Thornton's Restaurant Dublin

[Corinna Dunne]

Hi Brian B - Good to have more comment from the Irish side of the Forum. As Hazel and Simon said, comparing Dublin prices with the rest of Europe, particularly Spain, is enough to make you weep.

Lunch is available for €50-€60 for 3 courses

←

But I think this very uncompetitive pricing for lunch is a big mistake for Thornton's. I'm also not sure that his desserts are 2*, but the balance of everything else being up to scratch - and it sounds like the room is a much better space since the refurb - should see him reunited with the second star.

There has been some interesting discussion on the Critics and Food Writers thread about price positioning and I think whatever about Thornton's, the advice applies in a huge way to Dylan McGrath in Mint who is certainly charging 1* prices for dinner (the lunch is a steal). The more I think about what he's trying to do in that small room, the more I worry that he is going to leave the place on a stretcher some day. I agree that he's the most exciting chef in Dublin at the moment, but space is so tight not only in the kitchen, but also in the room, that for him to get a star, it's going to be all about the food... which is definitely at 1* level. It would be great to see him move to a better room like One Pico... and change the name of course because it carries too much baggage.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Corinna Dunne (log)

[Simon_S]

Hmm, it's interesting that the question of filling restaurants should come up here. A colleague told me this morning that they rang Thornton's yesterday and booked a table for Saturday week. They had tried to book Chapter One but were told all Saturdays are booked up until July, and hence they've closed their Saturday bookings for the moment. It got me thinking about the whole question of restaurant popularity, pricing, Michelin and what Irish people are looking for in general. I read the thread you mentioned, Corinna, and it got me thinking some more.

Please excuse my ramblings to follow.

I have to throw my hands up off the bat and say that, 9 times out of 10, I don't understand why people go to the restaurants they go to. Why the "Little Venices" of this city are so popular is beyond me. But having spoken to various friends/colleagues etc, I'm starting to understand why people *don't* go to some of the high-end restaurants, and I don't think it's sticker-shock. At the risk of unfairly denigrating my fellow countrypersons with generalisations, Ireland's Celtic Tiger Cubs are terrified of formality. They're put off by the idea of fancy food being served at places that are no craic. They think that they wouldn't enjoy the food even if they tasted it. They would sooner spend 45 Euro on a steak in Shanahan's (and that's before they even order a spud!) than a 45 Euro main course at Thornton's. Dropping 200 Euro on dinner isn't the problem, it's the formal restaurant experience.

Chapter One, partly correctly, is seen as somewhere that gives you well-cooked but not too fancy food with an Irish-style service. None of that French snootiness, none of that hushed awe. No, good food in relaxed surroundings is the order of the day. I'm convinced that's why it's so popular. Of course, the food is good as well, but good enough to be booked out until July? Strangely, I don't find the restaurant all that relaxed either, but that's the reputation, so...

Thornton's, by contrast, has a reputation for fancy, serious, Frenchy food, hushed room, somewhere your average man-on-the-street wouldn't feel comfortable. I think they're trying to address that, while staying within the confines of the high-end, Michelin thing, and I think they're doing a good job. It's not anything like as imposing as people think there, and maybe the canape bar, coupled with the flexibility of the new menu, will start to convince punters of that. Focusing on the €180 menu is a mistake, I think, that's not what this restaurant is going to be about. Nonetheless, I agree that the increase in lunch prices is an error. I wonder will that be changed, or will they reinstate the 2-course option? Apparently, they'll be offering low-calorie lunch options, so it seems bizarre to force 3 courses in the process. Time will tell.

Mint, meanwhile, has thusfar managed to avoid the stuffy reputation, and I think that's partly *because* of the room. As tight as the room is, I firmly believe that many people are instantly made to feel *more* comfortable by it, not less. There's no sense of imposing, Michelin fanciness when you walk in. You can talk and laugh and have the craic while you tuck into top-notch food. The Ranelagh location helps too. The only blot on this horizon is the word spreading that they serve "modern foamy stuff", which once again terrifies your average Irish diner. Still, I don't think McGrath's dinner menu is especially pricey right now. What is it, €65 for 3 courses? In Dublin, that seems like good value, and that seems a notch below Michelin 1* pricing. Still, I share your fears that he'll be carried out on a stretcher!

Ultimately, I'm not sure that there are sufficient numbers of "gastronomes" in Dublin to keep a plethora of Michelin-starred restaurants in business purely on the basis of food. At some point, you're depending on people who may not be "into" food, but aren't afraid to pay up for a meal. To do that, you have to get them in the door and persuade them that it doesn't require special skills to eat at your restaurant, that it's not necessary to be a "foodie". People need to be persuaded to just sit back, relax, eat and enjoy. I'm not saying that we're price insensitive here, but I think it's not *quite* as high a consideration as you might find in other markets. People will pay the money, you've just got to get the image right.

All of the above is, of course, my humble opinion!!

Si

[HannaBanana]

I think as well you have to remember that restaurants go in and out of fashion, on totally non-food related basis. Fire is booked out all the time. Diep Le Shaker beats people away from the door. Look at Roly's...These places all have heavily cultivated images which attract certain clientele. People aren't visiting for the food, or the craic, but because they believe that these are the places they should eat....Whether that's due to a celebrity owner, á lá Jean Christophe Novelli in La Stampa, Location (again, Roly's in d4) or agressive marketing campaigns telling them it's the place to be (Rhodes D7, Venu).

People who know nothing about/don't care about/aren't interested in food may be led by choices which illustrate their lifestyles choices.

[Corinna Dunne]

A colleague told me this morning that they rang Thornton's yesterday and booked a table for Saturday week. They had tried to book Chapter One but were told all Saturdays are booked up until July, and hence they've closed their Saturday bookings for the moment. It got me thinking about the whole question of restaurant popularity, pricing, Michelin and what Irish people are looking for in general.

Wow... that's a bit scary for Thornton's, considering the publicity should at least have aroused a curiousity factor. Chapter One is a phenomenon, for all the reasons you say. In terms of what works in Ireland, they really have the whole package: it's a nice, but not overwhelming room, the service (I have found) is very friendly, and Martin Corbett the co-owner who works front of house brings a very personal touch to the restaurant, and the food, which makes strong use of seasonal ingredients and local produce is good... though certainly not beyond 1*. Mind you, I have heard reports that it even "feels" a bit busy now, so the additional popularity is perhaps not doing it any favours (it was always booked up for at least 6 weeks on Saturdays).

I think though, I have found equal measures of conservativeness and price sensitivity (wait until your pals have kids and have to pay babysitters etc), and on this basis, Chapter One wins hands down for a large swathe of diners over the small portions in L'Ecrivain (unless you fill up on the plain boiled spuds which are served in a bowl!) and the more expense accounty atmosphere its had in the past few years (this place used to be much more like Chapter One in food and feel quite a while back). Thornton's and Guilbaud's were always seen to be more formal, and as you say Irish people just don't like this... and in many cases it's not because they find it overwhelming, it just feels like a work dinner, and not as you say... craic.

A crowd of Chapter One fans that I know well dined in Mint last weekend (on my advice... you must go there), and for them, their loyalties have not been swayed. They liked the food, but felt that there was too much of it and the service seemed to be uncharacteristically off that night, and for that money (which is about the same as a meal at Chapter One, not forgetting that Mint has a "discretionary" service charge of 12.5%), they felt the room should be more comfortable. I find this worrying, because they are exactly the type of diner that Mint needs and it they're not buying in, I know of plenty more conservative palates that won't even give it a shot. But to balance that, I have met others who just go "Wow", so probably a very polarising experience.

I think as well you have to remember that restaurants go in and out of fashion, on totally non-food related basis. Fire is booked out all the time. Diep Le Shaker beats people away from the door. Look at Roly's...These places all have heavily cultivated images which attract certain clientele. People aren't visiting for the food, or the craic, but because they believe that these are the places they should eat....

I think the thing with Fire and Roly's is that they are great places for a crowd, and Diep, yep, in fashion (undeservedly) and costing quite a bit if you have a cocktail. Places like Town Bar (good food but a bit snotty to civilians), Peploes (comfort food) and Bang (young and trendy) are hugely in fashion too and do a roaring trade... and maybe this is just where the guts of the market spend is.

I would expect that Ramsay's new place in Wicklow sees itself as being supported primarily by guests and beefed up with destination diners. Simon, maybe you're right, Dublin/Ireland just isn't traditional "Michelin" territory.

[Bails]

I feel compelled to contribute here-I would totally agree with what is being said above. Restaurants in the main seem to be somewhere to go, rather than to experience in Dublin. I know that sounds a bit 'up my own arse' but in the more established restaurants i've been to in Dublin there seems to be no real interest in the actual food people are eating. I know this may seem strange but I have actually seen diners speak with their companions about things... other than the food they are eating!! At a recent trip to Mint, from the reaction of the other diners you would swear a school dinner had been put down in front of them...and polished off with as much appreciation. My point is (and maybe this is unfair) its rare to see a buzz in a Dublin restaurant that is actually about the food. Its very much a 'food is fuel' mentality and the experience centres around the 'craic'. If I ask anyone about a restaurant they have been to, the food can often be the third or fourth thing they mention.

[HannaBanana]

I feel compelled to contribute here-I would totally agree with what is being said above.  Restaurants in the main seem to be somewhere to go, rather than to experience in Dublin.  I know that sounds a bit 'up my own arse' but in the more established restaurants i've been to in Dublin there seems to be no real interest in the actual food people are eating. I know this may seem strange but I have actually seen diners speak with their companions about things... other than the food they are eating!!    At a recent trip to Mint, from the reaction of the other diners you would swear a school dinner had been put down in front of them...and polished off with as much appreciation.  My point is (and maybe this is unfair) its rare to see a buzz in a Dublin restaurant that is actually about the food.  Its very much a 'food is fuel' mentality and the experience centres around the 'craic'.  If I ask anyone about a restaurant they have been to, the food can often be the third or fourth thing they mention.

←

Hi Balis, I totally agree with your post! The whole "food is fuel" thing perplexes me sometimes.....and restaurants rarely seem to be about the food, and more about the lining before the real drinkin' starts..

Having said that, after Throntons last Sat, I woke on Sunday morning and said to Simon, "You know what would be nice? Going to a restaurant where we DON'T talk about the food - like, have a real conversation".....

I think I've been eating out too much lately!! (Don't let Corinna overhear that! )

[Corinna Dunne]

I know this may seem strange but I have actually seen diners speak with their companions about things... other than the food they are eating!!    At a recent trip to Mint, from the reaction of the other diners you would swear a school dinner had been put down in front of them...and polished off with as much appreciation.

←

Welcome to the Forum Bails... great to have a leveller. If you knew what crap we talk, you'd be glad to have us get back on the subject of food

What did you think of your meal in Mint?

And Gastronomes... you are not allowed to give up eating! If you are looking to balance your top end experiences, you should get in for a shawarma in Fayruz

[HannaBanana]

And Gastronomes... you are not allowed to give up eating!  If you are looking to balance your top end experiences, you should get in for a shawarma in Fayruz

←

I don't want to give up eating, it's just that every dinner conversation seems to revolve around either

a: an in depth discussion and break down of each course;

b: a comparison with Mint;

c: A discussion about who will write it up for eGullet; or

d: A combination of all the above.

It'd be nice to go out for a pizza and discuss, oh, I don't know, people, places, art (!) or even Rugby!!!

[kerriar]

Places like Town Bar (good food but a bit snotty to civilians)

Not what you expect in Dublin - I'm eating there tomorrow and will post some comments if I think it's worth a mention. A reservation for Chapter One was simply out of the question this weekend. Thornton's didn't really fit this weekend either.

Thornton's hovers between one and two stars and on this occasion Michelin got it about right. The food is what you would expect at this level but it is expensive by any international standard - Brian B is correct when he puts it at about twice the price of a Benelux two or three star.

I'm not sure if the Simon_S's defensive point about property prices being a contributory factor to the cost of eating in Dublin holds water - real estate in central Paris is even more expensive but you can eat more reasonably there at the top end of the market, not to mention in the more main-stream places. To me it seems that the lack of a critical mass for this level of fine dining will always mean that prices in Dublin are high if costs are to be recovered. A few Friday lunches in Thornton's over recent years have generally been in a half full restaurant whereas somewhere like the Sea Grill in Brussels (two stars, heading for a third) always seem to fill their tables even on a Monday night.

These are good reasons for supporting somewhere like Mint (have not got there yet) since they raise the general consciousness of good food but it is still far too easy to eat badly in places in Dublin whose level of pretentiousness and lack of professional understanding of food does not deter them from charging rip-off prices.

By the way, reading the comments in eGullet is one way of avoiding the latter fate.

Edited February 22, 2007 by kerriar (log)

[RDB]

Hi Balis, I totally agree with your post! The whole "food is fuel" thing perplexes me sometimes.....and restaurants rarely seem to be about the food, and more about the lining before the real drinkin' starts..

Very much a phenomenon that is alive and well across the border. At the ill fated michelin starred Oriel in Gilford Co Down, I recall the punters demanding that the chef serve side orders of spuds because the food wasn't filling them. Something which Corrina mentions about L'ecrivian. Maybe it all harks back to the famine

[Simon_S]

I'm not sure if the Simon_S's defensive point about property prices being a contributory factor to the cost of eating in Dublin holds water - real estate in central Paris is even more expensive but you can eat more reasonably there at the top end of the market, not to mention in the more main-stream places.

←

I didn't mean to sound defensive, although I see what you mean on re-reading my post. I get a bee in my bonnet about the whole pricing issue because people (and I'm not accusing anyone here) look at the bottom line and simply think "crazy", when in reality I think what's crazy is paying €28 for a poor steak sandwich in a pub. Dublin is full of silly prices at the moment (not just food) and I don't really think Thornton's is engaged in rampant profiteering. Indeed, for what you get, I consider Thornton's to be far better value than most mid-range restaurants, but I'm funny like that. I think comparisons with Paris and other capitals, while tempting, are not valid for various reasons, including the economies of scale you mentioned. Still, Thornton's is in a pretty prime location, and I doubt it comes cheap. Isn't Grafton Street one of the most expensive retail spaces in the world? In any case, I won't belabour the point.

Of course, I don't disagree that you can eat better, cheaper elsewhere. The only problem is, I don't live elsewhere.

One more thing. Having eaten at a recently elevated one star in France while skiing, I came to the conclusion that a star is much harder to come by over here than over there. If what I ate there is one-star food, then Thornton's is definitely a solid 2 at the moment. I've only eaten at 1 starred restaurant in Paris (so far!) and that was the 1* L'Angle du Faubourg. Again, Thornton's is far ahead of that restaurant in my opinion. Unfortunately, my only 3* experience in France was at Bocuse, which isn't representative (I hope).

By the way, reading the comments in eGullet is one way of avoiding the latter fate.

←

Amen!

Si

[HannaBanana]

Very much a phenomenon that is alive and well across the border. At the ill fated michelin starred Oriel in Gilford Co Down, I recall the punters demanding that the chef serve side orders of spuds because the food wasn't filling them. Something which Corrina mentions about L'ecrivian.  Maybe it all harks back to the famine 

←

I think some people feel that a meal isn't a meal unless it's accompanied by spuds/chips and overcooked carrots and broccoli.......

[Corinna Dunne]

Kerrier, if you feel so inclined, it would be good to start a thread on Town Bar and Grill. It's Italian in a sort of New York way. Pretty straightfoward menu with minimum messing about, although it doesn't pass the tiramisu test for me (too much cream on top and too bilious). But this place does, IMHO represent good value for money, which, I think we all agree, is a rare treat in Dublin. It's just very in with the movers and shakers, and you can sense the FOH people looking over your head to the door to see if there's anyone "important" coming in (not just my opinion, but the opinion of many civilians).

But back to the topic, yes Simon, I agree that Thornton's is actually a much better deal relatively than many of the restaurants around, but I think that the fact that it doesn't fill to capacity has a bearing on the prices. He says he doens't care about the star thing, but I think he does deeply. Otherwise he would have changed the menu significantly and dropped the price point. He may have missed an opportunity.

It's going to be very interesting to see how Troy Maguire (ex L'Gueuleton) does when he opens at Locks, just down the canal from the old Thornton's premises. I think he could be right on the money with his "bistro deluxe" concept.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Corinna Dunne (log)

[Catriona]

And Gastronomes... you are not allowed to give up eating!  If you are looking to balance your top end experiences, you should get in for a shawarma in Fayruz

←

I NEARLY made it to fayruz this weekend...

If we don't go to connemara over Easter, I'll be back in Dublin then and will make a point of it. Perhaps something with lamb, for the easter vibe.

[Brian B]

Central Dublin prices are prohibitive,we also lack enough suburbs that can sustain new and dynamic chefs who are willing to try new things in terms of ingredients and techniques.

Mint is a case in point,I remember a similar reaction to Ollie Dunne when he first opened,but it is very hard for a London chef to find the staff,appreciative customers who can think outside the box and a supportive backer. Ranelagh is a great location but to sustain a fine dining restaurant you need a larger customer base especially at lunchtime.

The room in Mint just doesnt feel like a one star restaurant,granted I have not been there in almost a year and am really looking forward to my next visit,there is only so much that can be done with that space. The dilemma facing the present chef is does he stay and hope for a star which the cooking probably deserves or does he seek a premises that would be better suited for his ambitions. In a way its a two edged sword.

It is also a reason why many chefs will still go to london to further there prospects as the Dublin Michelin restaurant scene lacks a cutting edge that is found there.

[Corinna Dunne]

I just heard that RhodesD7 was packed to the gills last Thurs, so not suffering from a location factor, or maybe just enjoying a spillover from Valentine's night. In any case, his Garyness was over for a few days (marketing... according to the owner of the pub across the road who has a perfect view into the place!), so he was working the tables until about 9.30pm and then headed off (my friends had a late table and didn't get to meet him). It will be interesting to see what press coverage he gets from his visit.

Steve was in Venu last night and said it was doing nicely turning the tables from the after work crowd to a dinner crowd. So clearly the market for bistro food at the right price is alive and well in Dublin in February.

Brian, regarding Oliver Dunne... I didn't think that he was doing anything way out in terms of food, I think he just had the neighbourhood restaurant formula off pat and his pricing was spot on. I'd love to hear how you get on in Mint when you go. I absolutely agree on your point about Ranelagh being a tough spot for lunch time trade.

The room in Mint just doesnt feel like a one star restaurant,granted I have not been there in almost a year and am really looking forward to my next visit,there is only so much that can be done with that space. The dilemma facing the present chef is does he stay and hope for a star which the cooking probably deserves or does he seek a premises that would be better suited for his ambitions. In a way its a two edged sword.

Regarding Dylan McGrath staying put till he gets a star, I'd imagine that the food should be enough to get him there. The room is small and the tables are tight, and it's certainly not textbook Michelin, but it's a pleasant space. I think the big problem is that the waiting staff have no where to go. The tiny kitchen is packed and they have to choreograph their way out of the path of diners on the way to the bathroom (which they do very nicely). I don't know how the Michelin men view this, but hopefully they will see the real picture, which is a chef who is incredibly determined and capable.

Have you been to Thornton's, or have you any interest in going there?

Edited February 22, 2007 by Corinna Dunne (log)

[Bails]

Corinna-As expected our meal at Mint was superb. It is a bit of a distant memory as we were there about two months ago now but we did the taster and it was superb. The lamb dish was one of the best plates of food I have ever put away. I loved it because it combines the classic and the creative so well, while maintaing a sense of fun. I love it when a dish can raise a smile because it can throw your expectations a bit..or in the case of Mint because its so bloody good.

...oh and despite it being a long time ago now, I still shudder at the memory as baby boileds and very average ratatouille were laid before me at L'ecrevian.

[Corinna Dunne]

Corinna-As expected our meal at Mint was superb.  It is a bit of a distant memory as we were there about two months ago now but we did the taster and it was superb.  The lamb dish was one of the best plates of food I have ever put away.  I loved it because it combines the classic and the creative so well, while maintaing a sense of fun.  I love it when a dish can raise a smile because it can throw your expectations a bit..or in the case of Mint because its so bloody good.

←

I agree on the lamb, deep flavour, beautifully trimmed and cooked sous vide. There's a thread on Mint here.

[Simon_S]

I see the menus have been updated on Thornton's website to reflect the new regime. Interestingly, the lunch menu is still given as €30/€40 for 2/3 courses, and this article in the Sunday Business Post (dated 11 Feb) says the same. I wonder...

I'm hoping to pop in for canapes this evening, so I'll check it out.

Si

[Corinna Dunne]

I'm hoping to pop in for canapes this evening, so I'll check it out.

←

Will you be looking for chips with the canapes?

[Simon_S]

Will you be looking for chips with the canapes? 

←

If the opportunity arises, I'll ask for them with something of a glint in my eye...

Si

[Corinna Dunne]

Sure why don't you invite Joe Duffy to come along with you? He seems to be completely enthralled with Thornton's. .. "yeah, yeah... Michelin star restuarant, yeah yeah... Michelin star". Did you hear the interview?

[Simon_S]

Sure why don't you invite Joe Duffy to come along with you?  He seems to be completely enthralled with Thornton's. .. "yeah, yeah... Michelin star restuarant, yeah yeah... Michelin star".  Did you hear the interview?

←

I did. I thought KT came across very well, actually, although for every word Joe Duffy spoke I felt my IQ lower a notch.

Si

[Corinna Dunne]

Grr... I didn't get the end of it. I didn't realise that KT went on air. I missed the best part!!! I'd love to have been there to see the floor show. I thought the caller who phoned in to say how great it was that he got a special order of chips with his veal in 3* Arzak was hillarious... talk about missing the point! With all this publicity, Thornton should be in line for his own TV series soon!!!

Dying to hear about the canapes. Perhaps to be original you could ask for chicken nuggets avec tomato ketchup, now that the chips thing has been done.

[Simon_S]

I didn't listen to the end of the show either, and I missed the Arzak thing. Just goes to show that some of the points I made upthread about the Irish diner might not be too far from the mark...

KT came on the air the following day (Wed, about 28 mins into the programme if you fancy a listen) and basically said the whole thing wasn't about chips, it was about bad behaviour of guests. He was unwilling to get into the nitty gritty of what happened, but as I say, he came across well.

I think chicken nuggets, ketchup and spicy potato wedges might be a worthwhile order...

Si