4-Star Dilemma

[markk]

I've wanted to post about a most disappointing meal we had at a NY Times 4-Star restaurant recently, but there are mitigating circumstances. The chef was extremely willing to alter a few dishes for one of the diners to accommodate a medical problem; however, all the food was just not up to par.

The request was from one diner who needed to avoid alcohol, and simply asked to be steered away from those dishes that had it, unless it could be easily omitted. So they wound up leaving the wine out of the sauce of two of the dishes, and for another dish, volunteered to make him an alternate preparation that didn't require liquor, thinking it would be more enjoyable than the preparation listed on the menu after the alcohol was omitted.

The problem is that there were two diners, having 5 savory courses each (one had the alcohol-free version of 3 dishes) and the other had the dishes un-altered. But 3 of the 5 courses were seriously sub-standard. Most of the dishes arrived barely warm, several were nothing better than just "un-starred" ordinary, and both diners had to send back the last savory course because (with or without the wine in the sauce), it just couldn't be eaten - it was overcooked, and quite un-enjoyable. Only one dish, which we've had before, achieved what should be NY Times 4-star heights.

I would say that the kitchen was having an extremely "off" night, and I'm not sure that that's supposed to happen at the four-star level. On the other hand, I think it was extremely nice of the kitchen even to offer to make those modifications.

I also don't really think that those few changes could have caused 8 of ten plates to come out lukewarm, dull, and ordinary and in one case, needing two plates to be changed for something else.

But I'd hate to have the chef learn that I posted a complaint somewhere as visible as eGullet and named the restaurant, and cause him to think, "those effing ungrates - after all the accommodations I made for them !!!"

So I don't know whether I should post about the sub-standard meal (I've dined there before and had significantly better meals), or just bite the bullet and be thankful that they were willing to accommodate us, and write-off the highly disappointing meal. All things considered, it really shouldn't have been one.

Any thoughts, my fellow Gulletteers?

[Nathan]

one off meal (with significant extenuating circumstances) isn't a reason to publicly disparage a restaurant you normally have good meals at

[Daniel]

Did you call and speak before you went.. It might have been more successful if you had mentioned this while making the reservation.

[greenfield]

But I'd hate to have the chef learn that I posted a complaint somewhere as visible as eGullet and named the restaurant, and cause him to think, "those effing ungrates - after all the accommodations I made for them !!!"

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I don't think you asked for an unreasonable accommodation. If the restaurant could not accommodate you, it was up to them to tell you so in a way that did not make you feel uncomfortable. Did you mention the restrictions when you made your reservation? Did you ask for anything besides the alcohol restriction?

I'm curious if you asked to speak to the manager about your concerns during your meal; if you did, what did he or she say? I would think an off night in the kitchen of one of the four 4-star restaurants in New York City should be a rare event. Even if there were an off night, the manager, servers, and hosts should have still helped mitigate the problems in the kitchen. If I have concerns with a business, I try to resolve it privately before airing my concerns publicly.

That being said, you really can't have it both ways: if you are going to complain about a restaurant publicly, you need to accept that the chef or owner may be upset. Of course, they are also businessmen and one hopes they wouldn't take your criticism personally.

(Incidentally, unless I'm way off the mark, your write-up doesn't obscure the restaurant well. Since there are only four 4-star restaurants in NYC, it's not difficult to figure out which one you're describing.)

one off meal (with significant extenuating circumstances) isn't a reason to publicly disparage a restaurant you normally have good meals at

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I'm not sure I agree that the request made for a "significant extenuating circumstance." Nathan, why do you feel such a post is out of line?

[markk]

To answer the questions, I did call a few days in advance.

There was one dish in particular that the diner needing alcohol-free was interested in, and the phone call resulted in them asking the kitchen and getting the answer that that particular dish could have the alcohol omitted with no problems simply by asking the server at the time of the meal.

The other lengths that they went to (omitting the bit of wine from two sauces) were their own suggestions.

Indeed, I agree wholeheartedly with greenfield's comment, "an off night in the kitchen of one of the four 4-star restaurants in New York City should be a rare event" - which is where my dilemma is born.

On the other hand, I know well the expression, "no good deed goes un-punished", and while I don't feel that these requests should have caused a poor meal at a such a restaurant, I do think that it was awfully nice of them to offer to make them (would that the food have been stellar, though), considering it could have been well within their right to say that they were unable to accommodate the requests.

On strictly culinary terms, at that level, I think they should have been able to make the slight modifications and turned out two spectacular dinners, where instead they served two lackluster ones. On the other hand, and maybe I'm just feeling the joy of the season, the chef tried to do something nice, and just because the restaurant failed that night, I'm tempted to want to take his kindness into account. Had we simply ordered from the menu with no mention of omitting alcohol, and been served this food, I would have been totally outraged, and would have posted about it by name and in great detail.

Edited to add a PS to greenfield: while you may have guessed the restaurant, I'd prefer not to name it at this point, if at all; thanks.

Edited December 28, 2007 by markk (log)

[docsconz]

If this were my first time at this restaurant I would likely just not return. If, however, I have had numerous superb meals, I would simply write this one off as a subpar experience which obviously can happen at the best of places, and return without further ado. If it happened again, I would not return.

Just out of curiosity, what was the issue with the alcohol? The alcohol in the sauces should have been cooked off and not been an issue per se.

BTW, I think that it is reasonable to not have mentioned the name at this point. I think the likelihood is that it was simply an off night or even just an off meal. Granted that should be rare at a 4* and thankfully is. Unfortunately for you, you happened upon one of those rare instances. It sucks to be disappointed by any meal, but especially so with such high expectations and prices.

[chefboy24]

first of all, you should name this restaurant. why protect their privacy?

second of all, i'm guessing it was daniel.

third of all, i'm guessing these people you were dining with, its sound like your complaints are not valid, that you're just being difficult. if a fish or meat is overcooked, send it back. these things happen. it should come back cooked to a proper temperature.

i'm having a really hard time believing you, to be honest. you aren't specific at all. i think you or the diners you were with wanted to be difficult or came in with a chip on your shoulder.

if i was at daniel, jean georges, or le bernardin, and i got a plate of food that was luke warm, i would send it back IMMEDIATELY. i'm sure they would shower you with love and affection afterwards even more. if something was overcooked? SEND IT BACK.

did you send anything back? did you let anyone know that there was a problem?

its diners like you who write letters and bitch and complain after the meal is totally over who really piss us off. LET THE RESTAURANT KNOW THAT THINGS ARE WRONG and you want them corrected immediately, don't post it on a blog or a forum a few days later.

just being honest.

[docsconz]

first of all, you should name this restaurant.  why protect their privacy?

second of all, i'm guessing it was daniel.

third of all, i'm guessing these people you were dining with, its sound like your complaints are not valid, that you're just being difficult.  if a fish or meat is overcooked, send it back.  these things happen.  it should come back cooked to a proper temperature. 

i'm having a really hard time believing you, to be honest. you aren't specific at all.  i think you or the diners you were with wanted to be difficult or came in with a chip on your shoulder.

if i was at daniel, jean georges, or le bernardin, and i got a plate of food that was luke warm, i would send it back IMMEDIATELY.  i'm sure they would shower you with love and affection afterwards even more.  if something was overcooked? SEND IT BACK.

did you send anything back?  did you let anyone know that there was a problem?

its diners like you who write letters and bitch and complain after the meal is totally over who really piss us off.  LET THE RESTAURANT KNOW THAT THINGS ARE WRONG and you want them corrected immediately, don't post it on a blog or a forum a few days later.

just being honest.

←

FWIW, they did send the last dish back. From the initial post:

both diners had to send back the last savory course because (with or without the wine in the sauce), it just couldn't be eaten - it was overcooked, and quite un-enjoyable.

As for whether or not to mention the particular restaurant, it appears that the poster is not interested in slamming the particular restaurant, but simply positing a situation and seeking thoughts on it. In a sense, the particular restaurant and particular dishes are irrelevant to the discussion as posted, though they may be of prurient interest or relevant in a topic devoted to that particular restaurant. That the situation involved special accommodation sets it apart from routine discussion of a specific restaurant. I would think that a priori taking wine out of a sauce to which it is usually added would reduce the gustatory impact of that sauce, but that doesn't excuse the inferior qualities of the dishes presented usually.

I think that if anyone goes to any restaurant often enough, one will eventually have a disappointing meal. If it happens on the first or second visit though, one is not likely to return nor is one likely to give that restaurant the benefit of the doubt.

[Allura]

Just out of curiosity, what was the issue with the alcohol? The alcohol in the sauces should have been cooked off and not been an issue per se.

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Actually, it doesn't. Found that out when I started on a med that does not mix with alcohol at all.

As to the discussion...I'm not convinced an off night is acceptable at the high end, even if it is the result of dealing with the real world and not fantasy. You probably should have said something about the lukewarm/overcooked food. it's harder to say anything about something that's just "not right," since that's so subjective. OTOH, I have a relative who sends back stuff she simply doesn't like all the time...but then you become one of "those" customers.

[docsconz]

Just out of curiosity, what was the issue with the alcohol? The alcohol in the sauces should have been cooked off and not been an issue per se.

←

Actually, it doesn't. Found that out when I started on a med that does not mix with alcohol at all.

As to the discussion...I'm not convinced an off night is acceptable at the high end, even if it is the result of dealing with the real world and not fantasy. You probably should have said something about the lukewarm/overcooked food. it's harder to say anything about something that's just "not right," since that's so subjective. OTOH, I have a relative who sends back stuff she simply doesn't like all the time...but then you become one of "those" customers.

←

Interesting link, thanks.

I don't think that anyone has said that an off night is acceptable, but even 4* restaurants are human and can have an off night. I am not pleased when I am the recipient, but it does occasionally happen to everyone. If it happens to be an otherwise favorite restaurant do you spite yourself and never return or do you return and hope for the best? By all means mis-cooked or poorly served food should be sent back with proper feedback given to management. If it happens more thn once in a blue moon then one should re-evaluate one's attachment to that restaurant.

[ulterior epicure]

markk, while I'm not encouraging (or discouraging) disclosure of the identity of this 4* restaurant, I think you've done quite a fine job of stating the problem and explaining the situation and your unhappiness in a fair and objective manner. I would/could only hope that the chef of a restaurant at that level would only take your commentary as an encouragement to improve or as a reminder of a self-evaluation check. As doc mentioned, no 4* is perfect.

Although I am curious which restaurant it was (I have been to four of the five NYT's 4* restaurants - I think masa was awarded 4*, no?), I respect your wish for privacy. But, I do think that sharing the name would spark further dialogue and benefit this forum, and perhaps the restaurant's staff who might stumble across your observations.

[nypork]

first of all, you should name this restaurant.  why protect their privacy?

second of all, i'm guessing it was daniel.

third of all, i'm guessing these people you were dining with, its sound like your complaints are not valid, that you're just being difficult.  if a fish or meat is overcooked, send it back.  these things happen.  it should come back cooked to a proper temperature. 

i'm having a really hard time believing you, to be honest. you aren't specific at all.  i think you or the diners you were with wanted to be difficult or came in with a chip on your shoulder.

if i was at daniel, jean georges, or le bernardin, and i got a plate of food that was luke warm, i would send it back IMMEDIATELY.  i'm sure they would shower you with love and affection afterwards even more.  if something was overcooked? SEND IT BACK.

did you send anything back?  did you let anyone know that there was a problem?

its diners like you who write letters and bitch and complain after the meal is totally over who really piss us off.  LET THE RESTAURANT KNOW THAT THINGS ARE WRONG and you want them corrected immediately, don't post it on a blog or a forum a few days later.

just being honest.

←

I second that-as a cook in a open kitchen, I have a lot of interaction with customers-when I ask how their meal was, if they say "well a little to salty, to dry" or whatever, I tell them they should of sent it back-and the look of amazement in their eyes when I suggest this baffles me. Tell someone you don't like your meal, especially if you are dropping the coin that a 4star warrants. Personally, as a cook, I want to know if I sent something out mediocre.

[markk]

first of all, you should name this restaurant.  why protect their privacy?

second of all, i'm guessing it was daniel.

third of all, i'm guessing these people you were dining with, its sound like your complaints are not valid, that you're just being difficult.  if a fish or meat is overcooked, send it back.  these things happen.  it should come back cooked to a proper temperature. 

i'm having a really hard time believing you, to be honest. you aren't specific at all.  i think you or the diners you were with wanted to be difficult or came in with a chip on your shoulder.

if i was at daniel, jean georges, or le bernardin, and i got a plate of food that was luke warm, i would send it back IMMEDIATELY.  i'm sure they would shower you with love and affection afterwards even more.  if something was overcooked? SEND IT BACK.

did you send anything back?  did you let anyone know that there was a problem?

its diners like you who write letters and bitch and complain after the meal is totally over who really piss us off.  LET THE RESTAURANT KNOW THAT THINGS ARE WRONG and you want them corrected immediately, don't post it on a blog or a forum a few days later.

just being honest.

←

I second that-as a cook in a open kitchen, I have a lot of interaction with customers-when I ask how their meal was, if they say "well a little to salty, to dry" or whatever, I tell them they should of sent it back-and the look of amazement in their eyes when I suggest this baffles me. Tell someone you don't like your meal, especially if you are dropping the coin that a 4star warrants. Personally, as a cook, I want to know if I sent something out mediocre.

←

Okay then, since I'm the guy that started this, let me ask you a question. If I came in on a busy night, and you had some 4-star dishes on the menu that were complicated, and I asked if the alcohol could be omitted in one, and you decided to make me a whole other dish instead, and to leave the wine out of all the sauces, and then I went on an internet forum and said that the food was lousy and named your place - would you be pissed?

I'm not defending the restaurant, or in any way saying that what they served was acceptable at the 4-star level. I was just thinking of extending a kindness to the chef who certainly didn't have to do any of that on a busy night. I can buy two different explanations, one that special requests can throw a kitchen off on a busy night, and the other that at that level, they should be able to modify a dish and still send out something culinarily dazzling.

But all I'm asking is, if you did those things for me and then I trashed you by name online, would you be pissed and think of me as an ingrate?

[barbhealy]

I don't think the name of the restaurant is relevant at all.

What you are asking, I think, is whether a special request, agreed to by the chef, should cause such a discrepancy in the overall quality of your meal.

I know that when *I* make changes to a tried-and-true recipe the results can be disastrous! While it may be physically easy to omit the wine from the sauce, if the sauce is made up ahead, and the chef must disrupt his routine to stir up a special version sans wine, then it might very well have resulted in the rest of the meal sitting around waiting, especially if the chef 'remembered' to make the special version after the other dishes had been plated.

Also, eliminating the alcohol, while it might have been easy to do, could have had a negative effect on the overall balance of flavors.

I've never worked in a restaurant so someone who understands the pressure that a chef is under, especially a 4-star one, would be better able to answer the question, but I suspect that your 'extenuating circumstances' might very well have been responsible for the unsatisfactory meal, especially since there were changes made to 3 of the 5 courses.

If it were me, I would return to the restaurant (soon) and order the same 5 courses. If they're up to par, you can mention the discrepancy to the maitre'd and see if they admit to the trouble they had accomodating your special requests.

JMHO....

[barbhealy]

Oh...

yes, if it were me, I would be pissed if I did you a favor and you trashed me in public.

[nypork]

first of all, you should name this restaurant.  why protect their privacy?

second of all, i'm guessing it was daniel.

third of all, i'm guessing these people you were dining with, its sound like your complaints are not valid, that you're just being difficult.  if a fish or meat is overcooked, send it back.  these things happen.  it should come back cooked to a proper temperature. 

i'm having a really hard time believing you, to be honest. you aren't specific at all.  i think you or the diners you were with wanted to be difficult or came in with a chip on your shoulder.

if i was at daniel, jean georges, or le bernardin, and i got a plate of food that was luke warm, i would send it back IMMEDIATELY.  i'm sure they would shower you with love and affection afterwards even more.  if something was overcooked? SEND IT BACK.

did you send anything back?  did you let anyone know that there was a problem?

its diners like you who write letters and bitch and complain after the meal is totally over who really piss us off.  LET THE RESTAURANT KNOW THAT THINGS ARE WRONG and you want them corrected immediately, don't post it on a blog or a forum a few days later.

just being honest.

←

I second that-as a cook in a open kitchen, I have a lot of interaction with customers-when I ask how their meal was, if they say "well a little to salty, to dry" or whatever, I tell them they should of sent it back-and the look of amazement in their eyes when I suggest this baffles me. Tell someone you don't like your meal, especially if you are dropping the coin that a 4star warrants. Personally, as a cook, I want to know if I sent something out mediocre.

←

Okay then, since I'm the guy that started this, let me ask you a question. If I came in on a busy night, and you had some 4-star dishes on the menu that were complicated, and I asked if the alcohol could be omitted in one, and you decided to make me a whole other dish instead, and to leave the wine out of all the sauces, and then I went on an internet forum and said that the food was lousy and named your place - would you be pissed?

I'm not defending the restaurant, or in any way saying that what they served was acceptable at the 4-star level. I was just thinking of extending a kindness to the chef who certainly didn't have to do any of that on a busy night. I can buy two different explanations, one that special requests can throw a kitchen off on a busy night, and the other that at that level, they should be able to modify a dish and still send out something culinarily dazzling.

But all I'm asking is, if you did those things for me and then I trashed you by name online, would you be pissed and think of me as an ingrate?

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Catering to a customers special request happens all the time-I think they call it customer service. But name the restaurant if you want. Just as I would like the customers comments, as a diner I would like to know what others diners thought of a restaurant.

[robert40]

Most professional cooks cook the same dish day in and day out, and are very familiar with it. I can't imagine they would need a customer to point out if it was mediocre. They would well be aware of what faults the dish had before it hit the pass. We all appreciate feed back from customers, but if we did not put 100% into our work we would know it in our heart. No?

Edited January 5, 2008 by robert40 (log)