The Big NY Dining "blogs"

[Fat Guy]

I don't see it as an all-or-nothing proposition either. But we have people saying Josh is "in those people's pockets," a "shill for Pat Lafreida" (you have said this too), and that he publishes "false information based upon rumors." So the faux-even-handedness of later comments -- oh, I don't mean anything personal against Josh -- rings hollow.

←

I did say that Josh is shilling for Pat LaFreida, in the sense of being so deeply intertwined that what he says is no longer believable.

←

Same reductionism as before. You're casting everybody in the role of the critic, and defining believability in terms of criticism. But Josh is not out to be a critic. He is offering exactly the sort of insider access that critics don't have. In order to do that he needs to go behind the scenes. So yes, there's not an ivory-tower situation. But that doesn't introduce, for me, any concerns that Josh is a shill in any way. Again, I find it pretty easy to disagree with him without resort to questioning his motives. I think he genuinely is enthusiastic about La Freida. Big deal. He's not taking bribes, he's not getting sex, La Freda isn't helping his career. He's just hanging out in the meat locker with the subject of a story, and developing the kinds of professional ties that earn exclusives, access and information. Take it for what it's worth. I don't have to tell you that. It's already what you do. (ETA: Taking it for what it's worth, that is.)

[Sneakeater]

What other area of journalism is allowed to work that way anymore?

Sports used to -- but it would no longer be considered acceptable.

Maybe the gossip columns. But if that's all the food blogs aspire to, then they're beneath contempt.

[Fat Guy]

When was the last time you picked up a food magazine?

[oakapple]

I am not suggesting that it is inappropriate for Josh, or any other journalist, to develop a relationship with sources. But I suspect that if Josh worked for Gourmet, Bon Appetit or Saveur, and he kept showing up week after week with stories about one particular purveyor, with no other purveyor ever included for purposes of comparison, his editors would start to suspect that something was amiss. It does not mean anything actually is amiss, only that a reasonably aware reader would start to doubt that the reporting was valid.

Josh says he's not a critic...but of course he is. The decisions about whom to feature are acts of criticism. And he posts actual "editorial reviews," such as this one.

[slkinsey]

What other area of journalism is allowed to work that way anymore?

Sports used to -- but it would no longer be considered acceptable.

Is this a joke?!

[Sneakeater]

When was the last time you picked up a food magazine?

←

Probably the mid-to-late 1970s.

[Fat Guy]

Josh says he's not a critic...but of course he is. The decisions about whom to feature are acts of criticism. And he posts actual "editorial reviews," such as this one.

←

Yes, many forms of journalism include critical components and criticism can include a lot of reporting. That doesn't mean every journalist has to be Frank Bruni. Although, I imagine that when Josh does those mini reviews he follows the standard Citysearch protocols of paying, not taking comps, etc. At least that's what I had to do six or seven years ago when I wrote some reviews for Citysearch.

[Nathan]

wow...I recall having a similar discussion to this a while back on the Ssam Bar thread.

back then I used the term "shill" to refer to people that were comped at restaurants and then wrote about those meals (whether the comps were disclosed or not...though the latter is certainly more egregious). interesting to see some opinions on the matter change since then. of course, we also saw what happened when some people stopped writing about certain restaurants...they stopped getting comped. as I said then, foodboards and bloggers have become, to a large extent, adjuncts of the restaurant PR industry. at least of the savvier restaurants and firms. don't get me wrong, I love love the Momofuku chain...but Chang was also definitely one of the early adopters of using the foodboards and bloggers as PR (and still one of the best).

I think it is a legitimate and serious issue. (and if you leave NY it's even more acute....foodsites in other places (like OK) seem to often rely upon comps as a matter of course and don't even seem to notice that there might be any question at all concerning the matter.)

as for Ozersky...I kind of see him as a male Andrea Strong...he really does love each place that he writes about....

[oakapple]

Early on, Chowhound had a Draconian approach to what they considered shilling. If you were comped anything, for any reason, the post was deleted.

[Fat Guy]

interesting to see some opinions on the matter change since then.

Which ones and how so?

as for Ozersky...I kind of see him as a male Andrea Strong...

←

I have officially lost my appetite.

[Fat Guy]

if Josh worked for Gourmet, Bon Appetit or Saveur, and he kept showing up week after week with stories about one particular purveyor, with no other purveyor ever included for purposes of comparison, his editors would start to suspect that something was amiss.

←

If a newspaper reporter finds a good story he or she may be encouraged by the editors to write follow-up stories on the same subject. Cutlets is just championing excellence as he sees it. His outlet is a blog that allows for a lot of follow up and pursuit of multiple narratives. It's not like he's posting about La Freida ten times a day. La Freida is one of dozens of story-lines he follows. It's also not clear to me that anybody but La Freida has a similar burger-meat program. If someone else does, I'm sure Cutlets would be thrilled to look into it.

[Sneakeater]

interesting to see some opinions on the matter change since then.

Which ones and how so?

←

Nathan would say mine.

Although, (a) I think amateurs are held to different standards than pros, and (b) I don't see how comp disclosures aren't curative. Nathan's more extreme position was that you almost can't ever write about anyplace you're a regular, no matter what disclosures you make.

[ulterior epicure]

...Nathan's more extreme position was that you almost can't ever write about anyplace you're a regular, no matter what disclosures you make.

Even though that didn't prevent Nathan from posting about places where he was a regular and/or received comps.

[ulterior epicure]

(b) I don't see how comp disclosures aren't curative.

Me neither.

I mean, at the very least, the reader is put "on notice."

[Sneakeater]

I also have to make the point that I initially became a regular at Ssam Bar out of choice, with my own money, before the special treatment started. It isn't like I only went there because they knew me as foodboard poster and called me up one night and said, "come on in and let us comp you."

I'd also note that while Nathan is clearly right that the Momofuku places intentionally play the foodboards, I get treated the same way at Franny's, where all they know about me is that I come in at least once a week (and order A LOT).

Edited March 12, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[ulterior epicure]

I also have to make the point that I initially became a regular at Ssam Bar out of choice, with my own money, before the special treatment started.  It isn't like I only went there because they knew me as foodboard poster and called me up and said, "come on in and let us comp you."

I would argue that, nine times out of ten, that's how most people (and even posters here and elsewhere) come to be regulars at a restaurant.

[oakapple]

To give credit where it's due, this Feedbag post (Le Bernardin vintage dinner) is both credible and informative.

[docsconz]

I'd also note that while Nathan is clearly right that the Momofuku places intentionally play the foodboards, I get treated the same way at Franny's, where all they know about me is that I come in at least once a week (and order A LOT).

←

It's called taking care of one's customers. Good businesses of any stripe do that. For the restaurant business, it doesn't matter whether one is a blogger, board poster or simply a good customer, the better places take care of their better customers. That was one of the main messages in Fat Guy's first book. In this way, a report may or may not necessarily reflect what a first time customer may experience, but what a particular restaurant is capable of. Mileage may vary. I posit that the same is generally true for Frank Bruni's experiences as well.

[Fat Guy]

The straw man behind all this obsession with motive is the hypothetical restaurant that treats its average customer like dirt but cynically cultivates a select few customers to report great experiences. I'm not sure there are any existing restaurants like that, or if there are they are really old-school insider-ish places on their last legs which are not really discussed much anyway. The reality of most restaurants, especially those that get serious attention from food-savvy people, is that they try to deliver a good baseline experience and they go the extra mile for regulars, VIPs, industry people, etc. So yeah, when you read a report from a regular you're seeing the at-its-best version, but it's not some night-and-day thing where everything other than best is awful. And for those who are considering going to a restaurant more than once, knowing what a restaurant is able to do for regulars is relevant information. Moreover, anybody who is experienced at writing about the dining scene can pretty quickly recognize the variance between the baseline experience and the VIP experience, to the extent that is worth knowing.

I can also understand how, to someone who gets only the occasional comp or bit of special treatment, it can feel pretty special. It's like a normal person's relationship to Wagyu beef: it's damn special and memorable when you get a little. An anecdote on this point . . .

The other night, at an event at Beacon hosted by DeBragga & Spitler (an awesome coincidence that two companies I routinely shill for held an event together), I sat next to some nice folks who own a company called Imperial Beef. They produce American Wagyu out of Lincoln, Nebraska, and their product is excellent. What interested me most, though, was that the wife told me their home freezer is always overflowing with Wagyu. They make their chili, their fajitas, their hamburgers from beef the rest of us pay for by the ounce.

Trying to bribe someone like Mr. Cutlets with a free plate of food would be about as effective as trying to bribe the owners of Imperial Beef with a bowl of Wagyu chili. Mr. Cutlets (and Ben Leventhal, and Dan Maurer, etc.) is awash in free food. He also has a generous budget from Citysearch and could probably maintain his body weight only eating on that budget. He's invited to so many special events he can't accept all the invitations and sometimes has more than one in a night. Other journalists take him out to meals. You simply can't buy him with free food.

[Sneakeater]

Which is why I also adverted to schmoozing, etc.

Explain his At Vermilion fixation.

And don't say, "oh, it's just a matter of taste."

Edited March 13, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

Because the point is, he himself said, he's not in the criticism business. He's in the celebration business. But he needs a steady stream of new things to celebrate. Which the PR machine is happy to feed him. They need each other.

And we're like Dr. No at the end of the novel (different from the movie), being crushed by a column of slowly extruded guano.

[Fat Guy]

But that's a complaint -- valid or not -- that you'd have to make equally about the music press, technology press, automotive press, music press, etc. -- pretty much everybody except a few Frank Bruni-like journalists operating under strict cloaks of secrecy. It's certainly not a complaint unique to professional food bloggers.

[Sneakeater]

That's fine. Josh's writing style, presentation, reputation, etc., made me think his site was something more than it is.

Now that I know that it's just like a lot of other junk I don't pay any attention to, I'll have more time each day.

Who says foodboards don't give you real value?

[slkinsey]

Because the point is, he himself said, he's not in the criticism business.  He's in the celebration business.  But he needs a steady stream of new things to celebrate.  Which the PR machine is happy to feed him.  They need each other.

Okay... but let's put this into perspective: The "PR machine" is certainly helpful to him in finding out what new places are opening and what potentially "celebrate-worthy" things restaurants are doing that they think enough of to send out press releases or invite in members of the media.

This would, of course, be in addition to the regular dining out, networking, magazine reading, reading of online fora and checking of various grapevines for this kind of information that he normally does in the course of his work. But, for now, let's focus on the "PR machine" part of the equation.

You know... if you get an invitation to a restaurant or recieve a product sample or whatever, and it doesn't float your boat... you just don't write about it. Happens all the time.

[oakapple]

Trying to bribe someone like Mr. Cutlets with a free plate of food would be about as effective as trying to bribe the owners of Imperial Beef with a bowl of Wagyu chili.

←

My sense is, yeah, food alone won't do it.