Le Bernardin vs Per Se

[WK2]

I've eaten at both in the past year, though not as often as some of the others. I preferred Per Se, for a couple of reasons. Tasting menus at both.

1) I find Ripert's cuisine a little too clean, a little too surgical. As paradoxical as it is to call 3-star food gritty, I thought PS's food had a little more edge.

2) I love fish. But fish after fish after fish at Le Bernardin became tiresome, to my surprise.

3) The service at PS was seamless, whereas I had a few minor niggles at Le Bernardin.

4) I like the room at PS better.

On PS versus France, I have to say that the 1 star restaurants in Provence I dined at this summer were as good or better than Le Bernardin, while PS is better than they are. I have not had the Parisian 3 star experience, though.

[sethd]

funny i have never seen ripert in the dining room.  i have never seen aldo sohm smile.  actually, come to think of it, i can't remember anyone smiling at le bernardin.  i feel like we are going to different restaurants?

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I know I have been going to Le Bernardin; you chefboy, I don't know were you are going. I have been going to Le Bernardin consistently since Sept 4, 2001 and I have seen Ripert every time I have eaten there and have been personally greeted by him at all my meals (mostly lunches)during the last 4-5 years. I have many friends who have eaten at Le Bernardin and will second the warm personality of Aldo Sohm. I am surprised, that you, chef boy, continue to return to a restaurant that you clearly don't enjoy. It brings up another intersting topic of discussion. What makes one return to a restaurat often compared to others in the city?

[sickchangeup]

i feel like we are going to different restaurants?

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As one moderately famous FatGuy wrote, it's cause you are!

sethd: If you've been going there monthly for 7+ years, you aren't exactly the model profile for how service will be for the initiator of this thread. And it's somewhat self-evident that you do get that service, or else why would you still be going back that often?

Personally, I go to LeB annually, every year on the same date for 4 years now. I don't expect any special treatment, and due to the gap am not surprised that I have never gotten a welcome back or felt anything "warm" from the front of the house. That's probably because for my part, LeB is very technical in it's service, that's how I've grown to perceive them. The butter get's replaced before you reach the half-way mark of the last pat every time. I notice cause it kills me to think it's going to waste, and I want to whisk that last butter semi-pat out and give it a good home before it runs away. The plates and silverware are whisked away. Your wine is delivered and poured beautifully. This is all above reproach in my mind. But in my experience neither the room nor the service/servers/bus boys/sommeliers are "warm", there are no smiles, it's all very efficient and technical.

Now I don't mind this at all personally, I don't consider it a detriment cause the service is technically tip top. But at the same time, I'd be amiss if I didn't point out that it's simply not comparable to Per Se (who is?), where everything is technical AND warm, where they go the extra mile to accommodate, then go another mile after that to make you feel very well taken care of.

I'm going to LeB in 2 weeks actually, breaking my annual gap spell - I guess we'll see :-)

[chefboy24]

i go back because i feel like i'm crazy that i don't love le bernardin. i want to love le bernardin. and i get bored of jean georges and emp (believe it or not!)

the more interesting topic is how different should a restaurant treat regulars than first time guests? shouldn't a first time guest be the most important?? i think so.

a buddy of mine was a captain at le bernardin and he told me that section 1 (the section closest to the front door) is where they put new service staff...they try to slam you with tables so you can prove yourself. i think that's disgusting. they put "rifraff" guests in the back near the back wall closest to the bathrooms and this rifraff gets the weaker waiters.

i for one think its horrible to treat guests so differently and to slam a new waiter so he can prove himself. kind of ridiculous. you can see if a waiter is good or not in about a week, slamming him just messes up service.

regulars should get the tables they like, but having a section for new guys, having a section for regulars, and having a section for the playbill holding ohio crowd is messed up if you ask me.

Edited February 3, 2009 by chefboy24 (log)

[Felonius]

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It brings up another intersting topic of discussion. What makes one return to a restaurat often compared to others in the city?

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For me it's simple, SERVICE. I of course do not dine at restaurants where I don't enjoy the food, and I do occasionally visit restaurants with mediocre service solely for the particular food they have on offer. I never return to a restaurant with bad service, unless I think there was a legitimate reason for the bad service.

However, since I dine out 4-6 nights a week, I have a number of "regular" places. Some of them are high end, some low end. Some have incredible food, some are just reliable standard fare. The common denominator is their attitude and service. A place that takes time to make me feel welcome, to go that extra mile, will earn my loyalty. There are two small and inexpensive neighborhood Italian places where the owners are always there, and always come out to give me a warm welcome - as if I was a guest in their homes. I'm not a difficult customer, but if I do have an occasional special request (usually craving something they make, but not on the current menu) they accomodate it and appear pleased to do so. There are other higher end places, where they give me my favorite table if possible, and always comp a drink or an extra pour of something. If I am having a hard time deciding between menu items I'll ask the waiter for a recommendation. Many times, to my delight, a tasting portion of the option I didn't choose will arrive gratis.

So when I am on the fence about where to eat, I usually jump on the friendly side. I also recommend these places to friends and associates, and try to do what little bit I can to help their business prosper.

I still like to try new places and expand my eating universe, but I have a hard time visiting any place if they make me feel as if I'm no more than a revenue source.

[Felonius]

the more interesting topic is how different should a restaurant treat regulars than first time guests?  shouldn't a first time guest be the most important?? i think so.

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I think all guests should be treated with equal professionalism and the best service possible. That's not rocket science, just good business.

I do appreciate a few extra "perks" (the best table, a comped course or glass of wine, etc.) and see nothing wrong with this. That is also just good business - letting a regular customer know that you appreciate their loyalty.

I used to eat out fairly regularly at Jean-Georges and Le Bernardin. I never had less than professional and efficient service, yet I was also never greeted personally, recognized or given anything extra. I love the food at both, and I am perfectly happy with the service. However, I have never felt the same loyalty to them as I have to other places where they added that personal touch (Cafe Boulud when Andrew Carmellini was chef is a good example, as were all the Alain Ducasse restaurants - ADNY, Mix, and now Benoit). I have frequented those places far more often.

[sethd]

I understand that as a regular customer at Le Bernardin ( as well as Per Se, Jean Georges, and Adour) that I will be treated differently from a first time guest and that my observations regarding food and service at the above restaurants must be understood with that in mind. I think that restaurants should take special care of returning guests and regular customers. However, I was a first time guest at Le Bernardin once: I remember being quite apprehensive prior to my first time there (on sept 4th, 2001), especially since I was going as a single diner. Fortunately, I was treated immediately as a valued customer and I decided quite early during my meal that I would return. Similarly, I haven't returned to many restaurants, including EMP, Le Cirque, Cafe Boulud, Gordon Ramsey, and Daniel, largely because of horrific service issues. In fact, the only restaurant I have returned after a bad first experience was ADNY. My first meal there (a lunch the year it opened) was a disaster on many fronts. I waited a year and returned,, largely because I couldn't imagine having a bad meal at a Ducasse restaurant, and had a wonderfull meal and became a regular.

For me, a fine dining experience must included superb food, wonderful service, and a pleasant, albeit, more formal atmosphere. That is why I continue eating at Le Bernardin, Per Se, Jean Georges, and Adour. I have never had a food or service mishap (the wine pouring instance at Le B not withstanding) during my over 1000 meals there. I expect that my good fortune will continue.

[EoPandaBear]

I decided on Le Bernardin only because I've been to French Laundry so we'll see how it goes!

I'm going to Paris in May for 2 weeks and haven't decided on my splurge meal. The problem is that I've read a lot about consistency issues at the restaurants. I'm actually considering going for lunch this time around...maybe Le Cinq. I went to Lyon a few years ago and visited Paul Bocuse. It was like Disneyland (ick). His truffle soup almost made the dinner worthwhile but the rest of the experience was blah.

[BryanZ]

If you want a ridiculous survey of what's going on at the top level of Paris fine-dining I highly suggest you check out ulterior epicure's Flickr stream. He recently returned from a trip to Europe and the photo documentation there is, to put it lightly, epic.

[lhollers]

I'll second that - as a frequent lurker on ulterior epicure's photos, I can attest to the fact that he really has outdone himself with this trip...stunningly beautiful photography combined with the typical fantastic food reviews and write-ups. This would be a great source to consult if you were planning a trip to France with a splurge meal in mind...

[EoPandaBear]

If you want a ridiculous survey of what's going on at the top level of Paris fine-dining I highly suggest you check out ulterior epicure's Flickr stream.  He recently returned from a trip to Europe and the photo documentation there is, to put it lightly, epic.

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I've seen his pictures. It looks like he's using a SLR with remote flash. I bring a camera with me too but am sheepish about it so it's this tiny digital camera. I end up sneaking a pic like it's a crime *laughing*

[BryanZ]

I recommend you drop by his Flickr stream again. This trip we're referring to added quite a bit.

UE might chime in here, but he does use a DSLR with no flash. Different thread, but flash is a no-no in my world.

[sygyzy]

I recommend you drop by his Flickr stream again.  This trip we're referring to added quite a bit.

UE might chime in here, but he does use a DSLR with no flash.  Different thread, but flash is a no-no in my world.

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...in anyone's world.

[ulterior epicure]

I recommend you drop by his Flickr stream again.  This trip we're referring to added quite a bit.

UE might chime in here, but he does use a DSLR with no flash.  Different thread, but flash is a no-no in my world.

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Thanks for all of your kind words. I'll confirm BryanZ's statement above and agree with his no-flash sentiments.

EoPandaBear - I will be the dissenting member of the board here and put in a vote for Le Bernardin over per se. Admittedly, I don't have as much experience at either restaurant as many others here do. But I preferred my two experiences at Le Bernardin to my two at per se. If you're curious, read about my latest meals at each, here (Le Bernardin 2008) and here (per se 2008). For me, neither restaurant provided heart-racing excitement. But Le Bernardin has (both times) left me with a feeling that I got a very solid and steady meal, whereas per se has (both times) felt a bit hollow.

As to the other topics being thrown about (I quickly skimmed through):

1. Agreed, le Bernardin's staff does have more trouble with English than per se's, but so do most Americans, so I figure it works out fine. My first visit to Le Bernardin (2004) was a bit frustrating in that respect, but my second visit (2008) was just fine.

2. Staff members were smiling both at per se and Le Bernardin.

3. I would agree that the fringe tables at Le Bernardin are less well-positioned than the worst tables at per se. Actually, there are no bad tables at per se save, perhaps, the first couple inside the door. But those two are still way better than the ones near the entrance at le Bernardin or the ones at the far back of Le Bernardin, near the hallway to the restrooms and Salon.

4. For the record I saw Eric Ripert both times I was at Le Bernardin. Keller was not at per se either time I was there. Neither was he at The French Laundry when I ate there (2006). But, I'll be the first to say: at this level, it doesn't (and shouldn't) matter.

5. It was a Supreme Court Justice (I think Stewart) who said he knows porn when he sees it, not a Senator, if I'm not mistaken.

6. chefboy24 - It makes me sad that you've not had an experience to your liking at Le Bernardin. The same goes for sickchangeup at Eleven Madison Park. Those are two of my favorite restaurants in New York City.

7. Given that I named le Bernardin my best meal of 2008 (before it was eclipsed by an eleventh hour meal at The Sportsman in December), I'm wondering if Bruni and I are more similar in tastes than I would care to admit?

8. EoPandaBear - as to your trip to France in May, throw out a line on that forum and I'll be happy to jump in. But, I'll just say here: my recent meal at le Cinq was less than thrilling, which leaves me terribly confused given the raves that Briffard gets from certain sectors. I'm still slogging through my reviews. I'll get it posted... one of these days.

9. EoPandaBear - and, yes, I'll agree that l'Auberge de Pont de Collonges is a bit of a theme park. But, it is the original theme park and I enjoyed my meal there.

Edited February 4, 2009 by ulterior epicure (log)

[sickchangeup]

4. For the record I saw Eric Ripert both times I was at Le Bernardin.  Keller was not at per se either time I was there.  Neither was he at The French Laundry when I ate there (2006).  But, I'll be the first to say: at this level, it doesn't (and shouldn't) matter.

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I see your note about it not mattering, but while I'm maybe in the minority (or entirely mistaken), I don't think of Keller as the chef of Per Se at all. It's Benno's menu every single night, he's in the kitchen all the time, and at a place where going off menu can lead to the truest pleasure, this matters a great deal. I only make this distinction because at 99% of "Chef" owned restaurants (including a couple of Keller's), the Chef de Cuisine is pretty much just executing someone else's menu (save perhaps a special here or there), which isn't what's happening at Per Se. It's a Benno restaurant in my eyes.

The same goes for sickchangeup at Eleven Madison Park.

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Don't think that was me, I like the place a lot and have never had less than a great time eating there. In fact, I have a reservation there for my birthday dinner as we speak (just have to convince my wife that a Gourmand menu won't literally kill her... I don't think...)

[ulterior epicure]

4. For the record I saw Eric Ripert both times I was at Le Bernardin.  Keller was not at per se either time I was there.  Neither was he at The French Laundry when I ate there (2006).  But, I'll be the first to say: at this level, it doesn't (and shouldn't) matter.

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I see your note about it not mattering, but while I'm maybe in the minority (or entirely mistaken), I don't think of Keller as the chef of Per Se at all. It's Benno's menu every single night, he's in the kitchen all the time, and at a place where going off menu can lead to the truest pleasure, this matters a great deal. I only make this distinction because at 99% of "Chef" owned restaurants (including a couple of Keller's), the Chef de Cuisine is pretty much just executing someone else's menu (save perhaps a special here or there), which isn't what's happening at Per Se. It's a Benno restaurant in my eyes.

That may be true. But I'll wager that a good half of the dishes served at per se are Keller classics.

Also, after having read "On The Line," the latest book published by Ripert about Le Bernardin, it seems that the chef de cuisine, Chris Muller, is every bit a part of the creation process as Ripert is.

So, again, I come back to: it really doesn't (and shouldn't) matter if the guy with the biggest name is in.

The same goes for sickchangeup at Eleven Madison Park.

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Don't think that was me, I like the place a lot and have never had less than a great time eating there. In fact, I have a reservation there for my birthday dinner as we speak (just have to convince my wife that a Gourmand menu won't literally kill her... I don't think...)

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Sorry, my mistake - it was sethd.

Edited February 4, 2009 by ulterior epicure (log)

[chefboy24]

hey ue -

i have a res for lunch this weekend at per se, wanna join me? hit me up on gmail.

[chefboy24]

I decided on Le Bernardin only because I've been to French Laundry so we'll see how it goes! 

I'm going to Paris in May for 2 weeks and haven't decided on my splurge meal.  The problem is that I've read a lot about consistency issues at the restaurants.  I'm actually considering going for lunch this time around...maybe Le Cinq.  I went to Lyon a few years ago and visited Paul Bocuse.  It was like Disneyland (ick).  His truffle soup almost made the dinner worthwhile but the rest of the experience was blah.

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please. i'm begging you. i've never been to the french laundry either. please just go to per se. you'll thank me.

[ulterior epicure]

I decided on Le Bernardin only because I've been to French Laundry so we'll see how it goes! 

I'm going to Paris in May for 2 weeks and haven't decided on my splurge meal.  The problem is that I've read a lot about consistency issues at the restaurants.  I'm actually considering going for lunch this time around...maybe Le Cinq.  I went to Lyon a few years ago and visited Paul Bocuse.  It was like Disneyland (ick).  His truffle soup almost made the dinner worthwhile but the rest of the experience was blah.

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please. i'm begging you. i've never been to the french laundry either. please just go to per se. you'll thank me.

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Save yourself some dignity.

Edited February 4, 2009 by ulterior epicure (log)

[jdanton]

I'm going to be dining at both Per Se and Le Bernardin in March. I'll file a report here--I've dined at Per Se and Jean Georges, but not LB..

PS will be private dining this time, but that shouldn't matter.

[jayvalle42]

Sometime in August/September i am looking to go to one of the two - I will be doing the tasting menu. The question is which restaurant (i am trying to take into account that Le Bernardin's lease is due in 2011 (i know thats a bit off from now) and that Benno is perhaps leaving Per Se soon) and should i go with the wine pairing or by the bottle? Thanks Jay

[oakapple]

Sometime in August/September i am looking to go to one of the two - I will be doing the tasting menu. The question is which restaurant (i am trying to take into account that Le Bernardin's lease is due in 2011 (i know thats a bit off from now) and that Benno is perhaps leaving Per Se soon) and should i go with the wine pairing or by the bottle? Thanks Jay

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No one can answer this question for you, and anyone who claims they can is wrong. They are both superb, internationally recognized restaurants. For either one, you can easily find plenty of reviews by people who were absolutely blown away, along with a minority who say the opposite.

Per Se is materially more expensive, as its only option at dinner is a $275 menu, whereas Le Bernardin offers tasting menus at both $135 and $185 ($220 and $325 respectively with wine pairings). The price at Per Se includes service, so you really need to inflate the LeB prices by 20% for comparison purposes.

There are no set wine pairings at Per Se, but you can count on $100 per person as the floor, and it goes up from there. A sommelier will design a pairing for you after discussing your budget and preferences. As far as I know, Per Se is the only restaurant in town where this is the default offering (plenty of others will do it if you ask). For this reason, the wine pairing at Per Se is especially worthwhile, and even at relatively inexpensive levels you will probably get a couple of unusual items you never would have thought to order.

The food at Le Bernardin is more homogeneous, so it arguably lends itself better to ordering by the bottle. If you order the more expensive tasting menu, the wine pairing is $140pp. For the same price, you could order a couple of terrific contrasting half-bottles, or a single "blow-the-doors-off" full bottle, and perhaps still be ahead. That, again, is a choice only you can make.

Edited July 10, 2009 by oakapple (log)

[WK2]

I think the threshold question here is what's in oakapple's last paragraph. LB is a bit of an odd duck, as it serves only fish and shellfish (so far as I know) in its tasting menu. To my mind, it's a very focused meal. Surgical (as I think I may even have said somewhere in this thread). Very great, but utterly precise and walking a sort of line with antiseptic.

Per Se is very different - a much more traditional progression, light to heavier, a nicer room, maybe even a little more formal for me. But the difference between the two comes down to what you want to spend, and what you want to eat. I think in terms of objective quality they're playing the same game.

Sometime in August/September i am looking to go to one of the two - I will be doing the tasting menu. The question is which restaurant (i am trying to take into account that Le Bernardin's lease is due in 2011 (i know thats a bit off from now) and that Benno is perhaps leaving Per Se soon) and should i go with the wine pairing or by the bottle? Thanks Jay

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No one can answer this question for you, and anyone who claims they can is wrong. They are both superb, internationally recognized restaurants. For either one, you can easily find plenty of reviews by people who were absolutely blown away, along with a minority who say the opposite.

Per Se is materially more expensive, as its only option at dinner is a $275 menu, whereas Le Bernardin offers tasting menus at both $135 and $185 ($220 and $325 respectively with wine pairings). The price at Per Se includes service, so you really need to inflate the LeB prices by 20% for comparison purposes.

There are no set wine pairings at Per Se, but you can count on $100 per person as the floor, and it goes up from there. A sommelier will design a pairing for you after discussing your budget and preferences. As far as I know, Per Se is the only restaurant in town where this is the default offering (plenty of others will do it if you ask). For this reason, the wine pairing at Per Se is especially worthwhile, and even at relatively inexpensive levels you will probably get a couple of unusual items you never would have thought to order.

The food at Le Bernardin is more homogeneous, so it arguably lends itself better to ordering by the bottle. If you order the more expensive tasting menu, the wine pairing is $140pp. For the same price, you could order a couple of terrific contrasting half-bottles, or a single "blow-the-doors-off" full bottle, and perhaps still be ahead. That, again, is a choice only you can make.

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[Bobster]

Like WK2 said, Le Bernardin is more a sea place (not that that's wrong by any means).

Question: are you going by yourself or with others? That can play on the wine decisions as well.

I've gone to both usually by myself; I've blabbed on here before how when I was last at PerSe I had an expert wine pairing where it was a glass/portion that lasted several courses.

Also both places have their menus readily available for you to peruse (PerSe's are from last night's). PerSe's menu of course is more seasonally adapted as well.

PS I'm going back to PerSe this Tuesday yay! And I was told that Chef Benno will be around thru the winter.

[ellenost]

PS  I'm going back to PerSe this Tuesday yay!  And I was told that Chef Benno will be around thru the winter.

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Great news about Chef Benno; I'm having a special birthday celebration at Per Se next month, and I'm so happy that Chef Benno will still be at Per Se (of course Chef Keller will ensure that whoever is at the helm will be wonderful!).