"18% tip included" a spreading problem

[Lapin d'Argent]

<snip>On the other hand, I realize that service has to be paid for somehow, and it will either be reflected in the cost of a meal, or more honestly passed on as a service charge.

I don't understand. Why would including a service charge in the price of the meal be less than honest?

Don't get me wrong, I prefer traditional tipping methods - I'm just curious. One never sees other costs broken out on a guest check (so much for the cooks, so much for overhead, so much for the food cost, dish breakage, utilities, etc). Why should service be different if an all-inclusive bill was to be presented?

That's an excellent point.

Unfortunately, one doesn't normally tip various line cooks for a particularly good salad or app, for instance. Why does only the front of the house get the bounty, when we're there for the food, not just the service?

[chezjim]

A tip was once very much that - a small amount off the top of the main bill to leave as a token for the waiter. 5% used to be common. Then it got up to 10% and the increasing assumption that you were helping to pay the person's salary.

In Europe the tip is included - at 15%. This is euphemistically called "the service" and so, in France at least, some waiters have started saying "The service is included, but not the tip [pourboire]." In other words, start including the tip and soon servers will find ways to get... an additional tip.

Now, people EXPECT 18%? Almost a fifth of the cost of the meal?

Basically, the percentage keeps going up and whatever it hits as a peak, some customers will always want to show they're big tippers by going beyond it and so... we end up with one person here leaving... a THIRTY PERCENT TIP?

If anyone should be getting that large a percentage of the whole price of your meal, wouldn't it be the cook?

This escalation, along with pressures to buy bottled water, have desserts I don't want, etc. have a lot to do with why I stopped going to restaurants much a while back or, if I eat out, do so at my local cafe. Being treated as a milk cow just isn't much fun.

Edited June 11, 2010 by chezjim (log)

[Nicholas Ellan]

In a city with a huge tourist contingent, I've seen multiple businesses going the "suggested tip" route. This is both a convenience and a friendly reminder - you'll get a bill which has the tip amounts for 5/10/15/20% automatically calculated on the total. Saves you some arithmetic and broaches the topic in a not-totally-impolite manner.

Automatic gratuity is only appropriate for large groups (6-8 is the usual starting point). And yes, it's almost always >15% these days.

[JimS]

Years ago, I worked at Michael McCarty's DC place, Adirondacks. When it first opened they tried to do things differently. They paid the wait staff well (the kitchen staff too for that matter), and had a no tipping policy. That didn't last long at all. It made the customers uncomfortable. I think the customers thought the servers were going to run them down as they left and scream at them for being cheapskates!

I find it somewhat amusing, and not a little disconcerting, the rash of people arrested for refusing to pay the mandatory gratuity at various places. Every year or so there seems to be a new story. The last I caught was a couple in Philly arrested last winter.

[MattyC]

Alright, since some people seem to think how I spoke was a little..... harsh? Let me clarify. First off, i'm pretty blunt - i'm a nice guy, but I don't usually put a filter on what I say, so if you think i'm making a 'personal attack' on you or something else, I can get you a warm glass of milk and hold your hand until it's all better.

My argument is based solely on that PARTICULAR hotel that I worked at - I can't speak for many others, I can't speak for restaurants that do that (unless it's for large parties). For that place, I believe it worked. Like I mentioned before, in no way, shape, or form, is automatically adding 18% the best idea. So for those that think i'm all about it and get all huffy, ease off. But when servers - who at this particular hotel, were also doing the dishes in between room service orders, who were also prepping their own sides, condiments, etc (not just stocking - actually doing really work such as chopping, cutting, etc), who would walk away a the end of the night, like I said, with 10$ take home - and not like Edward said being 10/hr - an actually 10$ take home at the end of their entire shift - yes, I think 18% is deserved, and should be tacked on there. And if anyone was wondering, no, this was actually a decent hotel, not some little crapfest of a place.

Some hotels, whether they are good or bad, utilize staff differently than most restaurants. When you dine out, yes, the server has very little to do with your entire experience, it's true, and the amount of money they make is sickening for the amount of work they do. But where I had worked at that time, and other hotels as well, may have smaller staff, and may have staff working multiply departments and job requirements, so I do feel that IF a place is going to tack on that auto grat, then a Hotel is probably going to be a place where it would actually make some sense, because they very well could be responsible for more than just bringing you your food on the elevator - so in that regard, I do agree with it if reasons leading up to that including guests thinking they could just skip out on tipping. Because for someone who did a good amount for your service to get stiffed, doesn't sit right with me, for whatever reason.

At a restaurant and for smaller parties, no, I don't agree with it at all. Which I think is where my argument and others are clashing - I wasn't talking about in normal restaurants.

[Edward J]

Wow...Thought this thread was dead, most of the posts were from April.

In all due fairness MattyC, you never said what your hourly wages are, if it is a Union Shop or not, and for comparison, what a cook is earning. It is only the wait staff who take money at the end of a shift,--even if it is only $10.00, everyone else has to wait until payday.

But the biggest question that remains is, IF the Hotel were to slap a 18% tip on the bill, do YOU feel you are entitled to the whole 18%? Do you feel you are responsible for the entire dining experience and therefore entitled to a percentage of the entire bill without sharing with anyone else?

Tips are tips, and salary is salary. If you feel you are not being compensated enough for your work, why not go to your superiors? If the hotel you are in is a Union shop (as the majority are) why not go to them and ask what can be done? After all they garnishee paychecks irregardless of what happens.

[MaxH]

As chejim pointed out, the approach to service billing varies by country. If you've spent time in Europe, you know about explicit "service charges" included (10, 12, 15%), often announced on the menu, and the custom of usually tipping a little beyond, more so for good service. The US custom is completely unfamiliar to many people, and it makes sense to allow for that in a business catering to visitors.

But this discussion seems to assume that "18% tip included" goes to servers. What do you think about another wrinkle:

A large metropolitan restaurant that happens to be organized as a private club -- basically a good restaurant with a membership fee, and facilities for business meetings, seminars, etc. -- customarily adds 18% service charge to dining bills, for years. Then word goes out (in letters from a lawyer representing former servers) that the "service charge" didn't go to servers, as most people might naturally assume, but to the business. Moreover, the employees evidently accepted that as part of their employment terms, until some of them decided to sue.

[Edward J]

Labour laws vary greatly from province to province (CDN) and I guess, from State to State(US)

What does a "Sevice charge" actually mean? It's not a "gratuity" which would imply a tip, it's a "charge". Is it the amount it costs to put ice water and a tablecloth on the table? I believe they do this/or did do this in Italy, but am pretty sure it wasn't 18%

I'd love to hear the restaurant's defense/explanation for the charge, what they were paying the wait staff, what the min. wage was at the time, and since it was a set up as a club, if the waitstaff were actually making any tips.

Maybe they (owners) were pocketing the money and laughing all the way to the bank, or maybe they were off-setting/supplementing min. wage, the waitstaff's wages with the charge, assuming the members didn't tip, or didn't tip very much.

Like I said, I'd love to hear the restaurant's version of the story, and the State Labour Board's findings---assuming the ex-employees filed a complaint with the State Labour Board.

[MaxH]

In this case, I'm pretty certain local labor laws weren't the issue at all. The employees were properly compensated all along, I gather (just differently from typical restaurant terms here, where "tips" are a big part of pay).

What stood out was (1) for 10 or 15 years this was evidently satisfactory to both sides, but diners assumed they were paying these charges directly to people serving them, as usual, and the restaurant and the servers let them think so. (2) Later, a private lawyer approached these diners, about developing that assumption into an after-the-fact claim against the employer, for some of those "service charge" proceeds. (As you likely know, US civil law customs differ markedly from the Canadian, including a larger volume of tort claims undertaken at comparatively low risk to plaintiffs, assisted by lawyers sometimes compensated contingently on success. That's a general comment, I don't know the plaintiffs' arrangement in this case.)

An unusual situation all around.

[Edward J]

So who hired the lawyers, the diners or the employees? And who gets the compensation from the case, the diners or the employees?

Most clubs that I know of, have rules and regulations pertaining to fees written on the membership forms. And many catering outfits and private clubs that I know of, have "service charges" that are meant to cover regular service labour charges (setting up rooms, tables, coffee service, plating service, moving equipment from location to location, etc). Basically, if a customer wants a dance floor in teh middle of a field, the caterer would charge rental for the equipment, plus a "service charge" that would cover all labour needed to set up the dance floorhall. Gratuity would be extra.....

But is a "service charge" a gratuity? Did the menu specifically state NOT to tip the waitstaff extra, as it is commonly seen in many European and some Asian countries?

My brother is an architect, specializing in small public buildings (schools, churches, community centers, etc)and will not--for love or money- ever do any work in the U.S., even consulting. Mildly put, he has a healthy respect for U.S. lawyers.

So do I...........

[MaxH]

Again, the lawyer I mentioned represented former servers. The 18% service charge was being added to dining bills in the same manner and appearance as the gratuities in the restaurants described in this thread.

[Edward J]

.....1) for 10 or 15 years this was evidently satisfactory to both sides, but diners assumed they were paying these charges directly to people serving them, as usual, and the restaurant and the servers let them think so. (2) Later, a private lawyer approached these diners, about developing that assumption into an after-the-fact claim against the employer, for some of those "service charge" proceeds......

So, basically instead of an ambulance, the lawyer started chasing diners to get a case, and then approached the waitstaff to hire him tio get court-approved "seconds"?

The more I read through this, the more I'd like to hear something from the restaurant and the actual wording on their menu and the reciepts pertaining to the charge.

[MaxH]

The more I read through this, the more I'd like to hear something from the restaurant and the actual wording on their menu and the reciepts pertaining to the charge.

Me too, but since we can't, I summarized the available facts, above. (Which don't include second-guessing the lawyer's motivations or other details "not in evidence." I probably won't respond to further comments on such tangents.) Again: Diners received a letter from a lawyer (I've seen it) who already represented a group of former-employee plaintiffs.

The facts I've given are striking, IMO, both for the atypical use of "service charge" and for this becoming an issue of contention only later.

[ScottyBoy]

I had never run into this before at a fine dining restaurant. It was just a party of two, when the check came and I gave my card I didn't read the details before tipping my standard 25% on that total. Well the restaurant has a 9 course dinner without a price, I ened up tipping 25% on top of 18% that was already included. so i tipped 43% on a check that was....let's just say, pricey.

Was not happy,

and the cherry on top, food wasn't very good...