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Pedroinspain

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  1. I was wondering if this logic also works with your hairdresser? With your plumber? With your car service mechanic? With your cardiac surgeon? Does the tip establish service? I would suggest not. So why in the dining trade. There are four short answers to this issue: 1) The U.S. hotel and restaurant services sector conned the American government (and hence the public) into being allowed to pay sub-legal wages. 2) They then passed the salary monkey on to their clients and then proceeded to apply progressive salami-tactics 3) Then then this highly dubious practice was exported (via their high-tipping international travellers) as being 'the norm', along with fast-food chains and over-priced denims. 4) The tyranny of the majority or the loudest then entered via the 'us-and-them' platform, and we know who is always right. Some regional societies are more resistant to outside fashion than others, and that is why silly-level tipping is still uncommon in Australia and most of Asia. In most other countries it is transparently included in the bill (usually 10%). I have to laugh when I read what Condé Nast considers the local standard in South Africa and Spain to be ... absolute nonsense. So 'silly-tipping' is a Mexico-USA-Canada thing, and I don't see the habits of locals in other countries falling for this illogical, inefficient or manipulative system in a great hurry .... note ... 'locals'. Of course this excludes popular tourist sites where well-heeled silly-tippers are common. It truly is a ridiculous system, just like imperial measurements, so I do not apologise for the sarcasm..
  2. I agree with Conifer; in Santa Caterina the staff are more friendly, but perhaps that is because there is less pressure and they have time to chat to you to find out how best they can help you .... which for me makes it a better destination than La Boqueria for real shopping. Expanding on the subject, if you end up in a village market and get the impression that the lil' ole' lady selling 23 tomatoes and some random veg is unfriendly, she probably isn't; she is just terrified at being spoken to by some big foreign gent with a funny Spanish accent and bent grammar.
  3. Would the problem be reduced if the US abolished the "tipped wage" concept, if employers were required to pay a competitive salary, and if the public were allowed to go back to the more logical system of tipping up to 10% for really good service, 5% for above average, and otherwise nothing? How did this prickly tension-producing custom become so ingrained, leading to ever-increasing tip %s? Bizarre. As other posters have commented, I don't tip my car mechanic for keeping me alive, or my cardiologist, and I owe them both much more than the server at the local pizzeria. Ah, but they don't depend on tips for a decent quality of life, I hear. Exactly.
  4. I'm not convinced ignorance is the only reason for non-tipping and under tipping. I've simply seen too many instances where "stingy, parsimonious, niggardly, miserly, and just plain mean" are better descriptors. Especially when they call for the manager to have the tip removed from the bill, and then leave the restaurant laughing about it. This happens far too often to be chalked up to simple ignorance of our customs. And there's still that German guidebook I read -- I have a feeling many visitors use this tactic to stretch their vacation Euro a little farther. Oh dear, ScoopKW, it appears that we have still not met in appreciation of the underlying causes of the conflict regarding 'tipping' in North America from the perspective of the vast majority of visitors to your shores. Even though a previous post of yours appeared to highlight that the problem was that Euro visitors were reluctant to understand that the problem lay in a medieval 'American' law permitting the payment of starvation wages to loyal staff, this most recent missive of yours reverts back to your previous position of placing the blame, not on a non-appreciation of this barbaric salary system, but instead on the tight-fistedness of Europeans (and presumably also Australians, Latin Americans, Japanese, South Africans, New Zealanders, Indians, etc). I think that we should agree to disagree. You and I have totally different views as to what 'tipping' is. You continuously revert back to the need to include in 'tipping' a recognition of the underpaid nature of the US service-sector workers and that it is not an unawareness of this that leads to Europeans 'under-tipping', but that the reason is the Scrooge-like nature of these visitors to your country. I in turn find that to be an unacceptable shifting of blame. Instead I intransigently continue to demand that a 'tip' is an appreciation for the quality of service and experience, and that salary issues are none of my business. You may continue to blame Europeans for their reluctance to contribute to restaurant/cruise workers' salaries, but we insist on blaming your tourist-industry lobbyists in the USA and their ability to get the great State to accept what is clearly an antiquated system. I do not contribute to the salary of the mechanic who services my car, to the teacher of my grandson, nor to the nurse who gives me post-operative treatment after a triple by-pass, by 'tipping' them. So why should I do so specifically for a waiter in the US because you chose to accept your country's deviation from modern first-world salary norms? Don't continue to beat the "tight-fisted" drum. It is the barbaric salary system in restaurants in the US that needs to be subject to the utmost scrutiny from you and your political representative, not any assumed tight-fistedness.
  5. And if you have read this thread you will know the reason for this difference, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a tightwad. Zip, nada, niks. The reason is that in Europe employers are required to pay a liveable wage so that the tip is REALLY only for service above the norm (= €5 on a €400 meal may simply reflect iffy food, service, etc. and be perfectly justifiable and transparent). In the USA employers in this industry are allowed by law to pay starvation wages. Is it the 'fault' of the European visitor for not knowing about this medieval practice? If so, let's go out onto the web and inform them to turn their watches back 120 years after crossing the Atlantic. Please do tell them. Foreign visitors to the United States never seem to believe us when we try to tell them. Maybe you will have better luck. I will try my best to spread the word So are we all onboard that the anomalously high % involved in 'tipping' in the USA is mostly a salary supplement to compensate for an archaic law and that hidden in there somewhere is also a non-transparent 'thank-you' for appreciated service? In other words can we agree that an ethical person should tip a minimum of (?) 15% just so that the waiting staff can keep the wolf from the door, irrespective of the quality of the food, service, cleanliness, etc. And that then (say) there is 5% for a nice smile, good recommendations, quality dining and attentive service? That is quite a complex story to get across, given (from the content of this thread) that many Americans don't even understand it properly and still believe that a 20% tip if for good service alone.
  6. And if you have read this thread you will know the reason for this difference, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a tightwad. Zip, nada, niks. The reason is that in Europe employers are required to pay a liveable wage so that the tip is REALLY only for service above the norm (= €5 on a €400 meal may simply reflect iffy food, service, etc. and be perfectly justifiable and transparent). In the USA employers in this industry are allowed by law to pay starvation wages. Is it the 'fault' of the European visitor for not knowing about this medieval practice? If so, let's go out onto the web and inform them to turn their watches back 120 years after crossing the Atlantic.
  7. Scoop, if you still believe that the tipping issue is only about 'tightwadness' then you have missed out on a lot of detail in this thread. Please allow me to summarise the real issues. When Europeans/Australians/NZs/South Africans/South Americans/etc talk about tipping they are not referring to the same thing as when folk from the US (and Canada?) use the word. A tip in the US is largely a salary supplement. A tip in those other countries is a voluntary (non-obligatory) token of appreciation for particularly fine service. The core of the issue is therefore that in the US it is legal (in some states) to pay workers a paltry wage and to shovel the burden over to the consumer for a cost that, in a first-world country, should be borne by the employer. It really is that simple, good folk. And the second thing that sticks in my craw is that it assumes that the employee is going to receive sufficient "tips" to take their income over the federal minimum. But what REALLY annoys me is when US tourist industry leaders (like Daniel J. Hanrahan, President & CEO of Celebrity Cruises) try to con us that their automatic "tipping charge" is in recognition of particularly fine service, when he knows darn well that it is to shovel what should be a line item employment cost onto the Celebrity guests. So when you visit the US please remember that it is permitted to pay certain tourist industry employees a third-world wage, and if you don't tip at the 15 to 20% level, you will be contributing to some possible but undefined hardship for that employee. I know that it seems like a barbaric practice to most of us, but as one poster commented, "It is what we have, so live with it." So Europeans, when comparing costs to eat out in the US, add 15% to the published price before you even start. And remember to do the same when judging the cost of that cruise that you might be planning. But the reverse equally applies. When Americans are in Europe etc, they should tip about 5% for average service and about 10% for exemplary attention. But they don't and in places like London and Paris this is really starting to rock the boat. This is one US export that we don't want, although we already have it on cruise ships here in Europe.
  8. For Americans travelling to Europe, Rick Steve's sums it up pretty well: "Restaurant tips are more modest in Europe than in America. In most places, 10 percent is a big tip. If your bucks talk at home, muzzle them on your travels. As a matter of principle, if not economy, the local price should prevail. Please believe me — tipping 15 or 20 percent in Europe is unnecessary, if not culturally insensitive." Remember - In Europe sub-minimum wages could result in prosecution; service is often already included in the quoted cost. So when you go to Cellar de Can Roca in Girona, please do not tip 15 or 20%. It screws up everything for the rest of us who live here permanently.
  9. Scoop gave good advice. I would emphasise his point about speaking French, Italian or Spanish. Since you are in all likelihood aiming at relatively menial jobs, you will need to receive instructions from people who do not necessarily speak English and/or to deal with the local public. If you cannot speak any of these then I would prepare myself for a few disappointments. I would push my time to coincide with the peak summer tourism months, i.e. mid-May to Mid-September because out of season the employment options are radically reduced. Ryanair, Easyjet, Vuelling and Air Berlin are frequently cheaper than rail. Beware that Amex cards are not particularly favoured in Europe. Instead, have you thought of working on a cruise liner? An example, chosen because it is rated top for food on CruiseCritic: http://www.celebritycareersatsea.com/ - Escargots à la Bourguignonne; Dover Sole Véronique; Baked French Onion Soup; Crispy Loup De Mer; Crème Brûlée;etc, with SOuth African Jacques Van Staaden at the helm. You can get a list of other cruise operators on the Med from here: http://www.cruisecompare.co.uk/mediterranean-cruises/ You get your board, meals, transport and a basic wage and can use your $7000 on your time-off to visit top restaurants, investigate local specialities across the Med, etc. Just a thought. Best of luck in meeting your aspirations and in becoming a great chef.
  10. So why is the whole tipping issue so contentious? I am going to suggest that it is because, firstly the entire process depends on cultural norms which are not standard across the globe, and secondly that in some countries the tipping practises have led to a lack of transparency. This in turn leads to us-and-them positions and finger poking. Allow me to explain. 1) When I first went to the US, a 5 to 10% tip was the order of the day, depending on quality. Then 10% became entrenched. Then "we have added 12.5% to your bill for your convenience". Then it became 15%. I am now informed that in places in Miami, the major Californian cities and NYC, less than 20% can lead to a lightly chilly response. Why the changes? Which measures have altered given that we are dealing with %s which cater for inflation, etc. 2) These are NOT universal norms, but seemingly reflect US trends. Where I live 5% is perfectly acceptable at this very moment, even though popular guidebooks suggest that 10 to 15% is current in Spain. Absolute rubbish!! For hard data see http://gospain.about.com/od/spanishlife/qt/tippinginspain.htm I concur fully with the results from the survey. In the south of France, excluding the Riviera, the same. In 'non-touristy' parts of Britain, the same. Outside of Amsterdam, the same. In London and Paris much higher levels are the norm. So what unifies these place where higher tipping levels are practised. And I am not even talking about those places in Europe that have "A 10 percent service charge is included in these prices" on the menu. 3) What does any tip mean? I see in this thread that it is for good service. I also see that it is a type of salary supplement, sometimes only for the waiter. So if Mrs X tips 17%, which part represents a salary supplement for an industry that pays sub-par wages, which part is for the overall pleasure of the dining experience, and which part is because of the very pleasant attention from the server? Or, and here comes my discomfort, doesn't it matter? I can only agree with the Australian who objected to Celebrity Cruise Lines CEO's bombastic promise to "educate Australians into a proper tipping system". The Australian poster's response was ... "Be a responsible company. Pay your staff the wage that they merit, and leave me to demonstrate my thanks for an evening that was especially pleasant and enjoyable." Culture counts and needs to be respected. If you don't believe that, ask the Disney Corporation management about their US36 million dollar loss in the first years of Euro-Disney when they insisted in sticking to the culturally unacceptable (to Europeans) practices of not providing alcohol with meals and insisting that staff be devoid of facial hair and make-up. They become culturally aware, turned around, and so did their profits. So, when I go to the US or on a Caribbean cruise, I will respect the culture, fit in, and pay 15% plus a bit more on occasion for exemplary quality and service. I don't like the lack of transparency, but I will respect it. When in Europe I will NOT conform to US practices. I object to a globalisation of culture and habits.
  11. Thanks for the welcomes One last question from across the pond. Waiters get paid a sub-minimum wage; fine, OK, understood, but it still merges the supplementary salary and the good service element into a single non-transparent whole. I don't favour the obscureness. So what about José Gonzales who does the dish washing out in the back? Is he also paid a 'sub' salary like the waiter? If so, he gets no tip. So the waiter scores big time and the potato peeler sucks the hind one. Something not level about this playing field, methinks. I prefer the other system. Pay everyone a legal salary, and then tip at the desk, so Jose´also gets his share due to the sparkling clean plates. I did a birding trip to Costa Rica last year. 14 out of the 17 were Americans. At the end there was a discussion as to what to tip the tour leader. "10% of the tour price" was the consensus. What!!?? He gets 10% of the fuel costs; 10% of the accommodation costs; 10% of the internal flight costs; 10% of the tour operator's profit element; 10% of the airport taxes; etc etc?? Somehow the logic of all of this totally escaped me. I gave him $75 and the driver $25 and called it a day. My advice to anyone visiting Spain (and I have read what the guide books say, and they are just plain WRONG)is tip 5% whatever. If its a smart place, I mean really top-line, tip 10%. Then add 5% for service if it made you sit up and stare. In fact that would be pretty acceptable in most of Europe outside London and Paris. I wonder why those 2 exceptions?
  12. I was very interested to read what you had to say about Astrid & Gaston (Lima), because I will be spending a month in that country soon, and I was concerned about my choice of that restaurant for the final dinner for our party of five. I had originally chosen it on the basis of two measures: 1) The high rating and the eloquent praise on Trip Advisor 2) The fact that it achieved number 42 on San Pellegrino’s list of Best Restaurants of the World http://www.theworlds50best.com/awards/1-50-winners I was particularly concerned because I hoped that we would be served value, but you say that it “cost an arm and a leg”. I was counting on their 12-course tasting menu costing 170 Soles ($62 or €43) as advertised on their web site. That really worried me because there are only 7 restaurants in the USA which rated higher than A&G. And I checked their prices. And they were WAAAAAAY higher than €42 for the signature menu. I went the other way - down the list. At number 56 was The French Laundry. The Prix Fixe was $270. I know that the above is a bit tongue in cheek , but it does mean that the highly-touted San Pelligrino list is flawed. Or that folk have different tastes I hope that it is not the former or our El Bulli, Celler de Can Roca and Mugaritz are overpriced, or even worse, not worth being so high on it. My wife and I spent her birthday last year at Bacchanalia in Atlanta. The tasting menu was $75. I will report back to EGullet when I compare its value to A&G in Lima. But I certainly intend also to try your recommendation of Cebichería La Mar, which I will also include in that review. Many thanks for your sharing.
  13. Yes, but only to the extent that it's greater than the minimum for exceptional service, and less than the minimum for truly awful service. 95% of the time you will be leaving 20% (arguably 15% away from the coasts and Chicago), because the employers and the state assume that that amount is part of the waiter's living wage. From reading the responses to the OP, can I conclude that in the US tipping is a form of salary supplement for the waiter who is serving you? I am not used to that approach. In Europe, South America, Africa, Asia and Australia, tipping is an extra gratuity for above-average service, yes, mainly by the waiter, but quite definitely also reflects the overall performance of the restaurant. If I were served the wrong food on the Costa Brava and then got any form of lip from the waiter, the tip would be 0%. So which part of the tip does the waiter know to be his salary supplement, and which bit is his/her superior service? May I also observe that, rarely on the forums that I frequent, have I seen so many rude responses to a perfectly valid question as was posed in the OP. I am astounded that a topic such as tipping practice justifies such naked aggression and pseudo-psychological analyses of the motives of the poster.
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