Selecting Nakiri Knives

[Chris Amirault]

I'm thinking that my one gift this year for Christmas is a nakiri knife, a vegetable prep knife with a thin blade. I'm a long-time chef's knife user and have a large Wusthof classic that's over 20 years old that's my workhorse. I also have a Shun Ken Onion chef's knife about which I've posted my agita, which I'm glad to report has reduced significantly.

However, I'm realizing that I do a ton of vegetable prep and would really like to have a knife with a straight edge. Thus I've been looking at this Shun Classic nakiri, though with a bit of trepidation. I'm a lefty who likes the D-shaped handle on the Classics (even though it's "backwards") but I've got big hands and don't want something too small. I think that I can try out one of these knives at William Sonoma locally, but want a few other options. In particular, since this knife is likely to be used a lot, I'm thinking that I might want something I can sharpen easily with my Edge Pro (I dare not touch the Shun with it at this point), and thus have been considering other brands.

I'm eager to hear your thoughts on these knives. Anyone with big hands have one and like it? What should I be looking at and for? Do you sharpen yours?

[mtigges]

Um, why are you scared of taking your shun to the edge pro? You are talking about this edgepro right?

As for alternatives, see japanese-knife or japanesechefsknife. Both of those sites have a large selection of knifes across a wide budget.

Have you thought about mac?

I have small hands, so I can't comment on that. I have a shun santoku and have no qualms using my edgepro apex to sharpen it. I use a ceramic hone to keep it in shape.

[Chris Amirault]

You're emboldening me about taking the Edge Pro to the Shun. But back to the nakiri knives.

Does anyone have experience with this 18 cm Brieto nakiri? Or this 16.5 cm Hattori HD nakiri? Or this Tojiro DP nakiri?

And how should one approach shopping for a knife that one cannot hold in one's hands?

ETA the Tojiro -- CA

Edited December 1, 2008 by chrisamirault (log)

[rmillman]

Tha nakiri is now one of my favorites to use. I first bought the Gekko from JKD (around $80) to get a feel for the shape and then sprung for a Kazuyuki Tanaka knife from them in R2 steel after it became clear that this is a good shape for me.

[Chris Amirault]

The one down the page here?

[rmillman]

yes: and the maker of the r2 knives is also on that page but I guess they do not have one of his nakiris.

[Hard H2O]

I am partial to my Shun Wasabi Nakiri. I would go for it if you have the coin.

I do not understand the trepidation with sharpening the Shun on the Edge Pro. How do you sharpen it? That is the top of the line sharpening gizmo. What do youthink might happen?

[scubadoo97]

A nakiri or santoku would be great for doing julienne and dices. I still like a pointed tip which the nakiri doesn't have but some santokus retain.

Chris, the only thing you need to be careful with when putting the Shun or any nice knife on the Edgepro is to tape up the sides so they don't get scratched. Don't be afraid to sharpen it. You will be amazed at the difference, even for your Shun.

[Octaveman]

And how should one approach shopping for a knife that one cannot hold in one's hands?

Find a retailer with good pictures. Call them to ask questions. Ask them to choose the knife with best handle quality (fit and finish). Don't like it, return it. Keep in mind that if you get a Nakiri that has a small Japanese style handle it's real easy to get it rehandled with a bigger one. Much more difficult and costly to do that with a western handled knife.

Here are my sugestions all of which I think are fine knives with good reputations.

Kansui Dojo

Yoshikane

Kumagoro

Togiharu

Tanaka

edited to add one more suggestion.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Octaveman, thanks -- and why those? What criteria do you use? I have read some recommendations for the Tojiro knife around the net. Opinions?

In re sharpening the Shun, I haven't been able to find reliable bevel measurements for sharpening that KO chef's knife, and apparently the Shun folks aren't too keen on sharing. If someone has that information, please PM me off this topic. Thanks!

[Hard H2O]

Octaveman, thanks -- and why those? What criteria do you use? I have read some recommendations for the Tojiro knife around the net. Opinions?

In re sharpening the Shun, I haven't been able to find reliable bevel measurements for sharpening that KO chef's knife, and apparently the Shun folks aren't too keen on sharing. If someone has that information, please PM me off this topic. Thanks!

←

Have you heard of the sharpie method for determining the bevel angles?

You mark the edge bevels with a sharpie. Then you sharpen a bit. Depending upon where the sharpie is removed tells you whether you are at too high or too low of an angle. It works like a charm.

I do not get to caught up with sticking to factory angles. Blades can normally benefit by sharper edge bevel angles. I usually let the blade, slicing, cutting, and steel type lead me to the angle that the knife can support.

[Octaveman]

Octaveman, thanks -- and why those? What criteria do you use? I have read some recommendations for the Tojiro knife around the net. Opinions?

In re sharpening the Shun, I haven't been able to find reliable bevel measurements for sharpening that KO chef's knife, and apparently the Shun folks aren't too keen on sharing. If someone has that information, please PM me off this topic. Thanks!

That's the beauty of do it yourself sharpening...you can make the bevel angles anything you want. If your goal is to keep the original angles then H20's suggestion for using the sharpie is best. Or you could lightly use a course stone, take one swipe and see where it landed. Adjust angle if necessary and do it again until you've hit the angle you desire then get to work on the rest of the knife. Yeah, big corporations are way too busy to actually answer the questions of us peasants. One of the reasons I try to avoid them if at all possible. My personal way of sticking it the man.

My criteria? Hmmm, in this case it's based purely on reputation of the brands. I know how well each are made, edge retention, build quality, etc. The only thing I don't know is actual performance which is essentially determined by blade geometry from spine to edge. But chances are all of them will perform equally. The Kansui has a tough carbon steel core clad with stainless. The Yoshikane is made from tool steel so very strong and durable. The Kumagoro is basically the carbon steel equivalent to the Yoshi. The Togiharu will have nice fit and finish but it is much softer than the others so edge retentioin wouldn't be as good. Personally I would take the Tojiro over this one though. The Tanaka is, well, just beautiful.

[Chris Amirault]

I've moved the Ken Onion discussion over here.

Octaveman said,

My criteria? Hmmm, in this case it's based purely on reputation of the brands. I know how well each are made, edge retention, build quality, etc. The only thing I don't know is actual performance which is essentially determined by blade geometry from spine to edge. But chances are all of them will perform equally. The Kansui has a tough carbon steel core clad with stainless. The Yoshikane is made from tool steel so very strong and durable. The Kumagoro is basically the carbon steel equivalent to the Yoshi. The Togiharu will have nice fit and finish but it is much softer than the others so edge retentioin wouldn't be as good. Personally I would take the Tojiro over this one though. The Tanaka is, well, just beautiful.

So for a user who thinks these are all stunning, expects to use the knife five or six times a week, can spend in the range of all, and wants to sharpen it every 4-6 months max: the winner is...?

[Octaveman]

So for a user who thinks these are all stunning, expects to use the knife five or six times a week, can spend in the range of all, and wants to sharpen it every 4-6 months max: the winner is...?

[Octaveman]

So for a user who thinks these are all stunning, expects to use the knife five or six times a week, can spend in the range of all, and wants to sharpen it every 4-6 months max: the winner is...?

Okay, okay, all kidding aside...your requirements are a tad unrealistic. I'm not aware of any knife used 6 days/week that won't need to be sharpened for 6 months. There are so many factors that come into play how often you'll actually need to sharpen that I can't realistically recommend a knife. Now if you said sharpen every other month with touch-ups every other week then that would be requirements I could work with. Then there's also the issue of whether you want carbon or stainless.

But, if you can afford a Tanaka and obviously want the best then I'd like to throw out another suggestion....Murray Carter. His Nakiri's are notoriously known to be thin high performance knives. You have two lines you could go with...Stainless Fukugozai in Blue Super or his High Grade line which is same material but higher level of finish and handle options. HERE is an example of a SFGZ Nakiri currently on sale. If you don't want this one, call him to place a custom order. Blue Super is more expensive than white but does give a slight advantage in edge retention.

Sooooo, I would say it's between the Tanaka and the Carter. Either one you'd have to wait for since the Tanaka is back ordered. One thing I would do if I was interested in the Tanaka is to send Koki at JCK.com an email and ask if he could get you a Tanaka Nakiri since they also are dealers of his knives.

Did that help your decision? Or do you want a knife right now?

[C. sapidus]

. . . I'm realizing that I do a ton of vegetable prep and would really like to have a knife with a straight edge.

When you say "straight edge", are you referring to the blade profile? If so, many gyutos (including ours) have a pretty straight edge. I use a 240 mm gyuto for chopping vegetables, and definitely prefer the longer blade. The gyuto shape also seems more flexible than that of a nakiri, although the wide blade of a nakiri could be more efficient at scooping up diced onions and such.

. . . since this knife is likely to be used a lot, I'm thinking that I might want something I can sharpen easily with my Edge Pro (I dare not touch the Shun with it at this point) . . .

←

No worries about sharpening Japanese knives on the Edge Pro. With Chad’s course as guidance, we put a 10/15 bevel on our gyutos, sujihiki, and paring knives, and a 20 degree chisel edge on the honesuki. Be brave, and do use blue painter’s tape to protect the finish.

I break out the Edge Pro a few times a year, and touch up the edge with a ceramic “steel” every day or so. Good luck!

[rmillman]

The Tanaka that I have is not what you woukld consider thin (around 3mm) whereas the gekko is closer to 2mm. My wife uses the gekko, I like the weight of the Tanaka.

I use my Tanaka almost daily and keep its edge using a ceramic rod or a 4000/6000 polishing stone weekly and a 800 or 1500 grit stone once every couple of months. The newer ceramic wet stones are quick to wet and 4 or so passes on a side and you are done.

I have gained a better understanding of "sharp" by "learning" the sharpening process and with little effort you can keep your knives to the point of being insane (food will seem to part infront of its touch).

[Octaveman]

I'm assuming the 3mm is spin measurement at the bolster? If so, spine measurements are a small part of the picture. I have a Watanabe gyuto that is 4.5mm at the spine/ferrule but it's damn near the best cutter I own. The taper to the edge (geometry) is what is important. Tanaka is a hand made knife so spine measurement is not a catch-all indicator of a knife's performance. The Tanaka is not too much heavier than the Yoshi or Togiharu or even the Gekko which is 6.7 ounces according to JCK. I'm with you on the weight thing. I like a little weight to my knives too.

Most production knives are fairly consistant from brand to brand so they are pretty predictable but there is the odd one here and there that's slightly different than the others. For the most part, a 2mm spine is pretty standard.

rmillam, could you post some pics? A pic of the heal of the blade as you look down from underneath the handle? A spine shot showing taper to the tip would be good too. I've never known anyone who has one of these and would be nice to see so I know what I'm talking about when I recommend a knife.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[Dave the Cook]

. . . .

Here are my sugestions all of which I think are fine knives with good reputations.

Kansui Dojo

Yoshikane

Kumagoro

Togiharu

Tanaka   

edited to add one more suggestion.

←

I notice that all of these are "double beveled." Two questions: 1) Does that mean beveled on both sides of the blade, or does it indicate a back bevel supporting a primary bevel, but on only one side of the blade? 2) If the former, what's the performance going to be like compared to the Shun, which has a beveled edge on one side, with a hollow-ground back?

[Dr. Teeth]

I'm not the knife expert Bob is, I only have one really high end knife, but it's a nakiri. I do have large hands however and have been very pleased. Let me suggest you look at the Watanabe 180 Kuro-ichi. I had a custom handle put on mine and it's very nice. I'll try to post a picture.

[Octaveman]

1. Nakiri's are double beveled in that they are most likely a ratio 70/30 or 80/20 rather that the typical 50/50 bevel on western knives. They obivously favor the right handed but the thickness behind the edge is so small that any difference to a 50/50 grind is near undetectable. It's rare that a knife will be 95/5 which would imply a small back bevel. Being near flat on the backside is no where near the same thing as a hollow ground knife.

2. The Shun Pro is an Usuba. It is a traditional single beveled knife that is hollow ground on the back side (or should be). The Shun Classic Nakiri is double beveled like all the others above. These knives have a specific purpose that is more geared to a Japanese kitchen. A Nakiri is a veggies knife that can be used quite easily in a western kitchen...actually even in a Japanese kitchen for that matter. They're basically a chef's knife of a different design. With bevels that are 70/30 or 80/20, they still very much perform like a 50/50 blade. I think the only time I've seen issues is when I was making thin slices of potato for a gratin. The knife wanted to rotate a bit. I just adjusted the way I cut and things were fine. Large and dense foods could cause the knife to turn. It just takes a little practice to adjut. It's still nowhere near the effect you'd get with an Usuba. If one finds that it's too much of a problem, change the bevels when you sharpen. No big deal.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[Chris Amirault]

So for a user who thinks these are all stunning, expects to use the knife five or six times a week, can spend in the range of all, and wants to sharpen it every 4-6 months max: the winner is...?

Okay, okay, all kidding aside...your requirements are a tad unrealistic.

Yes, I realize that -- they were hyperbolic. I had just read that New Yorker article about the knives that cut through inch-thick rope, a few beer cans, and then shave your arm hair.

However, there is one condition:

Did that help your decision?  Or do you want a knife right now?

←

Right now -- or, rather, by Christmas. I think that I'm starting to realize that I should spend a little less to see if this the style of knife that I want to have and then upgrade to the superblades later if so. I also am increasingly thinking that I should get a few in my hands before making this decision, but damned if I can find out how or where.

ETA: Not Stoddard's in Chestnut Hill, I'm afraid.

Edited December 5, 2008 by chrisamirault (log)

[Chris Amirault]

I find myself leaning toward the Gekko at JCK.

[Octaveman]

I find myself leaning toward the Gekko at JCK.

←

I think that's a great start

[Chris Amirault]

Thanks, Bob. I made the order. More when it arrives.