poolish/pre-ferment question

[Cameron Smith]

Hey guys,

I am starting on the road to baguettes I have been tinkering with cinnamon rolls and artisan bread and now want to try something else to expand my learning. I am trying a poolish baguette recipe. Last night I mixed up the poolish and this morning it looked great bubbly and it rose a lot. Before I left for work I put this in the fridge. Now I am second guessing myself. Can you do that? Is it like a soughdough starter and it can be refreshed? How should I do that or should I just chunk and start over?

thanks

cameron

[HungryC]

What ratio of flour:water:yeast did you use in the poolish? I routinely keep my poolish or biga overnight in the fridge; it should be fine for 8-18 hours under refrigeration, based on info from Peter Reinhart's baking books.

[Cameron Smith]

What ratio of flour:water:yeast did you use in the poolish?  I routinely keep my poolish or biga overnight in the fridge; it should be fine for 8-18 hours under refrigeration, based on info from Peter Reinhart's baking books.

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What should I do before I use it, just bring it up to room temp?

[tino27]

No worries, I do this all the time. If I am going to be baking when I get home from work, I will do my poolish in the morning and let it sit out in a covered container. If I get home from work late or just don't have time to bake, I simply chuck it in the fridge. It will last a couple of days in there (I've never gone beyond 48 hours in the fridge). To use, take out and sit on a counter for about an hour or so to take the chill off. Then use as normal.

[Cameron Smith]

Thanks guys, I set the poolish out for an hour before using it and it seemed to work well.

Here are the results from tonights attempt at a baguette along with a couple of artisan loaves- they were really bad!

That looks nothing like a baguette. And I am still having problems with my artisan bread. My baguette dough was so loose it was silly. I used this recipe.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5341/bad-boy-poolish

I dont have a scale so I approximated using conversions, baked on a stone, electric oven.

I still can't get my artisan crumb to open up all the way. It's nice but could be better. I can't be hydration, the dough is silly wet. Maybe its overproofed then doesn't get the over spring?

Baguettes may be out of my league for now.

Cameron

[tino27]

A couple of things:

First, post larger pictures next time (they don't have to be mega huge). It's kind of hard to see some of the smaller details on the photos you posted. (That really has nothing to do with the bread, of course).

Second, I bake on a stone in an electric oven, too. You will have to get used to baking in whatever oven you use, gas or electric, yours or someone else's. It just takes time and patience and a couple of batches of bread.

Third, if at all possible, spend that $30 on a digital scale accurate to 1 gram. It will be one of the best investments for making consistent bread. Almost all digitals scales nowadays will measure in both grams (my preferences) or ounces.

Fourth, I looked at the recipe you linked to. I normally do my French style breads at 70% overall hydration. That being said, that is a very wet dough and it can be tricky to work with. There's no reason you can't start with a dryer dough to get the feel of it and then add more water until you get it to where you want it. I would suggest in your case removing 1 ounce of water from the final dough (leave the poolish as it is listed). This will drop the final hydration from 66% down a bit. You may sacrifice some of the bigger holes, but the benefit is that you get dough you can work with. Other than that, the recipe looks fairly solid and not far from what I use.

Fifth, what kind of white flour are you using? What brand? The recipe you linked to says "white flour" which can be interpreted to mean All Purpose flour. That being said, All Purpose flours run a range of protein levels that can severely mess with your results. Gold Medal AP flour is different than King Arthur AP flour. The higher the protein content, the more water the dough can absorb. That's why it's always best to use a recipe as a jumping off point. You're going to have to adjust it to make it your own. Pick a manufacturer and stick with them. Buying whatever is on sale that week is the surest way of having too much variation in the final product. That said, I personally prefer King Arthur flours as they tend to be very consistent from batch to batch. You don't necessarily need to use "Bread Flour", but I've used both AP and Bread flours from KA and they both work beautifully. Bread flour has a higher protein content than AP flour, so more water is needed than the same amount (by weight) of AP flour.

Sixth, what kind of water are you using? Tap? Bottled? With so few ingredients in a loaf of French bread, everything has to be the best it can be. If you are using tap water, is it chlorinated? If you are using city water, most likely it is. Fill up a pitcher with the water from your tap and let it sit overnight. This will let any dissolved chlorine gas escape. Chlorine can hinder the development of the gluten in the dough. Does your tap water even taste good? If it doesn't, don't expect your bread to, either. Personally, my tap water has too many minerals dissolved in it so it has a metallic taste. I buy gallon jugs of water from the supermarket for my breads.

Finally, don't worry too much if your baguettes don't come out well the first couple of batches. Once you slice it up and put it in the bread basket, the only thing people will care about is that it tastes good. You might want to try starting with a simpler shape, like a batard (which is a pre-cursor to a baguette).

A little wordy, I know, but hopefully that gives you a few jumping off points to get started.

[Cameron Smith]

A couple of things:

First, post larger pictures next time (they don't have to be mega huge). It's kind of hard to see some of the smaller details on the photos you posted. (That really has nothing to do with the bread, of course).

Second, I bake on a stone in an electric oven, too. You will have to get used to baking in whatever oven you use, gas or electric, yours or someone else's. It just takes time and patience and a couple of batches of bread.

Third, if at all possible, spend that $30 on a digital scale accurate to 1 gram. It will be one of the best investments for making consistent bread. Almost all digitals scales nowadays will measure in both grams (my preferences) or ounces.

Fourth, I looked at the recipe you linked to. I normally do my French style breads at 70% overall hydration. That being said, that is a very wet dough and it can be tricky to work with. There's no reason you can't start with a dryer dough to get the feel of it and then add more water until you get it to where you want it. I would suggest in your case removing 1 ounce of water from the final dough (leave the poolish as it is listed). This will drop the final hydration from 66% down a bit. You may sacrifice some of the bigger holes, but the benefit is that you get dough you can work with. Other than that, the recipe looks fairly solid and not far from what I use.

Fifth, what kind of white flour are you using? What brand? The recipe you linked to says "white flour" which can be interpreted to mean All Purpose flour. That being said, All Purpose flours run a range of protein levels that can severely mess with your results. Gold Medal AP flour is different than King Arthur AP flour. The higher the protein content, the more water the dough can absorb. That's why it's always best to use a recipe as a jumping off point. You're going to have to adjust it to make it your own. Pick a manufacturer and stick with them. Buying whatever is on sale that week is the surest way of having too much variation in the final product. That said, I personally prefer King Arthur flours as they tend to be very consistent from batch to batch. You don't necessarily need to use "Bread Flour", but I've used both AP and Bread flours from KA and they both work beautifully. Bread flour has a higher protein content than AP flour, so more water is needed than the same amount (by weight) of AP flour.

Sixth, what kind of water are you using? Tap? Bottled? With so few ingredients in a loaf of French bread, everything has to be the best it can be. If you are using tap water, is it chlorinated? If you are using city water, most likely it is. Fill up a pitcher with the water from your tap and let it sit overnight. This will let any dissolved chlorine gas escape. Chlorine can hinder the development of the gluten in the dough. Does your tap water even taste good? If it doesn't, don't expect your bread to, either. Personally, my tap water has too many minerals dissolved in it so it has a metallic taste. I buy gallon jugs of water from the supermarket for my breads.

Finally, don't worry too much if your baguettes don't come out well the first couple of batches. Once you slice it up and put it in the bread basket, the only thing people will care about is that it tastes good. You might want to try starting with a simpler shape, like a batard (which is a pre-cursor to a baguette).

A little wordy, I know, but hopefully that gives you a few jumping off points to get started.

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Tino,

thanks, I really appreciate your thoughts. Noted on picture size, I lean towards smaller pics for message boards but i'll beef up. Really want a scale, will get one in the next month for sure. Anyone have any recommendations? Glad, the recipe looks solid, I'll stick with it and just adjust if needed. I am using Gold Medal unbleached AP flour. My water is reverse osmosis filtered as West Texas water is really hard and tastes like milk. Thanks for the encouragement. I'll try batards next time.

Cameron

[Tom Gengo]

Sixth, what kind of water are you using? Tap? Bottled? With so few ingredients in a loaf of French bread, everything has to be the best it can be. If you are using tap water, is it chlorinated? If you are using city water, most likely it is. Fill up a pitcher with the water from your tap and let it sit overnight. This will let any dissolved chlorine gas escape. Chlorine can hinder the development of the gluten in the dough. Does your tap water even taste good? If it doesn't, don't expect your bread to, either. Personally, my tap water has too many minerals dissolved in it so it has a metallic taste. I buy gallon jugs of water from the supermarket for my breads.

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One point to keep in mind is that some municipalities use chloramide rather than chorine for the chlorination of the drinking water. Chloramide does not dissolve out of the water and will affect the yeast activity.

[MikeJ]

I would also use some flash in the pics, or take them somewhere where there's either a little natural light or better artificial light.

[Cameron Smith]

I would also use some flash in the pics, or take them somewhere where there's either a little natural light or better artificial light.

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Mike, totally agree. I've got a similar camera as you d40x (followed your other thread). It was night time and didnt feel like setting up lighting.

With my reverse osmosis filter under the sink, the water I get is pretty pure i think.

[Cameron Smith]

Alright, I've slept on it. Here's my next plan of attack. I am going to keep the recipe and make the changes tino suggested. Since the dough came out so wet, I am going to try to use my KA for mixing and kneading and see if I can't produce a better looking dough. If this doesn't work then I may just wait until I get a scale and try again.

I will try to document with pics my next attempt.

thanks guys

cameron

[tino27]

If you are using your KitchenAid to mix and knead the dough, the proper hydration level for a French bread dough would be when the dough pulls away from the sides and the bottom of the bowl as it is spinning around. For me, the flour is the constant. I always add what the recipe calls for. The water is the variable ingredient. Measure out what you think you'll need and use as much as you actually need to get the right consistency. Depending on the age and strength of the flour as well as the humidity in your kitchen, you may need all the water you measured or less (or sometimes more).

Also, you may want to employ a hybrid kneading method where you do 80% of the kneading in the stand mixer and then finish by hand on your counter. This will also help you judge exactly how wet or dry the dough is and make any final adjustments.

Good luck!

Edited February 20, 2009 by tino27 (log)

[Cameron Smith]

If you are using your KitchenAid to mix and knead the dough, the proper hydration level for a French bread dough would be when the dough pulls away from the sides and the bottom of the bowl as it is spinning around. For me, the flour is the constant. I always add what the recipe calls for. The water is the variable ingredient. Measure out what you think you'll need and use as much as you actually need to get the right consistency. Depending on the age and strength of the flour as well as the humidity in your kitchen, you may need all the water you measured or less (or sometimes more).

Also, you may want to employ a hybrid kneading method where you do 80% of the kneading in the stand mixer and then finish by hand on your counter. This will also help you judge exactly how wet or dry the dough is and make any final adjustments.

Good luck!

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thanks tino, I think i will do that, save 20% for hand kneading, i like that part anyway.

[HungryC]

I set out the chilled biga/poolish at least an hour before using. Enough time to take the chill off; it can be helpful to cut/spoon/scoop it into pieces so it warms a little faster & mixes easier.

I am a huge fan of extremely wet doughs, and I wouldn't for a minute try to hand-knead them. If you're after a holey, open crumb, wetter is better (think ciabatta--it is practically a batter). I knead in a KA pro mixer with the pigtail dough hook; works like a charm, saves my back & arms, and results in well-kneaded doughs. Don't be afraid to *really* knead wet doughs...knead 'til you get strong windowpaning, regardless of the time instructions in the recipe. I know that many folks love hand-kneading, but it's just not possible for high-hydration doughs like pizza bianca.

Also, keeping the dough cool (using ice water to mix dough) and going for a cold, overnight ferment may improve your french bread. Aforementioned Reinhart has good instructions in his books (I believe he calls it pain l'ancienne?, don't have the book at my fingertips)