The State of French Dining

[lxt]

What he meant was that mediocre musicians -- i.e. those with nothing to say that's worth saying -- are becoming more and more technically proficient. Some would argue that there is also more and more flashy food that's just not worth eating.

Fleisher’s statement that “the standard of mediocrity is constantly rising" was related to the fact that the competency of pianists was raised to the point that it became harder to recognize the exceptional talents, which rather raises the bar in singling out the best. However, I am inclined to agree that technical proficiency and rather stability in carrying the musical work from the beginning to the end seems to dominate today’s evaluation criteria. Unfortunately Debussy’s advice “to preserve the mystery” when “touching” the music, plunging into the meaning behind the notes or bringing passages to life is no longer an important element for many contemporary pianists and is no longer valued as much as the ability to blandly race the metronome. Quite disappointing. Is this really what's happening with today's approach to evaluating chefs?

[ahr]

John Whiting: "Some would argue that there is also more and more flashy food that's just not worth eating."

LXT: "[T]echnical proficiency... seems to dominate today’s evaluation criteria... Unfortunately Debussy’s advice 'to preserve the mystery' when 'touching' the music, plunging into the meaning behind the notes or bringing passages to life is no longer an important element for many contemporary pianists and is no longer valued as much as the ability to blandly race the metronome... Is this really what's happening with today's approach to evaluating chefs?"

Are the chef-performers themselves, professional critics, or bored consumers driving this trend towards soulless virtuosity? Discuss.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Gee you spend one night away from the computer having dinner at Taillevent and you come back to a plethora of issues to deal with. Sheesh. Let's see in order;

John W. - Of course I'm describing capitalism. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You want all the benefits of the delicious food that competition gave you, but you don't want to have to pay the price of growth, i.e., progress. You can't have it both ways. So when you say;

It was not always thus. For centuries, except during periods of major instability from various causes, stability could result from doing the same thing well in exactly the same way, year after year.

try to remember that what comes with that are things like no airplanes or no medications to ward off infections, both things that greedy people invented as part of a growing economy.

Robert B. - No when I used the word "they," I was describing the totality of the people and their capital investment in the French food industry. Everyone from farmers, to middlemen, to chefs. My point was the entire country invested heavily in the food business when nobody else in the world was doing it and therefore lies their great advantage. But had the Kenyans invested in haricot verts in 1902, instead of 2002, the gastronomic world would be a diiferent place today. Look I had two cheeses in the U.S. recently that I would put up there with the best from France. That would have been impossible 20 years ago. Something to add to your post is the size of available restaurant spaces in Paris. There is really no equivelent of rooms that are the same size as Daniel or a place like Eleven Madison Park. Add to that the policy of turning only one seating a night, and the economics are a different ball of wax. This is why talented young chefs like Camdeborde and Barbot are in miniscule places. Even at Arpege, Laurent told me that they only hold about 50 people with the downstairs dining room at full capacity. If Passard came to NYC, he would have to serve 150 dinners a night just to make the economics work.

Marcus - Yes 300 euros each. Like I said, I don't want to pass judgement on whether it's worth the money. It's hard to say whether it is or it isn't because it's a totally unique experience. After we spent 4 1/2 hours there, ny wife said, "it's dinner plus the evening entertainment." I was just looking at it from a cost/price perspective. Yesterday when we were out shopping we ran into some people we know from NYC. They are here for two weeks and they recited a drop-dead schedule of three star eating. So when I told them I had been to Arpege the night before, the women said that it used to be her favorite restaurant. And that sometimes she would come to Paris and eat both lunch and dinner there. But now that they were serving mostly vegetables, she found it hard to justify the price.

Further to this point, we ate at Taillevent last night. I split the veal chop for two with somebody else in our party. Without giving away my review, we were quite pleased. But it was 106 euros. Now this chop was really slightly larger than a chop for one. It couldn't have cost them wholesale more then 15 euros. Possibly 20. Each of us got 4 slices of veal along with a chuinck of bacon, echalotte grise and some sliced mushrooms. If I have guessed the wholesale cost correctly, they have a 600%-700% markup on the chop. As I was just saying to someone in a PM, I can go to the 11 arr. to Le Chardenoux and have a slightly smaller chop with a pile of the mushroom of the day (morilles, trumpette etc.) for 25 euros or 12 1/2 euros for the portion I was served at Taillevent. Now it might not be the same quality meat, but is the Taillevent chop really worth almost 5X as much?

To me this cost discrepency in price shows that the middle class in France has disappeared from the dining scene in a serious way. Yes there are gourmands who are still ploppinng down their 200-300 euros for tasting menus. But they seem to have zero customers for meals in the 100 euro range. That seems to be the predominent price point these days for restaurants in the U.S. and the U.K.

Lxt - It's amazing that the people who promote socialism also complain about the mediocrity that stems from the equality that springs from it. J.W. would like France to rise to the occassion and make better green beans then Kenya based on personal pride. And he conveniently overlooks that it is money that is driving the Kenyans. Not that they aren't proud of what they do, but they wouldn't be doing it if not for the dough. If the French are going to compete at all, it will be the possibility of reclaiming the market share lost to the Kenyans that will drive them.

[John Whiting]

Are the chef-performers themselves, professional critics, or bored consumers driving this trend towards soulless virtuosity? Discuss.

At the top end of the consumer market, which is where we are, novelty is now much more highly valued than familiarity. With this predominant mindset, it's impossible to fix responsibility on any one link in the circular chain.

Edit: Steve, you're puting words into my mouth yet again. I said repeatedly that I was not making a value judgement but simply describing a state of affairs. "Progress" has indeed brought us the benefits you list; it is also exhausting the planet's resources. I have never suggested retreating from science; it is impossible to "un-know" what we have learned. In a world in which immediate return on short-term investment takes precedence over all other considerations, I suggest that you continue to enjoy as many good meals as you can cram in before "Mother Nature" submits the final invoice.

Further edit: And where did I ask France to grow better beans than Kenya? You just make it up as you go along.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"At the top end of the consumer market, which is where we are, novelty is now much more highly valued than familiarity. With this predominant mindset, it's impossible to fix responsibility on any one link in the circular chain."

It isn't novelty that is valued, it is forward motion. Progress is what everyone values. People feel the state of cooking has been stagnate and they want to see it move forward. So everything new is dissected and analyzed in a vain, yet hopeful attempt that real progress is being made. Just like it was for the first 80 years of the last century. As for "the final invoice," I find that the food industry, in all of it's silly attempts at mdernizing and creating items fit for a mass market, has done very little to hurt mother earth. Unless of course Viking stoves are felt to harm our ecological resources.

The fact of the matter is that what we are discussing affects the middle of the market way more then it does the top. As it is plain to see from the numbers I laid out, the top of the market can alaways adjust by paying a tremendous premiuim. It's the middle that can't adjust because they can't afford to. The wine I had all by myself at Chez Georges is a good case in point. And Landers refers to this in his article. It costs me 80 euros for a village wine. Granted it was Dujac and granted it was 1997, a particluarly good year for Dujac, but the wine should have cost 40 euros. And while they might not be my particular cup of tea, there are pinot noirs from other countries that are made in a more drinker friendly style that cost much less money. Here is where the French are getting killed. Yes New Zealand can't make a wine as good as Bonnes Mares, but they can make a wine that is arguably as good as the lesser bottlings. Those lesser bottlings were the French winemaker's bread and butter because he forced his customers to buy them if they wanted the top stuff. That leverage over the market is fading proportionate to how much New World wines are improving. And I think this example works for most food products.

[Steve Klc]

Robert--I found your last post very compelling. Thank you. In large part I agree completely with the sweep of your assessment. Not to beat the dead horse of Lauder too much, but if he just spoke to the overall decline and incongruence of service issues he sensed within France I would not have had any problem with his FT article. Unfortunately, he reached way beyond that and as I've written I'm just not convinced he has any handle on the big picture.

Steve P--may I ask why Passard wouldn't open in NYC a la the Ducasse model instead? Don't you think if and when a Passard (or Ferran Adria) were to open their restaurant in NYC offerring uncompromising modern creative cooking it would essentially be one service per evening? I do. The high end of NYC always defies the consumer market. And don't you think it might not necessarily be progress valued at this high end but the premium itself?

[John Whiting]

SteveP wrote

As for "the final invoice," I find that the food industry, in all of it's silly attempts at mdernizing and creating items fit for a mass market, has done very little to hurt mother earth.

That's one of the Six Impossible Things that an optimistic capitalist must believe before breakfast.

[robert brown]

Steve, Great restaurants (indeed even lesser restaurants) have always had one seating unless a party came in off the street for a late couple of courses and a table was vacant or had been vacated. I think the difference in once being able to survive with no turning tables is the diminished opportunity for chefs to earn money outside of their restaurants. As for comparing veal chops and vegetables, there is always a large premium for the "marginal" difference. The problem these days is that much of what you are paying the difference for, such as service, is debased by falling standards.

Lxt and AHR: We could have endless discussion on the concept of "technique versus soul". My quick answer is that we are seeing more of the former to the lack of the latter. I am wondering if it is an by-product of the foodie boom in which the relatively unsophisticated are impressed obvious technique and what appears as novel. I can feel the discussion returning to Adria et al. But I am going to step back and cogitate on this for the time being.

[hollywood]

That leverage over the market is fading proportionate to how much New World wines are improving.

Voila! I think I hear a minor concession to New World wines.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve Klc - The problem with Passard opening the Ducasse model is that a place like Craft has opened at a much better quality for value price point. Okay, it isn't the same application of culinary technique that goes on at Passard but, I don't think New Yorkers would find what Passard does to be worth 3X the price of a chef's menu at Craft.

I think that is the whole issue in a nutshell. If I can go to a place like Craft and Chez Panisse etc. at a $100 price point for the best artisinal ingredients to be had in the states, or I can go to Jean-Georges or Daniel for a $150 price point, what would make me want to spend $300? In France, since I don't live here, it's all part of a fun trip. But if I lived here, how often would I eat like this? I can't quite put my finger on it and I'm not sure if what is driving it is the cost of ingredients, the high cost of labor to make everything perfect all of the time, the cost of service, taxes, etc., I'm not sure. But there seems to be something acutely out of balance with the price/quality ratio here.

Robert B. - Well are the standards falling or are we just getting better at it?

I had lunch at Jacque Melac today and my Chou Farci was fine. But I could have been eating it anywhere. I know much of the food here has been commercialized, but don't we have better products stateside as well?

[Bux]

Unfortunately Debussy’s advice “to preserve the mystery” when “touching” the music, plunging into the meaning behind the notes or bringing passages to life is no longer an important element for many contemporary pianists and is no longer valued as much as the ability to blandly race the metronome.  Quite disappointing.  Is this really what's happening with today's approach to evaluating chefs?

It may just the reverse and I don't think it has that much to do with globalization. Here in the US, we don't prize technique enough and tend to reward creativity. Our criticism of the French not changing fast enough is made in the face of too many chefs in the states who create awful, but clever, food with a lack of basic technical skills and an under developed palate.

[marcus]

Paris during its greatest restaurant years was always filled with mediocre restaurants. Jacques Melac and L'Affriole although they have a certain atmosphere and charm are mediocre. I don't believe that focusing on such restaurants provides any insight at all into the state of French gastronomy which is a question targeted at questions regarcing excellence and leadership.

[Bux]

It isn't novelty that is valued, it is forward motion. Progress is what everyone values.

Patent nonesense. Progress is what everyone thinks they value. Progress is in the mind of the beholder perhaps. Froward motion is dependant on which way you turn your head.

[Bux]

Bux wrote

Quite simply, globalization, or homogenization means that things are the same all over to an increased extent. In terms of regional differences it means they disappear. In terms of quality, it means a trend towards a uniform quality. If you were a leader in a field, it means everyone is catching up or you're being pulled down. Obviously, globalization has it's effect on the state of French dining. It becomes less distinctive.

Bux, John – Are you suggesting that globalization promotes mediocrity, as in facilitating lowering standards? In fact, it should stimulate raising them.

No, I'm being pulled into a discussion of a quote that really doesn't apply well to the restaurant situation, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss your question. Certain standards will be raised, but there will also be a sort of homogenization that tends to lull the palate. This is related to the all year fresh tomato syndrome. Today we get fresh tomatoes that don't taste as good as canned. We get used to it and accept them as what tomatoes taste like and eventually people stop looking for great tomatoes in the summer. Of course eGullet members search out the best local summer tomatoes and some of us just won't buy the inferior winter ones, but we're not typical. I think the same thing happens with regional foods. We get commerical versions and stop supporting the real ones. Between music and restaurants there's only a bad analogy that will just get us further offtrack however.

[hollywood]

It isn't novelty that is valued, it is forward motion. Progress is what everyone values.

Patent nonesense. Progress is what everyone thinks they value. Progress is in the mind of the beholder perhaps. Forward motion is dependent on which way you turn your head.

Yeah, where's Thomas Hardy when we need him.

[Bux]

I don't think New Yorkers would find what Passard does to be  worth 3X the price of a chef's menu at Craft.

I think that is the whole issue in a nutshell. If I can go to a place like Craft and Chez Panisse etc. at a $100 price point for the best artisinal ingredients to be had in the states, or I can go to Jean-Georges or Daniel for a $150 price point, what would make me want to spend $300? In France, since I don't live here, it's all part of a fun trip. But if I lived here, how often would I eat like this? I can't quite put my finger on it and I'm not sure if what is driving it is the cost of ingredients, the high cost of labor to make everything perfect all of the time, the cost of service, taxes, etc., I'm not sure. But there seems to be something acutely out of balance with the price/quality ratio here.

But there are people in NYC who will tell you that there's something acutely out of balance with the price/quality ratio between Daniel and Grand Sichuan. It's in the nature of excellence for it often to be outside the point of diminishing returns. It's also a simple fact of life and business, if you can separate the two, that tourists, vacationers and travelers are far more easily separated from their money than when these same people are at home. Look at all the shit they buy, they never wear or use when they get home and which they wouldn't buy at home. This is why the three star restaurants of France have long depended on tourism for their financial success.

In Chinatown I can get a fish in a restaurant that is alive and swimming when I place my order. How can le Bernardin justify its prices? I assure you it can.

[robert brown]

Steve P, what's driving these guys is greed for the most part. As I wrote a few days ago, if the French dropped the VAT from 19.5 to 5.5%, the restuarateurs would raise their price 10%. You knock service and VAT from 300 euros and you're down to 200 euros; put back, say, 40 euros for a tip and 16.5 euros for the 8-1/4% sales tax we pay in New York City and you would be at 256.5 euros. Craft's tasting menu would be $100 + 20 + 8.50=128.50. On a level field, a 300 euro Parisian menu is really twice what a $100. New York tasting menu is, given $-euro parity. Maybe the next thing to go at the expensive restaurants is the single-seating seance.

While we're at it, how do you find wine-list prices relatively speaking?

[lxt]

The economy of France has not experienced a hyper-growth period such as the United States, Great Britain, Ireland and even the Netherlands during the late 1990s.

Not only that but the dynamics of business have changed all over the world and sponsors who are interested in a faster profit return rather than in building a long-term stable business, refuse to invest in a restaurant that isn’t going to profit quickly. If 10 years ago a standard time-frame for the investor to feel comfortable backing a restaurant until the fruits of labor are appreciated was 5 years, now if the restaurant is not successful and operating at a full capacity in a year or two, backers simply withdraw and are no longer interested.

I can't quite put my finger on it and I'm not sure if what is driving it is the cost of ingredients, the high cost of labor to make everything perfect all of the time, the cost of service, taxes, etc., I'm not sure. But there seems to be something acutely out of balance with the price/quality ratio here.

It is all of the above. Falling turnover, higher wages, more expensive raw materials constitute a profit margin fall. Economic rules are cruel in their predictability. It tops with a relatively narrow “fan club” of people interested in haute cuisine. According to Van Laer the owner of Maxence “haute gastronomy is like haute couture – it doesn’t pay.”

On top of everything, a highly socialized economic structure in France doesn’t seem to encourage young people to invest their effort in the business of cooking. Shortage of talent is inevitable and is currently an acute problem, as the graduates of cooking schools prefer to work in institutional kitchens (hospitals etc.). It seems that comfortable existence takes over one’s ambition for perfection and creativity if not encouraged financially. According to some sources, an estimated 70,000 to 80,000 restaurant jobs in the country are currently unfilled.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux -I think that much to your chagrin, there is a clear line as to what progress is and when it takes place. Heart valve replacement meant real progress. It wasn't in the eye of the beholder. Same with men on the moon. No way to describe it other then progress. Same when Robuchon made his mashed potatoes. But of course you need taste buds to be able to know that one because it isn't as obvious as walking on the moon. But it's progress nonetheless. Is also isn't just relative. There is a difference in the fish you get in Chinatown and what you get at Le Bernadin. Chinese restaurants are not using artisinal ingredients. The issue is how much on an increment are people willing to pay for theat bit of better quality.

Marcus - Well France was always the leader for excellence and leadership at the mediocre level as well. I mean Chez Georges is mediocre, but very enjoyable at the same time.

Robert B. - Wine list prices aren't bad. We drank 2000 Niellon Chevalier Montrachet for 217 euro which is less then the retail price in the U.S. Last night we drank 1995 Raveneau Chablis Valmur for 88 euros which I thought was a steal. But Bordeaux is typically overpriced here.

[robert brown]

Steve. Vrinat judged a 2000 Niellon Chevalier-Montrachet ready to drink (or drinkable)? How was It?

Lxt. Where is Maxence?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Robert - No that was at Arpege. I had the Raveneau at Taillevent.

Lxt - Did you get the name of the restaurant wrong? Van Laer cooks at Ledoyen or one of those newly promoted restaurants doesn't he? Otherwise, I find your frequent potshots at socialism almost as intrusive as John Whiting's constant potshots at capitalism

Here is the question that I have for the braintrust here. And that includes all of you. Why is a beet roasted in a salt crust haute cuisine? I'm just picking that one dish that Passard makes as an example. It's a great thing to eat, but where is the haute cuisine there? Or some perfectly cooked spinach with some sesame served with a small portion of carrots flavored with ginger. Delicious yes. Haute cuisine? Or was the veal chop I had at Taillevent last night really haute cuisine? Or my wife's cousin' Bouillon de Legumes avec Pistou, is that haute cuisine? Yes, the Mousee of Avocado and Caviar stuffed with Ossetra that Passard served was glorious haute cuisine. Same with the Saucisson d'Homard at Taillevent, that too. But I can have a similar veal chop with shallots and mushrooms at a number of places for 40% of the price of the one at Taillevent. And I am really questioning whether the price differential is worth paying. It obviosuly is when the food is unique, meaning you can't get it elsewhere. But what to do when you can get it elsewhere? Or if it's not the same, something close enough.

[marcus]

Steve - Your comment regarding leading at the mediocre level is quite intriguing and novel and I need to think about it. I'm not sure whether or not it has any important implications for the overall question as to the state of French dining.

With regard to wine price comparisons, my observation is that Champagne and Rhone wines are significantly less expensive in France and Bordeaux are slightly more expensive. Robert Parker's influence has pushed Rhones to astronomical levels in the US, such that France can appear cheap. I had a bottle of 1990 Guigal La Turque for 1200 francs at Roellinger within the last 2 years. On the same trip, Ducasse had 1978 La Chapelle on his wine list for 2000 francs which has been selling at auction in NY for over $500 for the last 5 years. For Bordeaux, I find that first growths sell at a greater premium in France than in the US where vintage year and WS/WA ratings can have more of an effect. So if you know your super seconds and can pick through a wine list you will find values. I found a 1989 Clinet at La Tour D'Argent for 226 euros last December, but I would definitively not recommend the restaurant.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Marcus - Those are all great wines where none of them are ready to drink. But I agree with you. There are buys to be had at restaurants where the lists aren't picked over. Fortunately I drink Burgundy so those overpriced First Growths don't bother me .

[marcus]

Maxence is a really excellent 1 star restaurant in the sixth and has a Flemish chef, probably Van Laer. I recommend the restaurant highly and suggest ordering a la carte rather than from the price fixed menu. My wife and I did one of each, and the a la carte dish was better in every case.

[marcus]

Steve -- Ready to drink is a whole nother subject which I am going to defer debating with you.