Baking Chocolate

[Suvir Saran]

And if that is a piece of candied violet, it's used to camouflage the hole.

Look, the bit about the truffle casings is one thing, but anyone who presents this type of one dimensional line is just not a chocolatier worthy of merit. It's like a chef who only makes terrines. There's a lot more to the profession than that.

That's just my opinion...and I'm sticking to it.

I was looking at the chocolates closely and see that many pictures that could have looked just as great without the chocolates having any garnishes all have garnishes placed so that at least my questioning mind wonders what they are hiding.

I agree about the vioet drop comouflaging the hole. As also the cherry in the 'Chef Pascal", the silver or gold leaf in the "Mint Julep" and in the picture for Ambrosia, there is a spot that could look like it is where the hole is. It has a drop of sweat... But who knows...

And when I came to "Naga", I wanted to throw up.. seriously.. who wants to eat chocolate with curry? Ewww.... maybe Americans that know little about the subtleties of Indian cuisine will buy nonsense like that... You could have an Indian inspired chocolate without having to make such trash. There are so many spices Native to India and so many of them lend themselves perfectly to Indian cooking. Makes me wonder how serious this outfit is to their trade.

But again, I am ready to be proven wrong.. But for that I need to hear from the owner and be shown credible proof. Till then, there are those chocolatiers that may not have delicious websites, but certainly have products that speak highly of their legend.

[Steve Klc]

Suvir--who wants to eat chocolate with curry? I do.

Curry goes very well with dark chocolate, in the right hands. At El Bulli one of Alberto Adria's signatures is a chocolate-coconut-curry dessert (it's in his first dessert book and he'll be demonstrating it in his master class at The French Pastry School in Chicago this coming week: it contains a curry gelatin and a curry creme anglaise with the consistency of a sabayon.) Reserve judgement until Colleen and I do a chocolate-curry dessert for you sometime and we'll see what you think, ok? On the menu at Zaytinya I have a chocolate dessert called "Turkish Coffee"--dark chocolate with espresso, anise and cardamom--that is our best selling dessert so far--last night 48 of the 150 desserts sold were the Turkish coffee --and this is in Washington, DC--a very conservative food town, supposedly.

Yes, to you, curry is a loaded term and full of meanings, but we've been down this road before discussing that (I think ill-advised) comment about curry attributed to Peter Hoffman of Savoy in Adam Gopnik's "Paris to the Moon," which Bux, Plotnicki, me, you and others talked to death on the site.

I haven't had the Vosges Naga "truffle," pre-made shell suspicions aside, but it might be good and the fact remains curry is up for grabs--up for culinary interpretation and inspiration--and it doesn't really matter whether a chef or consumer is familiar with the subtleties and riches of Indian cooking and culture. It doesn't have to have any baggage attached to it. The final product does or doesn't work on the palate. It's like a chai blend--a novice could pull an Indian grandmother's recipe off the web, blend it with chocolate and make a creme brulee with it--and never have had real Indian chai--the beverage--ever before. I know, this is how Colleen and I created our first version of "Milk chocolate chai creme brulee," with a little crust of caramelized jaggery, years ago. It remains killer after all these years.

Inspiration can take many forms and sometimes, despite what the Saveur/IACP/authenticity/purist-types would have you believe, it does not have to be based on extensive reading and research and immersion in a culture. Sometimes it just happens. Of course, you are much more likely to succeed if you do your homework, and that includes embracing what knowledgeable authorities have to teach you.

[snowangel]

And the exhibit you give such credibility to, may not be everything you make it out to be.

I have yet to go to an exhibit that wasn't heavily funded by sponsors. Who were the sponsors of this exhibit?

[Lesley C]

I'm with Suvir on this one.

I've tasted curry and dark chocolate together and thought it was awful.

I'm not one for the eccentric flavour combinations, and this one just didn't work for me. There are many individual spices in a masala that marry well with chocolate, but all at once, and the chocolate starts to fight to get through. Or you bite into it and say "oh chocolate AND ...curry!"

Steve, do you use commercial curry powder or mix your own blend?

[Steve Klc]

Great question Lesley, since conducting the research for that Indian restaurant consulting project of mine in NYC a few years ago, I only use whole spices, make my own blends, some are toasted or roasted first, and then ground in a powerful but surprisingly affordable ($120) Indian spice grinder (Sumeet from JB Prince) that can even grind wet mixes--so you can put the fresh ginger right in with the tea and spices, like whole cardamom or stick cinnamon, grind and in seconds have a pulverised paste.

I burned out a few cheap Krups coffee grinders before I saw the light. Of course, if I knew Suvir then he probably would have saved me a few years of frustration on my road to enlightenment.

I haven't had much luck with commercial blends or pre-ground spices, I must admit they all seem like sawdust to me. For some other applications I use the Pacojet to get incredibly flavorful powders or essences of pure flavor which can be added to batters or creams directly and do not require straining--much more intense and immediate than any traditional form of infusion.

By the way, in case anyone is wondering, you can tell when a chocolatier is using a pre-made commercial shell--just cut the truffle open with a knife: you'll see a perfectly uniform, relatively thick sphere all around--and this is usually dipped or enrobed in a very thin covering of chocolate. You'll be able to see the thick and the thin as two layers--attached but separate--kind of like a coat of paint on thick wallpaper as you peel it off the wall. What Lesley was pointing out is that in the finest artisinal or machine enrobed chocolates--even in molded chocolates--the wall is impeccably thin.

[Steve Klc]

Elizabeth--I just re-read this thread and noticed your question about Guittard--I have recently become a huge fan of the following "E. Guittard" chocolates--E. Guittard being Guittard's higher-end couverture formulations: their 61% "Lever du Soleil", the 72% "Coucher du Soleil and two of their 65% single varietals--the Ecuador Nacional and the Sur del Lago (from Venezuela, I believe.) Guittard will be at the NY Chocolate Show and I am sure you'll be able to sample these varieties there, in case anyone plans to attend.

I chose the E. Guittard 61% and 72% for all the chocolate components--a cake, a flan and a sorbet--at my most current restaurant project.

(I am told Charlie Trotter now uses E. Guittard, not that this means anything, however; Trotter once endorsed Hawaiian Vintage Chocolate, a truly awful chocolate if ever there was one.)

[Lesley C]

And I was trying to point out that the good chocolatiers do not limit their output to one style of chocolate. It's not just about diverse fillings, it's about making chocolates of all shapes and flavours that reflect the chef's particular style, taste, and technique.

To me there is 0 technique in truffle casings. That's why large commercial companies rely on them more and more frequently. You can hire someone with no experience or training to fill and finish those chocolates (and pay them minimum wage), over an experienced chocolate maker.

[Suvir Saran]

Suvir--who wants to eat chocolate with curry?  I do.

Curry goes very well with dark chocolate, in the right hands.  At El Bulli one of Alberto Adria's signatures is a chocolate-coconut-curry dessert (it's in his first dessert book and he'll be demonstrating it in his master class at The French Pastry School in Chicago this coming week: it contains a curry gelatin and a curry creme anglaise with the consistency of a sabalyon.)  Reserve judgement until Colleen and I do a chocolate-curry dessert for you sometime and we'll see what you think, ok?  On the menu at Zaytinya I have a chocolate dessert called "Turkish Coffee"--dark chocolate with espresso, anise and cardamom--that is our best selling dessert so far--last night 48 of the 150 desserts sold were the Turkish coffee --and this is in Washington, DC--a very conservative food town, supposedly.

Yes, to you, curry is a loaded term and full of meanings, but we've been down this road before discussing that (I think ill-advised) comment about curry attributed to Peter Hoffman of Savoy in Adam Gopnik's "Paris to the Moon," which Bux, Plotnicki, me, you and others talked to death on the site.

I haven't had the Vosges Naga "truffle," pre-made shell suspicions aside, but the fact remains curry is up for grabs--up for culinary interpretation and inspiration--and it doesn't really matter whether a chef or consumer is familiar with the subtleties and riches of Indian cooking and culture.  It doesn't have to have any baggage attached to it.  The final product does or doesn't work on the palate.  It's like a chai blend--a novice could pull an Indian grandmother's recipe off the web, blend it with chocolate and make a creme brulee with it--and never have had real Indian chai--the beverage--ever before.  I know, this is how Colleen and I created our first version of "Milk chocolate chai creme brulee," with a little crust of caramelized jaggery, years ago.  It remains killer after all these years.

Inspiration can take many forms and sometimes, despite what the Saveur/IACP/authenticity/purist-types would have you believe, it does not have to be based on extensive reading and research and immersion in a culture.  Sometimes it just happens.  Of course, you are much more likely to succeed if you do your homework, and that includes embracing what knowledgeable authorities have to teach you.

Steven,

I am afraid you and I understand curry powder to be two very different animals. For other than that, we are agreeing on more than we disagree. What a shame that one word has divided us while our creations are rather similar.

"Naga

Named after a tribe in Northeast India, we’ve combined natural coconut extract, milk chocolate, and a pinch of fragrant curry powder. Dipped in milk chocolate and finished with a sprinkling of Northern Indian curry, this truffle creates a beautiful balance in spiciness, sweetness and color. A must try for the adventurous sort! " - This is the description from Vosges website for Naga truffles.

Vosges website

Curry powder is not what any sane person would eat with dessert of any kind. Maybe you call cardamom and cinnamon and anise curry powder or curry, but I do not. Those are perfect and amazing partners for dessert. Or maybe to you a powder that induces the aromas of savory spices, onions and garlic is a fine partner to desserts, again, I would beg to differ. But if you are calling caradmom, ginger, cinnamon, cloves, black peppercorn, nutmeg, mace, anise, fennel or some other sweet spices curry, I would just have to say that we both like the same ingredients but our cultural differences have made us understand a word very differently and we have different associations with that word. That is easy to accept and will bring us closer than divide us away from one another. For in reality, we are each using the same spices with dessert and happy about that. Curry powder as used by Vosges, or at least as described on their site is not what I would every fathom as a decent partner to any dessert. It is a savory powder created to mimic the flavors found in Indian savory foods.

Curry powder has spices that induce the flavor or garlic and onions into dishes it is added to. But I know many chefs now would love those flavors in desserts.. But certainly I am not one of those.

But reading your post, I am certain we think of the word curry very differently. Sadly to some curry means using Indian ingredients or spices. And to Indians curry would mean a sauce, curry leaf, curry powder, and all of these are savory foods.

"On the menu at Zaytinya I have a chocolate dessert called "Turkish Coffee"--dark chocolate with espresso, anise and cardamom--that is our best selling dessert so far--last night 48 of the 150 desserts sold were the Turkish coffee --and this is in Washington, DC--a very conservative food town, supposedly."

And as for the success of your dessert, I am sure in NYC you would have sold even more so. And if it is half as good as I think it should be, since it is made by you, I would be ordering several orders of it daily. But even in an inebriate state of mind, I would not ever call your Turkish coffee a curry coffee. Those are not ingredients I think of when I think curry powder. So we are actually on the same page Steven, even though you may not want to believe.

"I haven't had the Vosges Naga "truffle," pre-made shell suspicions aside, but the fact remains curry is up for grabs--up for culinary interpretation and inspiration--and it doesn't really matter whether a chef or consumer is familiar with the subtleties and riches of Indian cooking and culture. It doesn't have to have any baggage attached to it. The final product does or doesn't work on the palate. It's like a chai blend--a novice could pull an Indian grandmother's recipe off the web, blend it with chocolate and make a creme brulee with it--and never have had real Indian chai--the beverage--ever before. I know, this is how Colleen and I created our first version of "Milk chocolate chai creme brulee," with a little crust of caramelized jaggery, years ago. It remains killer after all these years."

Steven, you are barking up the wrong tree, fortunately for me, the playful person in me is not always a purist I tend to be and love indulging in. Just recently I have given a recipe I first played with as a young boy to a restaurant in NYC. It is being made in to a Pots de Creme. It is made with Chai and certainly is not the traditional spices that go into a Chai and yet it is called a Chai Pots de Creme. It is very similar to what Colleen and you have done with your creme brulee. In fact mine uses jaggery as well. So, again, you and I are thinking and creating along similar lines. But to call my Chai Pots de Creme a Curry Pots de Creme would be a shame. At least to the finer Indian sensibilities I have as one from India. I have grown knowing the many meanings of curry and what you have understood of that word is very different from what I have been taught and also have understood in my long years of studying spices and Indian ingredients. But the fact remains that Colleen, you and I are still enjoying similar triumphs using spices from India. We are only lost in semantics and verbiage. Thank heavens!

"Inspiration can take many forms and sometimes, despite what the Saveur/IACP/authenticity/purist-types would have you believe, it does not have to be based on extensive reading and research and immersion in a culture. Sometimes it just happens. Of course, you are much more likely to succeed if you do your homework, and that includes embracing what knowledgeable authorities have to teach you."

I agree completely with you. Am not sure what made you think otherwise. In fact I never had militant fusion players like you in my world growing up in India, and yet I was inspired to play and fuse and create anew using what I had grown up with and found easily in India. I did what you have done in reverse. You borrowed from traditions outside of your Franco-American traditions and I borrowed from what is familiar to you. And yes it was helpful to finally see and read and speak with knowledgeable authorities, but for the decade or more that I did not have them, my own mind, my own need to find newer horizons and my need to create new stuff led me to practice and perfect. I had friends and family to share with, and luckily they were patient through my many failures and found memory only for those times when I met success. Again, we are thinking alike.

[Suvir Saran]

I'm with Suvir on this one.

I've tasted curry and dark chocolate together and thought it was awful.

I'm not one for the eccentric flavour combinations, and this one just didn't work for me. There are many individual spices in a masala that marry well with chocolate, but all at once, and the chocolate starts to fight to get through. Or you bite into it and say "oh chocolate AND ...curry!"

Steve, do you use commercial curry powder or mix your own blend?

Lesley,

I think Steven is with us. It is my assumption that he calls spices from India curry. I think, and I could very well be wrong, that he does not mean curry powder when he glorifies curry as a fine ingredient to be used with chocolate. I think and I hope he means as you have also suggested and I have always agreed upon myself, the clever use of individual or even multiple spices used in dessert. They can be great dessert ingredients and certainly find their way into many desserts I make.

I am sure Steve mixes his own blend of spices and calls them a curry powder. If he uses a commercial curry powder for desserts, I must see him demonstrate that dessert to me and then do a taste test with me for a large group of people. I would be shocked to know that any dessert made with a commercial curry powder could sell more than 2-3 servings anywhere in the world. Or even if it sold, I would love to meet those people that would finish it. But if Steven calls what he uses in his Turkish Coffee or Chai Creme Brulee a curry powder, I would have to say I would be Stevens most frequent customer.

[Suvir Saran]

I haven't had much luck with commercial blends or pre-ground spices, I must admit they all seem like sawdust to me.  For some other applications I use the Pacojet to get incredibly flavorful powders or essences of pure flavor which can be added to batters or creams directly and do not require straining--much more intense and immediate than any traditional form of infusion.

I rest my case.

Lesley and Steven,

We are all on the same page. Steven the spices you mention do not merit the name Curry Powder and are only a very insignificant part of what one gets when buying a curry powder.

Thus, what you mix and blend is exactly what any Indian chef or any fine chef wanting to fuse spices into desserts would think of when thinking of Indian spices and ingredients. Bravo!

I am glad that you were not making desserts with that savory Curry Powder that is mostly turmeric, fenugreek and cumin and then other savory and smelly spices. I was frightened that I would have to have you demo for me how you could sell and have followers if you were actually using curry powder. Now I will certainly get some sleep tonight, if I had not read the above, I would have tossed and turned all night wondering how a chef I respect as much as I respect Steve could ever think of using Curry Powder in desserts.

[Suvir Saran]

Chai Flan

I am giving the link above to my recipe for a chai flan. It is different from the Pots de Creme I mentioned. But will give you an idea of how I use spices myself.

[Fat Guy]

While Suvir has been getting a good night's sleep, I've been looking at some definitions of curry and curry powder. And what I've learned is nothing. Everything I've been able to find on the subject has been borderline incoherent. It's one of those words that gets tossed around without much consideration.

It seems to me that curry, as understood by the average English-speaking shmoe from North America or the UK, just means anything that tastes vaguely Indian. Whereas, if you actually come from India -- like Suvir -- you understand the term to be a bit more regulated.

I'm hungry.

[snowangel]

It seems to me that curry, as understood by the average English-speaking shmoe from North America or the UK, just means anything that tastes vaguely Indian. Whereas, if you actually come from India -- like Suvir -- you understand the term to be a bit more regulated.

I'm hungry.

And, if you grew up in Thailand, as I did, it takes on yet another meaning. But, as one who makes one's own curry paste, I do appreciate what spices and herbs in a mixture of one's own, as opposed to a pre-packaged blend, can do.

I, too, am hungry.

[Fat Guy]

I can't decide whether I want chocolate, curry, or both.

[Dave the Cook]

I've found pretty much the same thing, although I have some recipes called curry that do not call for "curry powder." The seasonings common to all the recipes are chiles, ginger, coriander, turmeric and curry leaves. Other frequently mentioned flavors are garlic, fenugreek, cumin and cinnamon. Mustard seeds also make an appearance.

This basic + dependent variables makes it kind of like five-spice powder.

Suvir, what are curry leaves?

[snowangel]

I think I want both chocolate and curry, not sure in what order. But, both washed down with beer. I think beer is my favorite accompiment for both chocolate and curry (Indian or Thai).

[Dave the Cook]

Chocolate and curry? Then what you want is a mole! Or is it molé?

[Suvir Saran]

I've found pretty much the same thing, although I have some recipes called curry that do not call for "curry powder." The seasonings common to all the recipes are chiles, ginger, coriander, turmeric and curry leaves. Other frequently mentioned flavors are garlic, fenugreek, cumin and cinnamon. Mustard seeds also make an appearance.

This basic + dependent variables makes it kind of like five-spice powder.

Suvir, what are curry leaves?

You have it right... the seasonings you mention are most of what goes into curries.. and many of those you mention (albeit ginger, cinnamon and chiles) would make any dessert taste somewhat dubious.

That is why it would not be appropriate to call something with Indian spices Curry So and So.... I am sure as creative people we can find other names that would do justice to our dishes. We could debate this endlessly but why? We have here people from a land that the word curry is most associated with, is it unreasonable to try and understand what that word may mean to the native? Are we only interested in making a jolt? I see no reason why a chef cannot fathom that subtle linguistic difference, in fact, a chef that can play with these spices from India and other parts of the East and can also understand the subtle nuances of language and culture from those regions will have my respect much more.

Curry Leaves are the leaves of small tree. These leaves are called Meethee Neem (which would loosely translate in English as Sweet Neem). It is the only ingredient known to an Indian chef that is remotely close to being called Curry. In fact these leaves should be written as Kari... but they are commonly called Curry Leaves. They are used most often in Southern India. In vegetable stir fries, in chutneys, in Sambhaars and Rassams and also in rice preparations. When fried in oil, or even just crushed between your fingers, it will exude a great savory flavor that can make an addict out of a non-believer.

PS: I did sleep well for I was comforted by knowing that Steven just used a word I associated with savory in referring to spices that are more fragrant. And when I saw his post and the spices he uses, I was hungry to taste his desserts. They are poles apart from any curry I have eaten in/from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Malaysia or Thailand.

[Suvir Saran]

And, if you grew up in Thailand, as I did, it takes on yet another meaning. But, as one who makes one's own curry paste, I do appreciate what spices and herbs in a mixture of one's own, as opposed to a pre-packaged blend, can do.

I, too, am hungry.

[Suvir Saran]

Main Entry: 2cur·ry

Variant(s): also cur·rie /'k&r-E, 'k&-rE/

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural curries

Etymology: Tamil kari

Date: 1681

1 : a food, dish, or sauce in Indian cuisine seasoned with a mixture of pungent spices; also : a food or dish seasoned with curry powder

The defintion of Curry above is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary

[Suvir Saran]

One entry found for curry powder.

Main Entry: curry powder

Function: noun

Date: 1810

: a condiment consisting of several pungent ground spices (as cayenne pepper, fenugreek, and turmeric

Curry Powder as explained in Merriam-Webster

[Suvir Saran]

Main Entry: 3curry

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): cur·ried; cur·ry·ing

Date: 1839

: to flavor or cook with curry powder or a curry sauce

More on Curry at Merriam-Webster

[Suvir Saran]

Thai Curry Pastes

When I was learning how to make Curry Thai style, following were the list of ingredients I was asked to use as a most basic red curry.. and then some were changed when preparing a green one....

Red Curry - Garlic, shallots. lemon grass, coriander seeds, cumin seeds, black peppercorn, red chiles, root of coriander, ground galangal, lime peel and trassi.

Green Curry - Fresh green peppers are used instead of dry red chiles and chopped fresh coriander leaves (cilantro) are added to the basic red recipe above.

Nothing too dessert friendly in those two curry sauces or pastes either. But again, some elements of these pastes or sauces could be successfully married in the preparation of dessert. I use a few of the ingredients above when making desserts... They are great.

[Suvir Saran]

Basic Indian Curry Powder

Following is a very basic list of ingredients that would be used in an Indian version of Curry Powder. Most brands in the market use the below ingredients in some unique proportion to change theirs slightly.

Turmeric, cumin seeds, red chiles, coriander seeds, mustard seeds, black peppercorns, fenugreek seeds, curry leaves, and ground ginger

This basic curry powder can be made more aromatic with the addition of cinnamon and cloves.

It is made more savory by adding asafetida into the mix.

[Suvir Saran]

I emailed a friend last night in Sri Lanka asking if they use curry in desserts in Sri Lanka. Also I had asked her about the ingredient list for basic curry powder. I had sent her a link to this thread... Hoping she would be inspired to become a member. I will have to continue to work on her about that. She sent two sets of powder styles and their ingredients. I am posting part of her note below. She has addressed me as an American. Interesting!

"Anything goes in the US. If we make a Hamburger to suit our tastes, they will call us crazy, heathens, bad cooks or people with little if any knowledge and taste. But when they murder our customs and traditions without understanding their finer nuances, we are scoffed at for trying to explain simple facts to them. Strange are the ways of their arrogant minds. But I am saddened to report to you that in Sri Lanka we are becoming more hegemonic like them and less tolerant. Instead of learning good things from you Americans, we are picking up your worst traits.

Now back to what you wrote me for. Curry is to us Sri Lankans a sauce that is made to accompany those dishes that are served as what you people would call entrees. These are spicy, salty, and pungent sauces that accompany fish and meat and of course vegetables. There is no use of curry in desserts. We have spices that we use to make our desserts aromatic. Curry and curry powder are used for those dishes where one wants a savoury and spicy flavor, not sweet and delicate."

Sri Lankan Curry

Coriander seeds, fennel seeds, cumin seeds, curry leaves, fenugreek seeds, chiles, cardamom, cloves, cinnamon, cayenne and ginger

Colombo Curry

Garlic, turmeric, ginger, coriander, mustard, chiles, and cumin