bare simmer, and at a moderate boil.  The simmered-only one does not turn milky.  The boiled one does.

 

Is that due to higher temperature chemistry? or the mechanical energy of boiling?

 

I am curious, if you add fat to water, and put the mixture in a blender, will you get a cloudy emulsion that will last?

 

dcarch

[huiray]

Thanks for the tips! Still confused though!

 

For Ramen and Seolleongtang they only boil the bones.  I'm not talking about adding fat in the later stages.  So I assume the only fat in the soup is coming from the bone marrow in the bones?

 

In the Seollongtang recipe they skim off the top layer of fat after it cools in the fridge.  Should I assume their is NO FAT in this milky broth?  According to Serious Eats the milkiness is coming from the gelatin right?  and Gelatin has no fat right?

 

 

Perhaps you might read the seriouseats article again.  Here is what the author said in the second paragraph of the "Bones to Pick" section:

 

With tonkotsu broth, on the other hand, you go one step further. In this case, bones are cooked at a rolling boil for a long, long, long, long period of time. Not only does all the same dissolving and gelatin creation take place, but you also end up breaking down other matter—fat, marrow, calcium, various other minerals and proteins—into tiny tiny pieces which get suspended in the liquid, turning it opaque.

 

 

As for the "adding more fat in" thing, that falls under what I said was "..and then some!" for you - re-read the "Back to Fat" section in the seriouseats article again.

 

The author proposes a theory of the gelatin trapping the fine particulates (and, I would say, some of the fat as well, if the theory holds) to give the milky stock.

 

In the absence of an actual full chemical analysis of the milky stock I would assume that there is at least some fat remaining in it.  If you are concerned about consuming any fat at all then you might consider that the "safe" thing to do would be to throw out that leftover seolleongtang soup? 

 

Does anyone have a citation or two for actual chemical analyses of said milky stocks?

[huiray]

Is that due to higher temperature chemistry? or the mechanical energy of boiling?

 

I am curious, if you add fat to water, and put the mixture in a blender, will you get a cloudy emulsion that will last?

 

dcarch

 

I don't know, but your suggestions sound plausible on the face of it. 

 

I would suspect that making a vinaigrette might be similar to the "adding fat to water and putting the mixture in a blender" scenario?

 

ETA: Presumably when the stock is being boiled there would also be a higher rate of denaturation of the proteins and also a greater mechanical dispersion of the denatured (particulate) proteins, amongst whatever else is entering the stock, and that would then get suspended in the soup, "aided/trapped" by the gelatin (according to the seriouseats author's theory)?  As for this theory, it seems to me to have some merit - gelatin *is* used as an emulsifier (amongst other things) in both food and other situations - e.g. in photography to form the silver halide suspension on film.  In a related sense, polymers like PVP (polyvinylpyrrolidone), are used to aid in the formation of stable dispersions/suspensions of things like very fine latex particles...

[Gelatin is a heterogenous mixture of polypeptides all containing a significant proportion of proline (see, e.g., this reference amongst any number of others) and hydroxyproline residues; PVP is comprised of repeating units of what essentially resembles the cyclic moiety of proline (see, e.g., the Wiki article as a convenient jumping-off point)]

Edited March 24, 2014 by huiray (log)

[torolover]

Perhaps you might read the seriouseats article again.  Here is what the author said in the second paragraph of the "Bones to Pick" section:

 

 

As for the "adding more fat in" thing, that falls under what I said was "..and then some!" for you - re-read the "Back to Fat" section in the seriouseats article again.

 

The author proposes a theory of the gelatin trapping the fine particulates (and, I would say, some of the fat as well, if the theory holds) to give the milky stock.

 

In the absence of an actual full chemical analysis of the milky stock I would assume that there is at least some fat remaining in it.  If you are concerned about consuming any fat at all then you might consider that the "safe" thing to do would be to throw out that leftover seolleongtang soup? 

 

Does anyone have a citation or two for actual chemical analyses of said milky stocks?

Very interesting!  According to the Serious Eats article,  at the 2 hour boiling mark he writes "No opaque milkiness yet, implying that very few minerals or fats are emulsified into the liquid."  The picture shows it hasn't turned solid yet.

 

My soup hasn't turned solid yet, so should I assume very few minerals and fats are emulsified into the liquid?  Then why is my soup milky white, but still liquid?

 

[rotuts]

I suspect the cloudy version H is talking about might be an emulsion.  but i doubt its just pure fat and water.  that would separate.  his clearly doesnt

 

the way to tell would be to place the cloudy fluid in an ultra centrifuge and and 'fuge away.

 

send a sample to the folks a M.C.   but their U.C. is waiting for work.

[huiray]

 

My soup hasn't turned solid yet, so should I assume very few minerals and fats are emulsified into the liquid?  Then why is my soup milky white, but still liquid?

 

 

Perhaps because your soup is still in the pot and is still boiling? :-)  The stock (with the gelatin in it) needs to be cooled down for it to solidify.  The seriouseats author *said* he chilled the samples of the stock he took out - re-read the first sentence in the "A Matter of Time" section which you seem to have looked at:

 

Next, I cooked a batch the traditional way—on the stovetop in a regular Dutch oven, pulling out ladlefuls of broth at thirty minute intervals and chilling them in the fridge (to get a better gauge of the broth's progress).

 

ETA:  Ah, I see you edited your previous post to state you chilled (a portion?) of your soup/stock but did not get it to gel.  Perhaps you haven't got enough gelatin in yet or maybe you have a lot of water? (a greatly diluted solution of gelatin will not gel - just like jello won't solidify if it is too dilute) Also: when making Tonkatsu stock one does indeed use a lot of bones and minimal water, precisely because one wants to get that heavy, very unctuous, concentrated gelatin stock.  The seriouseats author also used largely pig trotters which contain a LOT of gelatin collagen, and did his stock-making in a relatively small volume of water - look at this photo in his article: http://www.seriouseats.com/images/20120227-tonkotsu-ramen-broth-pork-fat-02.jpg

Edited March 24, 2014 by huiray (log)

[torolover]

Perhaps because your soup is still in the pot and is still boiling? :-)  The stock (with the gelatin in it) needs to be cooled down for it to solidify.  The seriouseats author *said* he chilled the samples of the stock he took out - re-read the first sentence in the "A Matter of Time" section which you clearly looked over:

No my soup is in the fridge.  It is cold, still milky white, has no fat on top, and still liquid.

 

So why is it white if it's not from gelatin?  Your Seolungtang Recipe also suggest skimming the fat part after the soup is cooled in the fridge.  Now I'm more confused...

[huiray]

The "whiteness" is NOT from gelatin itself.  It is due to the other stuff and fine particulates that get carried into the soup.  Gelatin itself will be "clear"/colorless in water.  I don't believe I see a comment about gelatin by itself causing the milkiness in the stocks in the seriouseats article.  Think of Jell-O ... which is gelatin-based: One gets clear gelled desserts, yes?

 

I also edited my previous comment, just before I saw this last post of yours - have a look, if you wish.

 

There WILL be a layer of fat in tonkatsu ramen stocks after preparing it, assuming there was appreciable fat on the bones to start with (which should be the kind of bones used) and one DOES skim off all or part of it as one wishes.  My pork stocks show this, whether I made them in the "milky form" or as the "relatively clear form".  Seolleongtang stock/soup may or may not form a thick fat layer, depending on the type of bones being used and how much fatty tissue there is on the bones - see below.  Seolleongtang soup also uses BEEF or oxtail bones, which generally have much less fat than pork bones used for ramen stock, although when I make my Phở stock from relatively fat-free (but not absent) beef bones I have always got a fair bit of fat on top. 

 

Remember that seolleongtang stock/soup and tonkatsu ramen/pork stock/soup have milkiness in common, but are not identical soups.  You asked about/cited ramen soups, in addition to the seolleongtang soup you had, in your original post - hence the reason for the inclusion of pork/ramen stocks/soups in my posts.

 

One aspect of the preceding discussions was about how much fat was trapped as a suspension/dispersion in the milky broth, in addition to other particulates or finely dispersed large molecules which serve to refract light (making it appear milky).  Is your "soup in the fridge" something you are making yourself; or is it the same "leftover seolleongtang soup" from the restaurant you talked about in your original post?  If the latter, the folks at the restaurant must have already skimmed off the fat, and also seolleongtang soup is usually made more dilute than the stock/soup for Tonkatsu ramen - see my added comments in my previous post.  If it is soup you are making yourself, was there sufficient fat on your bones to generate an appreciable amount of rendered fat?  How much collagen and connective tissue is there?  What sort of bones are they?  Big shin bones stripped of the "caps" and connective tissue (including the caps between bones) and tendons and also stripped of all fatty tissue around and on the bones will not give you either enough fat or gelatin to form the sort of stock being discussed here.  Marrow alone will not render enough fat to give a thick layer (or even any continuous layer) of fat on top, unless you used a lot of fat-layer-free bones with lots and lots of marrow, and the marrow has to be the fatty kind, not the blood-cell-producing kind.

Edited March 24, 2014 by huiray (log)

[Edward J]

Is that due to higher temperature chemistry? or the mechanical energy of boiling?

 

I am curious, if you add fat to water, and put the mixture in a blender, will you get a cloudy emulsion that will last?

 

dcarch

 

If you refrigerate it immediately afterwards, it will.     

 

 

You can also get a milky or cloudy stock with just vegetables if you allow it to boil, as there are natural starches and fiber from vegetables that will bind the stock.

[torolover]

The "whiteness" is NOT from gelatin itself.  It is due to the other stuff and fine particulates that get carried into the soup.  Gelatin itself will be "clear"/colorless in water.  I don't believe I see a comment about gelatin by itself causing the milkiness in the stocks in the seriouseats article.  Think of Jell-O ... which is gelatin-based: One gets clear gelled desserts, yes?

 

I also edited my previous comment, just before I saw this last post of yours - have a look, if you wish.

 

There WILL be a layer of fat in tonkatsu ramen stocks after preparing it, assuming there was appreciable fat on the bones to start with (which should be the kind of bones used) and one DOES skim off all or part of it as one wishes.  My pork stocks show this, whether I made them in the "milky form" or as the "relatively clear form".  Seolleongtang stock/soup may or may not form a thick fat layer, depending on the type of bones being used and how much fatty tissue there is on the bones - see below.  Seolleongtang soup also uses BEEF or oxtail bones, which generally have much less fat than pork bones used for ramen stock, although when I make my Phở stock from relatively fat-free (but not absent) beef bones I have always got a fair bit of fat on top. 

 

Remember that seolleongtang stock/soup and tonkatsu ramen/pork stock/soup have milkiness in common, but are not identical soups.  You asked about/cited ramen soups, in addition to the seolleongtang soup you had, in your original post - hence the reason for the inclusion of pork/ramen stocks/soups in my posts.

 

One aspect of the preceding discussions was about how much fat was trapped as a suspension/dispersion in the milky broth, in addition to other particulates or finely dispersed large molecules which serve to refract light (making it appear milky).  Is your "soup in the fridge" something you are making yourself; or is it the same "leftover seolleongtang soup" from the restaurant you talked about in your original post?  If the latter, the folks at the restaurant must have already skimmed off the fat, and also seolleongtang soup is usually made more dilute than the stock/soup for Tonkatsu ramen - see my added comments in my previous post.  If it is soup you are making yourself, was there sufficient fat on your bones to generate an appreciable amount of rendered fat?  How much collagen and connective tissue is there?  What sort of bones are they?  Big shin bones stripped of the "caps" and connective tissue (including the caps between bones) and tendons and also stripped of all fatty tissue around and on the bones will not give you either enough fat or gelatin to form the sort of stock being discussed here.  Marrow alone will not render enough fat to give a thick layer (or even any continuous layer) of fat on top, unless you used a lot of fat-layer-free bones with lots and lots of marrow, and the marrow has to be the fatty kind, not the blood-cell-producing kind.

Very interesting tips!  Thanks Huiray!  Do you have a good ramen recipe or Tonkontsu recipe?  I will try the Serious eats ramen recipe soon!

[Edward J]

This is an interesting thread!

 

The Chinese technique of blanching bones first has been adopted by the French and is pounded into the brains of every cook's apprentice for the last two centuries.....

 

The gospel according to the French (and the Swiss as well) for this technique is as follows:

 

When you blanch bones, you will get a scum forming.  The older the bones are, the more scum you will get. Remove the scum in as large pieces as possible, because once it breaks up it is virtually impossible to filter out. The scum forms as the stock comes to a boil, once it comes to a rolling boil, the scum cake will break up.   The scum is dead protein.  It contributes nothing in terms of flavour or nutritional value, but it does impart a certain grittiness.

 

If you have bones that have no gelitanous matter to them (i.e.  rib bones) a fairly common trick is to toss in wing tips from chicken or turkey, or better yet a split and blanched pig's trotter or calf's foot into the stock.  Split pig feet are dirt cheap in virtually every Asian supermarket, but wing tips are at a premium (Beer n'wing pub food...).

[huiray]

Quite a few of the comments on the seriouseats article also talk about how they "followed his instructions" and (yet) SIMMERED their stocks, as they had been trained to do (in the French manner) then wondered why they weren't getting the thickened/milky stocks he described.  The author had to gently point out that they needed to BOIL their bones, and that simmering their bones was NOT what was needed.

[torolover]

The "whiteness" is NOT from gelatin itself.  It is due to the other stuff and fine particulates that get carried into the soup.  Gelatin itself will be "clear"/colorless in water.  I don't believe I see a comment about gelatin by itself causing the milkiness in the stocks in the seriouseats article.  Think of Jell-O ... which is gelatin-based: One gets clear gelled desserts, yes?

 

I also edited my previous comment, just before I saw this last post of yours - have a look, if you wish.

 

There WILL be a layer of fat in tonkatsu ramen stocks after preparing it, assuming there was appreciable fat on the bones to start with (which should be the kind of bones used) and one DOES skim off all or part of it as one wishes.  My pork stocks show this, whether I made them in the "milky form" or as the "relatively clear form".  Seolleongtang stock/soup may or may not form a thick fat layer, depending on the type of bones being used and how much fatty tissue there is on the bones - see below.  Seolleongtang soup also uses BEEF or oxtail bones, which generally have much less fat than pork bones used for ramen stock, although when I make my Phở stock from relatively fat-free (but not absent) beef bones I have always got a fair bit of fat on top. 

 

Remember that seolleongtang stock/soup and tonkatsu ramen/pork stock/soup have milkiness in common, but are not identical soups.  You asked about/cited ramen soups, in addition to the seolleongtang soup you had, in your original post - hence the reason for the inclusion of pork/ramen stocks/soups in my posts.

 

One aspect of the preceding discussions was about how much fat was trapped as a suspension/dispersion in the milky broth, in addition to other particulates or finely dispersed large molecules which serve to refract light (making it appear milky).  Is your "soup in the fridge" something you are making yourself; or is it the same "leftover seolleongtang soup" from the restaurant you talked about in your original post?  If the latter, the folks at the restaurant must have already skimmed off the fat, and also seolleongtang soup is usually made more dilute than the stock/soup for Tonkatsu ramen - see my added comments in my previous post.  If it is soup you are making yourself, was there sufficient fat on your bones to generate an appreciable amount of rendered fat?  How much collagen and connective tissue is there?  What sort of bones are they?  Big shin bones stripped of the "caps" and connective tissue (including the caps between bones) and tendons and also stripped of all fatty tissue around and on the bones will not give you either enough fat or gelatin to form the sort of stock being discussed here.  Marrow alone will not render enough fat to give a thick layer (or even any continuous layer) of fat on top, unless you used a lot of fat-layer-free bones with lots and lots of marrow, and the marrow has to be the fatty kind, not the blood-cell-producing kind.

Huiray,

 

I'm currently making Serious Eats Tokotsu Ramen.  I put the stock in the fridge, waited for the fat to harden, and then scooped it all off.  The rest of the stock is jello like.

 

If I reheat 1 cup of stock, and add 3 Tablespoons of fatback, is it safe to assume I only have about 3 tablespoons of fat in my soup?  Or could half of my stock still be fat because it's still in the emulsion. 

 

I'm looking at it from a calorie perspective.  If indeed there are only 3 tablespoons of fat in my soup, that's not bad at all.  Even if I drink 2 cups of soup that's only 6 Tablespoons of fat.  On the other hand If I know half or more of my soup is fat, then I have to adjust how much and how often I can drink it.

 

Thanks!

 

Thanks!