When is it permissible to not tip?

[Jaymes]

I am saying thank god I cannot see myself being in America in the near future, so I will not be faced with a conundrum where I receive poor service but still feel obligated to tip.

Should you find yourself in receipt of an opportunity to visit the US, please don't let this stop you.

Rest assured that there are a great many Americans that, when they "receive poor service," absolutely do not "still feel obligated to tip."

[Jenni]

Should you find yourself in receipt of an opportunity to visit the US, please don't let this stop you.

I won't, though I admit that it makes me a little nervous about getting it all right (but meals are cheaper than in the UK, correct? Though not as cheap as where I am now obviously ). As mentioned above, main limitations to a visit are cost...and fear of the airport security!

[Edward J]

When I was a teenager, I waited tables after school and on the weekends at a rather large chain of diners that is no longer in business. I can't describe the absolute dread that would come over the waitstaff and the cooks when large tour busses of Canadians would pull up. They were bossy, demanding, condescending and DID NOT TIP. Now, this was 35+ years ago. Surely there has been sufficient time for our neighbors to the north to learn our customs since then.

Katie and others have done a very good job of explaining the tipping system in the US. It's one of our customs and shouldn't be something to make a federal case out of as a visitor to our country. Just add on 20% and call it good.

Is that the best you can do? C'mon, really?

You've got employers thumbing thir noses at labour standards and paying below minimum wages, in some States waitrons can and do call the Police because customers don't tip, and save for a few infrastructure requirements, there are no standards at ALL in the hospitality industry, and you can't admit that there might be a teensy probem with current tipping practices and social custom?

Maybe if we all close our eyes and squueze them tightly the whole problem will dissapear--like the metric system, eh?

I'm a "lifer" in the hosptiality industry. I fight for what I think is right, and the current tipping system is not right.

[ScoopKW]

When I was a teenager, I waited tables after school and on the weekends at a rather large chain of diners that is no longer in business. I can't describe the absolute dread that would come over the waitstaff and the cooks when large tour busses of Canadians would pull up. They were bossy, demanding, condescending and DID NOT TIP. Now, this was 35+ years ago. Surely there has been sufficient time for our neighbors to the north to learn our customs since then.

Katie and others have done a very good job of explaining the tipping system in the US. It's one of our customs and shouldn't be something to make a federal case out of as a visitor to our country. Just add on 20% and call it good.

No, they haven't changed.

I have heard this joke in every restaurant and brewpub where I worked:

What's the difference between a Canuck and a Canoe?

You can get a canoe to tip.

[ScoopKW]

When I was a teenager, I waited tables after school and on the weekends at a rather large chain of diners that is no longer in business. I can't describe the absolute dread that would come over the waitstaff and the cooks when large tour busses of Canadians would pull up. They were bossy, demanding, condescending and DID NOT TIP. Now, this was 35+ years ago. Surely there has been sufficient time for our neighbors to the north to learn our customs since then.

Katie and others have done a very good job of explaining the tipping system in the US. It's one of our customs and shouldn't be something to make a federal case out of as a visitor to our country. Just add on 20% and call it good.

Is that the best you can do? C'mon, really?

You've got employers thumbing thir noses at labour standards and paying below minimum wages, in some States waitrons can and do call the Police because customers don't tip, and save for a few infrastructure requirements, there are no standards at ALL in the hospitality industry, and you can't admit that there might be a teensy probem with current tipping practices and social custom?

Maybe if we all close our eyes and squueze them tightly the whole problem will dissapear--like the metric system, eh?

I'm a "lifer" in the hosptiality industry. I fight for what I think is right, and the current tipping system is not right.

I think there's a HUGE problem with the current system. But that doesn't give me license to cheat someone out of their income, just because I don't agree with the system.

I also think our healthcare system is screwed up beyond recognition. That doesn't mean I stiff the dentist's office out of a co-pay when I get my teeth cleaned.

[annabelle]

I think our system of taxation is whack. It doesn't mean I don't have to pony up.

Edited October 22, 2011 by annabelle (log)

[ScoopKW]

There is the issue of fairness and equity in travel. When we travel, my wife often has to wear uncomfortable clothes or otherwise "cover up" to a degree we find ridiculous. In some countries, shorts even on men are considered rude. So I don't wear them when I visit those countries. I don't know how many times we've had to purchase a hat of some kind to enter a place of worship as to not completely offend everyone inside. We do all of this -- and we do our absolute best to learn the customs BEFORE we travel.

Our custom is tipping servers and bartenders 15-20%. I don't particularly like that custom. I actually prefer the European way. But there is absolute zero chance of waiters and busers and bartenders ever making a living wage without tips in this country. I can't think of a single restaurant in the entire country that pays their staff a living wage and adjusts menu prices accordingly. (If one exists, please let me know about it.)

So I find it particularly irksome that Mrs. Scoop and I try to learn and follow foreign customs when we travel to their countries, yet they feel no compunction whatsoever ignoring our tip custom when visiting the United States.

I may be more vocal about it than most, but I've also lived in tourist towns for most of my life. I've seen how servers and bartenders are treated by visitors, and it does not sit right with me.

[Mjx]

I think our system of taxation is whack. It doesn't mean I don't have to pony up.

But the question originally raised wasn't about the tipping system as such (that was taken as a given), but what a waiter has to do or not do, to merit being undertipped, or not tipped at all.

Just showing up isn't enough, any more than it is with any other job.

It's a tough job, and I think it's reasonable to cut slack, but if the waiter is rude or negligent, he or she is not doing his or her job, and it's reasonable for the tip (or lack thereof) to reflect this. Some people would add 'incompetence' to the list of tipping offenses, but that's arguable (I come down on the lenient side of that).

And... that's pretty much the gist of it, right?

There are heaps of corollary/collateral arguments, and they've been raised, here, but they really seem like entirely different topics.

[ScoopKW]

I don't see how foreign visitors who think it is always 100% permissible to not tip isn't relevant to the discussion.

EDIT -- I mean, that's the topic title, after all. Maybe this thread will convince just ONE visitor that we're not trying to pull the wool over their eyes. That our servers really DO make $2.33 an hour. And they need to be tipped to make a living. Most of us DON'T like that system. But that's how it is. Kind of like our screwed up healthcare and tax systems.

Edited October 22, 2011 by ScoopKW (log)

[Mjx]

I don't see how foreign visitors who think it is always 100% permissible to not tip isn't relevant to the discussion.

EDIT -- I mean, that's the topic title, after all. Maybe this thread will convince just ONE visitor that we're not trying to pull the wool over their eyes. That our servers really DO make $2.33 an hour. And they need to be tipped to make a living. Most of us DON'T like that system. But that's how it is. Kind of like our screwed up healthcare and tax systems.

Well... because even if the generalizations were mostly true, that would be an example of what's not an acceptable reason to not tip?

I'm finding it troubling that so many of the generalizations about foreigners in the US seem to be based on hearsay, not direct experience. In the time I waited tables, I was stiffed by Americans exclusively (it was the sort of town that is not exactly featured in travel guides), but there is just no way that I'd draw conclusions about American tipping behaviour from that.

I've never been in the company of foreigners who failed to tip generously, but I know that this was often at least partly because I impressed upon them the importance of their tip to the waiter's earnings, and know that there are visiting foreigners who don't tip, for a variety of reasons. But dismissing foreigners as as a group of thoughtless non-tippers doesn't seem particularly reasonable or accurate.

Every nation produces its share of thoughtful and appalling travellers, so why slag off one group, and hold up another as models of good behaviour?

People remember the extremes, whether it's 'That group of inconsiderate boors/cheap bastards from [pick anyplace on this planet], who got $800 worth of food and tipped nothing', or 'That group from [pick anyplace on this planet] who tipped 25% and came back twice more, and did it again.'

ETA: The OP question was, What are reasonable grounds for not tipping? No one involved in this discussion has suggested that not being a US citizen is an acceptable reason for not tipping, although it does explain why some visitors to the US might not think to tip, and educating people about this practice is important. Anyone who's ever tried to explain US tipping, however, is probably familiar with the incredulity/bewilderment that accompany trying to wrap one's head around the persistence of a practice (in the US) that would be condemned in a third-world country as disturbingly exploitive.

[ScoopKW]

I'm finding it troubling that so many of the generalizations about foreigners in the US seem to be based on hearsay, not direct experience.

I assure you that my particular generalizations are based on direct experience or observation. I have lived in tourist towns for most of my life. I have spent most of my life in restaurants. I also speak a few languages, and am often called upon for translation.

I'm here to say that the majority of foreign visitors to the Florida Keys and Las Vegas do not tip, or they do not tip nearly enough. (Five dollars on a $400 meal, for instance.) They do not seem to care about our customs. And not only are they ignorant about this custom, they are WILLFULLY ignorant. Nothing is going to convince them that we tip our servers and bartenders here. NOTHING.

Do we have American tightwads who make up any excuse whatsoever to avoid tipping? Sure. Every country has their share of inconsiderate tightwads. But it is my direct, first-hand personal experience that 15% of Americans are bad tippers, and 15% of Europeans are good tippers. And every server in every tourist town in America will back me up on this.

[ScoopKW]

Is that the best you can do? C'mon, really?

You've got employers thumbing thir noses at labour standards and paying below minimum wages, in some States waitrons can and do call the Police because customers don't tip, and save for a few infrastructure requirements, there are no standards at ALL in the hospitality industry, and you can't admit that there might be a teensy probem with current tipping practices and social custom?

Maybe if we all close our eyes and squueze them tightly the whole problem will dissapear--like the metric system, eh?

I'm a "lifer" in the hosptiality industry. I fight for what I think is right, and the current tipping system is not right.

You've mentioned in another thread you give your cooks knives to use in your kitchens. What are you paying your servers? Do you make it clear on the menu that they're paid a living wage and do not require tips?

[Edward J]

I have heard this joke in every restaurant and brewpub where I worked:

What's the difference between a Canuck and a Canoe?

You can get a canoe to tip.

Congratulations, you've just stereotyped an entire nation.

No, I won't return the favour. As it is, this thread is dangerously clsoe to be locked,and that is not my intention.

If you go back to the firt post, by the orginal poster, you will find he asks the question, "When is it permissble not to tip?". As a self described "food writer" he was upset by being seated under a noisy airconditioner and felt he didn't have to tip.

Go back to that post and find out what country and what city he is from.

If I can't get anyone to acknowledge that the current tippig system is lousy, how can you educate the O.P. to tip?

[ScoopKW]

I have heard this joke in every restaurant and brewpub where I worked:

What's the difference between a Canuck and a Canoe?

You can get a canoe to tip.

Congratulations, you've just stereotyped an entire nation.

No, I won't return the favour. As it is, this thread is dangerously clsoe to be locked,and that is not my intention.

If you go back to the firt post, by the orginal poster, you will find he asks the question, "When is it permissble not to tip?". As a self described "food writer" he was upset by being seated under a noisy airconditioner and felt he didn't have to tip.

Go back to that post and find out what country and what city he is from.

If I can't get anyone to acknowledge that the current tippig system is lousy, how can you educate the O.P. to tip?

I didn't say I agreed with the joke. Only that I've heard it in every tourist town bar and restaurant I've worked in for the last quarter century or so.

And I have acknowledged that I think the current system is ridiculous. But how does that excuse people from cheating their server and bartender out of deserved income?

And, I'll ask again, what do you pay your servers? You've said you have several kitchens. So I'm assuming you have servers. If you do, what are they making an hour? I'd like to know.

[annabelle]

What are you paying your servers? Do you make it clear on the menu that they're paid a living wage and do not require tips?

You mean those "waitrons?"

The fact of the matter is that the US is one huge and diverse country. I sometimes think that persons who do not live here assume that there is are over-arching wage laws in all fifty states for all types of work. That all states are subject to Union labor practices and are not "right to work" states wherein one need not join a union to get a job. Right to work doesn't mean that the laborer is getting shafted by their employer, either. As a server, the labor unions (many moons ago when I waited tables) didn't guarantee a higher wage or better hours, either.

To the original title of this thread, there have been a number of anecdotes from posters that have delineated the times that they refused to tip and I agree with every circumstance. Not tipping because you are a special snowflake who doesn't "believe" in tipping is not an acceptable excuse. It is just that: an excuse and not a reason.

[Mjx]

. . . . But it is my direct, first-hand personal experience that 15% of Americans are bad tippers, and 15% of Europeans are good tippers. And every server in every tourist town in America will back me up on this.

Show me some stats that even begin to support this.

My experience – and I too travel a lot (and speak several languages, and make part of my living doing translation), have waited tables, and know plenty of people who have waited tables/still do – just doesn't support this. Difference is, I know that any one person's experience, even if it includes lots of other people's war stories, is not enough to base this sort of conclusion on. Perhaps NYC doesn't count as a tourist city?

But I think I'll stop here: like pretty much else in this thread at this point, I'm just repeating myself, and frankly, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

[ScoopKW]

. . . . But it is my direct, first-hand personal experience that 15% of Americans are bad tippers, and 15% of Europeans are good tippers. And every server in every tourist town in America will back me up on this.

Show me some stats that even begin to support this.

My experience – and I too travel a lot (and speak several languages, and make part of my living doing translation), have waited tables, and know plenty of people who have waited tables/still do – just doesn't support this. Difference is, I know that any one person's experience, even if it includes lots of other people's war stories, is not enough to base this sort of conclusion on. Perhaps NYC doesn't count as a tourist city?

But I think I'll stop here: like pretty much else in this thread at this point, I'm just repeating myself, and frankly, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

How can I show you stats? Perhaps a study has been done about the tipping practices about Americans vs. the rest of the world. But I doubt it. All I can offer is my personal experience and years of observation that most Americans tip fairly well. And that most Europeans/Canadians/Australians do not. And short of a bunch of servers logging in from tourist towns to say, "Yep, you totally nailed it, ScoopKW," you're just going to have to take me at my word.

And keep in mind, I think that in general Europe does a better job of most things. I prefer Europe to the United States. I think they have a far better lifestyle than we do. I'd live there if I could. But when they come to this country, they do not tip. And it hasn't gotten any better in 25 years that I've been in this business.

And this is not the first or even the 100th time I've heard this particular argument. "The system is flawed, so I'll do my part by not leaving any money for the bartender who just mixed me five mojitos."

It's easy enough to get your question answered -- go to ANY tourist town in the United States, and ask the first server or bartender you come across if Europeans (and the rest) are lousy tippers. Then ask the second, and the third, and the 50th and the 100th. Keep asking until you find one who says, "No, Europeans (and the rest) are GREAT! I love seeing a tour bus full of them roll in. When that happens, I know my rent is going to be paid!"

Eventually, you will tire of getting the same answer over and over. Your countrymen don't tip. Or they tip poorly. Or they tip, but do so grudgingly. (EDIT -- There are a few who cheerfully tip their servers and other people in tipped positions. A FEW who don't see the whole business as some sort of legal thievery, personally directed at them. A FEW. But not very many. Like I said before, roughly 15% -- and maybe 5% are cheerful about it.)

Do I like the status quo? No.

Do I think there's a better way? Yes.

Does that give me reason to stiff the bartender who just made my Old Fashioned or the server who hustled, serving me my meal? No.

Edited October 22, 2011 by ScoopKW (log)

[Edward J]

Currently, I o/o a small artisan chocolate and pastry place, the only server I have is my partner.

From '97 tto '07 I o/o a catering business. In the begining, I hired waiters/esses through a hiring agency, I paid between $15-18/hr. Later we hired our own and paid the same rate although by '05 the going rate was $18-20/hr. Minimum wage was from '98 to 2010 fixed at $8.25/hr.

Tips for catering gigs are not common, but we did get a fair number of them. Tips were split evenly between all those who worked on-site. This included me.

[annabelle]

Yes, catering is a different animal. I served for a friend back in 91 or thereabouts when she had catering gigs. She payed me more than minimum wage which was about $6.00 an hour, I think in California at that time. I was paid a higher hourly wage when I was a bartender than when I waited tables, plus I was tipped out by the servers.

[pastrygirl]

Now if you can give the rest of us some suggestions on how not to be taxed on our entire income, we'd be grateful

Well - I was sort of hinting about how folks try to get away with that and it inevitably comes back to bite them.

I'm glad to hear you feel that way. There does seem to be a vocal contingency - hopefully a minority - that seems to feel it is their right to under report their earnings, just a perk of the industry and don't mess with the system. I can't support that.

I have to point out a fallacy in the notion that servers make $2 and hour. In states where tips can be counted as wages, if a person fails to make enough tips to earn minimum wage, the employer needs to make up the difference so the employee is making at least minimum wage. Say you show up to work, clock in and start your sidework, then there is a snowstorm and a bunch of reservations cancel and you are sent home after polishing silver and folding napkins and waiting around for 2 hours. Since you didn't earn any tips to be counted as wages, you should be paid minimum wage for those two hours, not the $2 and change. Although I imagine this is calculated by the week, so it might be wages from another day that end up covering that loss, not the employer. Not that minimum wage is enough to live on. Here is state-by-state information on tips counted as wages: http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm So yeah, you have to earn more in tips to earn a living wage, but nobody is really trying to live on $2.13 an hour.

More on topic, I can imagine it is permissible not to tip in very rare extreme circumstances. I think if service is poor or great the tip should reflect that. Rewarding bad service makes it worse for all of us.

I do resent the pressure to constantly tip incredibly generously. Tip 25% if you have a lot of extra money you want to give away, but don't sneer at me for tipping 18%. I think if you are in a state where the base rate is $2.13, you might want to tip a little more than when you are in a state where servers make the minimum hourly wage of $8.67 (WA). Servers in San Francisco get minimum wage of $9.92, and now they want a mandatory 25% tip? http://www.huliq.com/10061/restaurant-workers-want-25-mandatory-tip-san-francisco It's an expensive city to live and dine in, but that's ridiculous. Sorry, but not everybody gets to live in a loft in the Mission, some people can only afford Oakland.

[ScoopKW]

Sure the employers are required to make up the difference on a slow day to make sure the server is at least paid minimum wage.

I have also never seen that happen. I've seen servers stuck in restaurants prior to hurricanes, and not make a dime. There was no "well, at least you'll be paid minimum today" from the manager/owner.

And the places I've lived, even nine bucks an hour isn't enough to live on.

(And try to tell a server in Key West to move someplace cheaper. Where? Show me a cheap part of South Florida that is less than a four-hour drive from Key West. Do you want us to move to Orlando and fly in?)

[pastrygirl]

(And try to tell a server in Key West to move someplace cheaper. Where? Show me a cheap part of South Florida that is less than a four-hour drive from Key West. Do you want us to move to Orlando and fly in?)

I don't know where the servers in Key West should live. Maybe near the line cooks and bakers?

[Country]

(And try to tell a server in Key West to move someplace cheaper. Where? Show me a cheap part of South Florida that is less than a four-hour drive from Key West. Do you want us to move to Orlando and fly in?)

I don't know where the servers in Key West should live. Maybe near the line cooks and bakers?

Stock Island.

[Pedroinspain]

Every country has their share of inconsiderate tightwads. But it is my direct, first-hand personal experience that 15% of Americans are bad tippers, and 15% of Europeans are good tippers.

And if you have read this thread you will know the reason for this difference, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a tightwad. Zip, nada, niks.

The reason is that in Europe employers are required to pay a liveable wage so that the tip is REALLY only for service above the norm (= €5 on a €400 meal may simply reflect iffy food, service, etc. and be perfectly justifiable and transparent). In the USA employers in this industry are allowed by law to pay starvation wages. Is it the 'fault' of the European visitor for not knowing about this medieval practice? If so, let's go out onto the web and inform them to turn their watches back 120 years after crossing the Atlantic.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Pedroinspain (log)

[ScoopKW]

Every country has their share of inconsiderate tightwads. But it is my direct, first-hand personal experience that 15% of Americans are bad tippers, and 15% of Europeans are good tippers.

And if you have read this thread you will know the reason for this difference, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a tightwad. Zip, nada, niks.

The reason is that in Europe employers are required to pay a liveable wage so that the tip is REALLY only for service above the norm (= €5 on a €400 meal may simply reflect iffy food, service, etc. and be perfectly justifiable and transparent). In the USA employers in this industry are allowed by law to pay starvation wages. Is it the 'fault' of the European visitor for not knowing about this medieval practice? If so, let's go out onto the web and inform them to turn their watches back 120 years after crossing the Atlantic.

Please do tell them. Foreign visitors to the United States never seem to believe us when we try to tell them. Maybe you will have better luck.