Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 2)

[350degrees]

if it smells too sour before using it, it means the starter has matured. as per the tartine bread book (fantastic book, btw), you want to make sure the starter smells sweet and a little pungent like ever-so-slightly rotten fruit and not pungent like sour vinegar; additionally, you want to see it float in water before you use it.

what i might recommend is that you take some of the dough and use that as a new starter. seeing as how you've added more flour and water to it, it should be a ripe, young starter which you could make a new batch from, given that it isn't completely dead from the heat.

i imagine you should still be able to use the leftover dough for uses where you don't need a lot of air and rise in the final product - maybe a pizza, or some flatbread.

Edited October 11, 2011 by 350degrees (log)

[HungryC]

If the starter was only 4 days old, then it was likely far too weak to raise a loaf of bread. Just because a starter is bubbly doesn't mean it has a sufficient yeast population to raise bread. I'd keep feeding that starter daily for at least two weeks before trying again. In my experience, the initial bubbling within 2-4 days is NOT yeast, but leuconostoc or other bacteria that mimic yeast's bubbling. When the starter reliably doubles in size within 4-6 hours after feeding, you know it's sufficiently active to raise a loaf of bread.

[piracer]

So when it comes to feeding my starter, can i just add small amounts of my dough into it? Do i need to add any water, or put it this way, what should the starter look like? Right now its kinda pasty, i dont think its too watery. The dough i have feels quite wet so i feel like i dont need to add water. Then again, if i just add chunks of dough into the bowl, will it eventually break down or does it need some extra force be it physical or chemical?

thanks

[Isabelle Prescott]

So when it comes to feeding my starter, can i just add small amounts of my dough into it? Do i need to add any water, or put it this way, what should the starter look like? Right now its kinda pasty, i dont think its too watery.

My starter has the consistancy of pancake batter. I feed it with 1 cup of flour mixed into 1 cup of bottled water. Since I bake bread at least once a week, I take out 1 cup of the starter as the leaveneing for my bread and replace it with the flour/water mixture. I created my original batch of starter using the Nancy Silverton of La Brea Bakery method which consists of flour, water and organic grapes. It took at least 3-4 weeks for it to be strong enough to be used to bake bread. (I fed it about once every 5 days during that time.) I tried sooner and each time the loaves didn't rise enough. I was getting discouraged but persistance paid off. I have been baking with this starter for about 3 or 4 years, maybe longer.

There are pictures of some of my breads on my blog. Some are sourdough and some are other types of bread.

[HungryC]

So when it comes to feeding my starter, can i just add small amounts of my dough into it? Do i need to add any water, or put it this way, what should the starter look like? Right now its kinda pasty, i dont think its too watery. The dough i have feels quite wet so i feel like i dont need to add water. Then again, if i just add chunks of dough into the bowl, will it eventually break down or does it need some extra force be it physical or chemical?

thanks

No, don't add dough. Add flour and water; stir to ensure all of the flour is hydrated, then leave it at room temperature for 24 hours. Discard a portion of it, and feed it (just flour and wter) again. Keep it on a daily feeding schedule until it will reliably double at room temperature in 4-8 hours. Wiping down the sides of the container each time you discard/feed will allow you to "see" that it has doubled...you can feed it bread flour, all purpose flour, or even whole wheat or rye (or a mixture, if that's what you like).

Once it is reliably doubling, you can reduce the feeding schedule, provided that you refrigerate the starter. I keep my 100% hydration starter in the fridge, and I feed it two or three times before I plan to bake. It survives happily for weeks without feeding. I have neglected it for as long as 3 months (I was able to revive it) and I inadvertently gave most of it away a few weeks ago. I had just smears of it left clinging to the container, but I fed it anyway and the culture was still around. After 2 feedings, it was a big happy bowlful again.

When feeding it, try to feed it equal parts by weight of flour and water (which makes it 100% hydration). Various recipes call for starters of varying hydrations, and converting it to the percentage you need is simple if you start with 100% hydration starter.

[charalito]

Resurrecting this lovely thread

I haven't baked in over 5 years. A sin! My father wanted sourdough quick, so I experimented with Professor Calvel's starter, with some modifications. I only did half the recommended amounts and since I didn't have malt extract available, used malted milk, 2 gr instead of the 1.5 gr it called for.

Followed the schedule given for that starter, but the 2nd 7hr feeding wasn't very succesful (suspect my father had too much nicotine on his hands), so I left the starter out without food for 6 more hours, than resumed the schedule once things got bubbly again.

A miracle! We got a pretty decent starter after only 3 days (instead of the weeks it took my all natural flour/water). Fed it equal parts in weight of flour and water to try to reach 100% hydration, since the original mixture was way dough-y. Tested the starter with some Sourdough English Muffins and it was ready for use.

I followed jackal10's method, converting the amounts to grams, as follows:

Prefement:

200 gr sourdough starter

150 gr white all purpose flour (only had regular 10% flour, so that's the one I used)

225 gr water

Left for 5 hours on the counter.

Dough:

200 gr refreshed sourdough starter

450 gr white all purpose flour (again, regular 10% flour)

225 gr water

9 gr salt (added later)

I roughly mixed the ingredients and left for 15 minutes, then came back and kneaded by hand for 5 minutes. Left for amylisation 30 minutes and then added salt. Kneaded for another 10 minutes. Rested the dough for an hour, then gently folded using Dan Lepard's technique. Repeated the folding operation every hour 3 more times. Shaped the dough into a ball and put it in my makeshift banetton (wicker basket covered with cotton cloth, rubbed generously with rice flour). Left the shaped dough 40 minutes at room temperature, then put it in the fridge to retard overnight (11 hours)

The next morning I preheated the oven to 250 C for one hour. Put some brick tiles in the middle of the oven and a tray in the bottom.

Took the dough out of the fridge and put the dough in the floured peel (rice flour) and slashed it badly. Need more practice in the slashing department:

Turned down the heat to 230C and slid the dough into the stones with a little too much force (expected it to stick a bit but it didn't), then fiddled with it to try to put it properly on the stones, elongated the shape doing this

Put 3 icecubes in the tray at the bottom and set the timer for 48 minutes. Got a lovely boule with a crisp crust

Sliced the bread after a 3 hour wait. Yum!

Crumb holes are ok-ish for a 10% protein flour I guess, but I want a better, bigger-hole crumb. Just got my hands on 12% flour, so next time I will be using that. Flavor is really good for a young starter, I expect it to become more complex with time.

What other tips and tricks do you recommend?

Thanks so much for your feedback!

[teapot]

If you're looking for a more open crumb, I would suggest increading your hydration. From the formula you posted, it looks like a 59 percent hydration. I would go about 70 percent. I am also wondering how long you proofed your boule after taking it out of the fridge and baking it?

Good luck with your efforts!

[piracer]

So I've been making my sourdough loaf for the last year or so pretty confidently without trouble.

I brought it back to Singapore, fed my starter, and made a loaf. After the final rise with stretch and fold technique, i noticed it loss all structure, meaning it looked as if no gluten was developed at all.

The biggest change is temperature - i cant imagine the local bread flour here is really so different and bakers here can still make bread.

My theory is that because its so hot here (around 30-33C) as ambient temp, the yeast got far too active, produced so much lactic acid that the pH of the entire bread was so high that it denatured the gluten proteins.

Can anyone verify this might be correct?

[keychris]

did it taste particularly sour? or did you not taste it at all?

What is more likely has happened is you've had high enzyme activity, specifically proteases, which chop up proteins into little pieces - too much of this activity and you can kiss gluten goodbye! I've had that happen in sourdough I've retarded in the fridge for three days - the dough went sticky, smelled a little odd and didn't bake well at all!

Keep refreshing the starter and try again, would be my advice -

oh, and a little aside... acid is low pH, not high! But I totally understood what you meant anyway

[piracer]

Opps, why did i write high pH...

Yeah, so I think the same thing happened when i let my sourdough once autolyse for over 16 hours out at room temperature. I remembering noticing there was no gluten development.

I added a ton of flour to the dough until it was workable - i kinda forced it and then just baked it.

There was some structure, but it was noticeably flatter than normal. I havent been able to taste it yet though, ill do so soon and report back

[Catherine Iino]

One other thing to consider: the water you are now using. Is it chlorinated? I've had experiences similar to yours and got things back to normal by switching to spring or well water.

[Syzygies]

The Bread Builders: Hearth Loaves and Masonry Ovens

This is an amazing book on natural starters and building your own oven. They discuss the differences between all-purpose flours within the United States (in the South it's for biscuits), and worldwide. I'm guessing the flour.

[ambra]

The power went out at my house while I was on vacation and, setting aside the hundreds of dollars in frozen meats, sauces etc that I had to throw out, what about my starter? It was sitting in a lukewarm fridge for about 5 days....is it even worth trying to revive? Or should I just toss the whole thing in favor of a new one?

Thanks!

Edited July 26, 2013 by ambra (log)

[cmflick]

The power went out at my house while I was on vacation and, setting aside the hundreds of dollars in frozen meats, sauces etc that I had to throw out, what about my starter? It was sitting in a lukewarm fridge for about 5 days....is it even worth trying to revive? Or should I just toss the whole thing in favor of a new one?

Thanks!

I've had the power go out for 6 days twice over the last 2 years and my sourdough starter has been fine after sitting at room temperature during the power outage. I just fed the starter regularly for a couple of days then returned it to the refrigerator.

[ambra]

Thanks, I will give it a try then.