Dashi, soy sauce, mirin ratios

[Hiroyuki]

Hiroyuki- I'll have to ask Mom if she remembers the ratios the next time I call her. Mom is notorious for "approximate measurements" rather than really measuring things.

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I used to be like your mom, and I am still like her sometimes. As I become more serious about cooking, I'm more inclined to stick to certain ratios so that I can reproduce the same flavors anytime just like a professional chef.

For example, when I made simmered hijiki last night, I followed the dashi, soy sauce, and mirin ratio of 10:1:1 that was mentioned in the book, but when I made simmered kabocha tonight, I didn't follow the 15:1:1 ratio mentioned in the book, because I wanted to make it my way: just about right amount of sugar first, and then just about right amount of soy sauce and no dashi.

[Hiroyuki]

Supper last night

Kinpira with a soy sauce and mirin ratio of 1:1 (40 ml each)

Komatsuna no goma ae with a sesame seed, soy sauce, and sugar ratio of 4:2:1 (4 tbsp sesame seed, 2 tbsp soy sauce, and 1 1/2 sugar)

(I wanted to buy spinach, but it was 198 yen a pack, so I bough komatsuna instead, which was 98 yen.)

Chicken thigh teriyaki with a soy sauce, mirin, and sake ratio of 1:1:1 (40 ml each)

I bought nama (raw and unseasoned) ikura for my daughter, who is the only one in my family who cares for ikura. I didn't know that nama ikura was not seasoned . When my daughter tasted one, she said, "Mazui" (not tasty). So, I had to season it . I googled and found a number of ratios for "ikura no shoyu zuke", and decided to use a soy sauce, sake, and mirin ratio of 3:1:0.5.

My daughter tasted it this morning, and said it was delicious.

[kbjesq]

Hiroyuki, your supper from last night looks delicious. Tonight, I was in a hurry because I had a meeting after work. I put the ingredients for this "mushroom rice with dried tofu" in the rice cooker and went to my meeting. Dinner was ready when I got home.

The recipe (for 4 cups of rice in the rice cooker) is: 3 cups of dashi, 2 tbs. of soy sauce, 4 tsp. of sake plus minced dried mushrooms and tofu. I think that means the ratio is somewhere around 16:2:1.

I was disappointed to realize that I only had basmati rice available (and a 10 lb bag at that) but I didn't have time to worry about it. I had to forge ahead with the ingredients on hand. It was very tasty, but I think that I would have enjoyed the texture much more with a medium grain rice.

[Hiroyuki]

Looks delicious, kbjesq! Takikomi gohan of any kind makes my mouth water.

Just one suggestion: Add an oily ingredient like abura age (fried bean curd) or chicken, and the oil will make a thin coating on each grain of the rice, which makes it even more delicious. I, for one, think that abura age is the necessary ingredient of any takikomi gohan, and I think many Japanese will agree.

[Hiroyuki]

Tonight's supper

Nameko mushroom and tofu miso soup

Yellowtail teriyaki

Sauce: 1:1:1 mixture of soy sauce, mirin, and sake (60 ml each)

Potato salad

Chrysanthemum flower (called kakinomoto or mottenohoka here in the Uonuma region) ohitashi

Sauce:

100 ml dashi

3 tbsp soy sauce

1 tbsp sugar

[Ce'nedra]

Hiroyuki: Your meal looks both delicious and healthy I'm getting alot of Japanese inspiration from you. Oh and how in the world did I miss your Chicken thigh teriyaki et al meal above?! Looks wonderful -shall try to make that too.

Btw, komatsuna no goma ae reminds me alot of Korean food for some reason.

[torakris]

maybe it is because I am so bad at math (and I mean embarrassingly bad) that I shun using ratios. The only recipe that I really use ratios for is this one I put in recipeGullet for a Pork and Cucumber Wasabi Salad.

The ratio is simple 1:1:1 (soy sauce, mirin, rice vinegar)

This is an incredibly healthy (no oil added) and versatile salad. Though the recipe calls for pork, you can also use beef, shredded chicken or even seafood. Instead of or in addition to the cucumber, you can use any type of lettuce (I really love mizuna), shredded/julienned carrots, thin slices of onion, etc.

The wasabi can be replaced with the condiment of your choice, I also use yuzu-koshou and the new yuzu-wasabi product in a tube.

[helenjp]

You couldn't be worse than I am at math (it certainly didn't help that I "saved" my math exercise book to use for sketching...), but I much prefer to use a ratio that I can memorize. I've been trying to finalize a chart for ages, but keep getting diverted by variations - Hiroyuki, do you have a handy chart of the different proportions you use for different dishes?

[Ce'nedra]

Umm...guys, I don't even use ratios because I can't think in terms of fractions and so on

[Hiroyuki]

You couldn't be worse than I am at math (it certainly didn't help that I "saved" my math exercise book to use for sketching...), but I much prefer to use a ratio that I can memorize. I've been trying to finalize a chart for ages, but keep getting diverted by variations - Hiroyuki, do you have a handy chart of the different proportions you use for different dishes?

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A chart? Do you need one? OK, I'll make one for you later. Sorry, I'm drunk now.

[v. gautam]

I have a question about the dashi in the proposed chart. Hiroyuki-san indicated that his daily go-to dashi is the commercial powder, in 600 ml of water. I find that this powder itself has glucose, sugar etc. in its ingredients list [ Hon Dashi powder].

Therefore, if people were using plain kombu, sardine, or kombu-bonito dashi, i guess the chart would need to be adjusted a bit?

Also, would the chart be standardized on mirin-fu, and does it really make any difference if any other mirin is used?

I know this is a really really stupid question that has been brought up before, but still continues to vex me somehow.

The beauty or ingenuity of both sake and mirin, especially the latter, is the tandem saccharization and fermentation: this is the original "right on time" concept of assembly line manufacure later made famous by Japan!

one set of microbes breaks down the starch to sugars

another set ferments the sugars to alcohol

For Mirin, additional alcohol is introduced to regulate the process towards the saccharification half: at least that is the traditional method, giving rise to the complex range of sugars and flavor components.

Today, industrial HON-MIRIN, to say nothing of Mirin-fu, is actually a one-step process where the koji and distilled grain spirits (actually, the cheapest 40% ethanol available, from potatoes, tapioca, whatever) are simultaneously loaded into fermentation vats and held for a short period to create a mirin-type material containing sugar and alcohol that satisfies regulatory requirements.

This process sort of precludes the prolonged saccharification cum fermentation that defines mirin, and forcibly creates a MIRIN product just as hydrolysis of soybean proteins creates commercial shoyu.

So, other than the very expensive organic traditional mirin, I remain quite confused as to what MIRIN actually is nowadays.

'Good' quality hon-mirin is sold with 6-8% alcohol and a relatively high price, reputable brand names, but to my taste, it is an industrial product smelling like wood spirits. Cooking with it is fine, but not really distinguished, expect to those Japanese expatriates in the US conditioned from infancy to fear the absence of mirin, perhaps?

Reputable comapnies (Kikkoman) in the US sell something called Kotterin-mirin, the first ingredient of which is corn syrup! I have used it, and cannot say anything more about it.

The good quality Mirin-fu used by Hiroyuki-san is not readily available in the US.

When we follow the traditional japanese prescription of boiling off the alcohol, using the "good" Kikkoman hon-mirin, we are merely boiling off some extraneously added raw alcohol and are left with a tiny fraction of native rice sugars plus a load of added sugars, none of the latter from koji fermentation.

A bit of a hoax, some would say, no worse than adding your own sugars, including amazake, to sake?

gautam

Edited October 7, 2007 by v. gautam (log)

[Hiroyuki]

Helen, first of all, did you check out post #2 in this thread?

For those of you who can read Japanese, here are links to some nice webpages on this subject:

Kikkoman's webpage on recipes using a soy sauce and mirin ratio of 1:1.

Aji no ogonhi (Golden ratio for seasoning), which discusses that the golden ratio for seasoning is a soy sauce and mirin ratio of 1:1.

Aji no tane akashi (Revealing the tricks for seasoning), which describes happo (versatile) dashi (8:1:1 mixture of dashi, soy sauce, and mirin) and more.

Here is a book devoted to this subject:

Wariai de oboeru wa no kihon, written by Yoshihiro Murata.

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Here is a list of some of my favorite ratios:

Soy sauce and mirin ratio = 1:1

Dipping sauce for nori

Kinpira

Dashi, soy sauce, and mirin ratio = 1:1:1

Teriyaki (chicken, yellowtail, etc.)

Chicken karaage

Pork shoga yaki

4:1:1

Dipping sauce for soba, udon, etc.

Dipping sauce for tempura

8:1:1

This ratio results in happou dashi (versatile dashi). Good for all simmered dishes.

Niku jaga, satoimo no nikkorogashi (simmered taro)

10:1:1

Hijiki, kiriboshi daikon, okara, komatsuna no nibitashi

12:1:1

Soup for hot soba, udon, etc.

15:1:1

Oden

Miscellaneous

Soy sauce, mirin, and citrus juice ratio = 1:1:1

Dressing

Soy sauce, vinegar, and sesame oil = 3:3:1

Dressing

Soy sauce, mirin, ground sesame seed ratio = 1:1:1

Goma ae

[Hiroyuki]

I have a question about the dashi in the proposed chart. Hiroyuki-san indicated that his daily go-to dashi is the commercial powder, in 600 ml of water. I find that this powder itself has glucose, sugar etc. in its ingredients list [ Hon Dashi powder].

Therefore, if people were using plain kombu, sardine, or kombu-bonito dashi, i guess the chart would need to be adjusted a bit?

Also, would the chart be standardized on mirin-fu, and does it really make any difference if any other mirin is used?

I know this is a really really stupid question that has been brought up before, but still continues to vex me somehow.

The beauty or ingenuity of both sake and mirin, especially the latter, is the tandem saccharization  and fermentation: this is the original "right on time" concept of assembly line manufacure later made famous by Japan!

one set of microbes breaks down the starch to sugars

another set ferments the sugars to alcohol

For Mirin, additional alcohol is introduced to regulate the process towards the saccharification half: at least that is the traditional method, giving rise to the complex range of sugars and flavor components.

Today, industrial HON-MIRIN, to say nothing of Mirin-fu, is actually a one-step process where the koji and distilled grain spirits (actually, the cheapest 40% ethanol available, from potatoes, tapioca, whatever) are simultaneously loaded into fermentation vats and held for a short period to create a mirin-type material containing sugar and alcohol that satisfies regulatory requirements.

This process sort of precludes the prolonged saccharification cum fermentation that defines mirin, and forcibly creates a MIRIN product just as hydrolysis of soybean proteins creates commercial shoyu.

So, other than the very expensive organic traditional mirin, I remain quite confused as to what MIRIN actually is nowadays.

'Good' quality hon-mirin is sold with 6-8% alcohol and a relatively high price, reputable brand names, but to my taste, it is an industrial product smelling like wood spirits. Cooking with it is fine, but not really distinguished, expect to those Japanese expatriates in the US conditioned from infancy to fear the absence of mirin, perhaps?

Reputable comapnies (Kikkoman) in the US sell something called Kotterin-mirin, the first ingredient of which is  corn syrup! I have used it, and cannot say anything more about it.

The good quality Mirin-fu used by Hiroyuki-san is not readily available in the US.

When we follow the traditional japanese prescription of boiling off the alcohol, using the "good" Kikkoman hon-mirin, we are merely boiling off some extraneously added raw alcohol and are left with a tiny fraction of native rice sugars plus a load of added sugars, none of the latter from koji fermentation.

A bit of a hoax, some would say, no worse than adding your own sugars, including amazake, to sake?

gautam

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I can't give you a definitive answer. I tried to find out the glucose content of instant dashi, but in vain. A manufacturer (Shimaya) does give this information on its website: This product is salted, so adjust the salt depending on the dish.

Suppose that instant dashi contains 3% glucose, I think that the increase in sweetness due to the instant dashi is negligible. Besides, I have no idea how much glucose real dashi contains.

As for the mirin vs. mirin-fu question, I have used a hon-mirin (14% alcochol content), a newer type of mirin-fu (8% content), and an older type (less than 1%) so far, but I really cannot tell the difference among them!

As for your other questions, I will respond when I have more time!

[nakji]

I made these chicken meatballs I picked up at the supermarket with a 1:1 soy:mirin ratio for the sauce. I put a tablespoon of sugar in, as well. They were scrumptious! Next time I won't put the sauce on the plate, though, as it was quite salty after it had reduced. I think I'll use better quality soy sauce the next time around, as well. But I was pretty thrilled with how they tasted!

Thanks, Hiroyuki, this thread has been really helpful, especially now that I'm cooking in Japan.

[Hiroyuki]

I made these chicken meatballs I picked up at the supermarket with a 1:1 soy:mirin ratio for the sauce. I put a tablespoon of sugar in, as well. They were scrumptious! Next time I won't put the sauce on the plate, though, as it was quite salty after it had reduced. I think I'll use better quality soy sauce the next time around, as well. But I was pretty thrilled with how they tasted!

Thanks, Hiroyuki, this thread has been really helpful, especially now that I'm cooking in Japan.

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They sure look delicious! A bit of sansho may make them even more delicious.

You mean you are in Japan?

[Hiroyuki]

gautam wrote some interesting questions and comments about mirin, but they were quite wordy, so I reduced them to the following:

Q1:  Also, would the chart be standardized on mirin-fu, and does it really make any difference if any other mirin is used?

Q2:  So, other than the very expensive organic traditional mirin, I remain quite confused as to what MIRIN actually is nowadays.

Comment 1:  The good quality Mirin-fu used by Hiroyuki-san is not readily available in the US.

Comment 2:  When we follow the traditional japanese prescription of boiling off the alcohol, using the "good" Kikkoman hon-mirin, we are merely boiling off some extraneously added raw alcohol and are left with a tiny fraction of native rice sugars plus a load of added sugars, none of the latter from koji fermentation.

Other than the traditional mirin (Kristin talks about her 3-year-old mirin in the mirin thread), we have in Japan:

1. Hon mirin

Alcohol content: 13% or greater

Sugar content: 40 to 50%

40-60 days to make it.

2. Hakko chomiryo (fermented seasoning)

Alcohol content: 1% or greater

(The one shown in the photo has 8.5% alcohol.)

Sugar content: 30 to 40%

Salt content: Approx 2%

3. Mirin-fu chomiryo (mirin-like seasoning)

Alcohol content: Less than 1%

Sugar content: 60% or greater (55% or greater from another source)

Right: Hon mirin, 14% alcohol content.

Middle: Hakko chomiryo, 8.5% alcohol content, approx. 2% salt content.

This particular product says it's a jozo chomiryo (brewed chomiryo).

Left: Mirin-fu chomiryo, less than 1% alcohol content.

Judging from that fact that hon mirin has a sugar content of 40 to 50% and mirin-fu 55 to 60% or greater, the answer to Q1 should be yes, (but I really didn't notice any difference when I used hon mirin.)

The answer to Q2 is as described above. I usually use mirin-fu chomiryo, which is the cheapest of the four types and is probably the easiest to use because it doesn't contain any alcohol.

Response to comment 1: I've never said that my mirin-fu chomiryo is of good quality, but recently I found this sentence on the label:

This product has been developed for professional use.

Respose to comment 2: Needless to say, when you simply boil off the alcohol of mirin and then combine it with other ingredients, you can't get the benefits of using mirin, but mirin has some very useful effects like masking odor and preventing ingredients from disintegrating (because of its alcohol) and glazing (because of its sugar).

I must admit that the more I learn about mirin, the more inclined I am to buy a bottle of traditional mirin. The only obstacle is, of course, the price.

[v. gautam]

Thank you very much, Hiroyuki-san. As you note, the price of real mirin is the issue, and the impostors are quite exasperating.

Even the stuff that is produced in 40-60 days is not "real", merely extraneous alcohol added to koji at the outset, which then gets boiled off in the traditional manner.

Did you notice in one product that out of the 60% sugar, 55% came from elsewhere, i.e. not from koji saccharification? That was just what I had mentioned, about the relative proportions of native sugars to added sugar.

I think to myself: Why am I paying $$ for raw alcohol and cane sugar (with some label attached) combined with a small fraction of actual "mirin" in the fond hope that I am cooking with mirin?

Which is why I thought of using either using more sake and the natural rice sugar, amazake (?) for the alcohol and glaze;

Or, trying to brew a small batch of mirin in a 5-gallon carboy during the winter when regulating temperature becomes easier .

In our area, we have an organization called FreeCycle, and I notice, occasionally, home winemakers trying to get rid of their appurtenances, probably strongly encouraged by their spouses, hence the altruistic urge!!!

It might be interesting to do a brown rice koji and see what happens. Or a mixture of brown and white. Nowadays good quality koji cultures are available here. What do you think?

gautam

[Hiroyuki]

It might be interesting to do a brown rice koji and see what happens. Or a mixture of brown and white. Nowadays good quality koji cultures are available here. What do you think?

gautam

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I don't know what to say. I've never heard of brown rice koji.

Mirin making sounds so simple and straightforward, at least according to this guy (Japanese only), who likes to make anything by himself.

The main ingredients are:

600 cc 35-proof shochu

200 to 300 g rice malt

360 cc (or approx. 320 g) mochi gome (glutinous rice)

This guy spent six months to make his.

In Japan, authentic, traditional mirin is not exhorbitantly expensive, around 1,000 yen per 500 ml, which is about 10 times more expensive as my current mirin-fu. So, my best bet will be to keep buying cheap mirin-fu and save some money to get a bottle of 3-year or even 10-year mirin some day. At this point, my only fear is that when I get one, I will probably want to drink it as an aperitif rather than in cooking.

I have a question to egullet members living/stantioned in Japan: What is the mirin (or mirin-like seasoning) of your choice, and why?

[helenjp]

What is the mirin (or mirin-like seasoning) of your choice, and why?

I'm not so much fussed about brands....but I would choose a hon-mirin made with shochu first (if I could find one in the supermarket - very rare so if I find one I hoard it), one made with food-grade alcohol for everyday use, and leave those which feature mizu-ame as the first ingredient on the shelf. Some mirin-fuu products fall into this last category, but some are excellent, such as "Aji no Haha". Mirin-fuu products also contain a little salt usually, and I prefer to add salt separately.

As long as you are using it with equal quantities of shoyu, I don't honestly think it matters too much.

I use mirin for lightly-seasoned dishes tooo, where the choice does show up more. For that kind of dish, mirin made with shochu is wonderful. Kuri kinton made with mirin is very good, and not as sickly and sweet as making it with sugar.

Gautam, these days there are some granulated dried instant dashi products which don't contain additives. I don't like the metallic taste of the old-style instant dashi, but the new ones are very handy for cooking packed lunches early in the morning!

Edited October 13, 2007 by helenjp (log)

[v. gautam]

Helen-san,

Thank you very much for that last bit of information. Perhaps when you have a minute, you might add a brand name or particulars. I find small-town Chinese groceries sometimes are ble to find stuff that they don't normally stock if one gives them a definite piece of ordering information.

Here is one little item of great historical interest: a monograph on brewing sake, mirin and shochu writtenby R.W. Atkinson, B.Sc. (Lond.)

Professor of Analytical and Applied Chemistry in Tokio Daigaku (1881).

The dawn of biochemistry when the word "enzyme" was unknown, posited to be a "hypothetical substance".

A great historical look at Japanese brewing history.

"Starch is a substance insoluble in water and incapable of undergoing fermentation directly, that is, of being converted into alcohol. In beer-making countries the conversion of the starch into a sugar from which alcohol can be produced is effected by the use of malt, a body formed by allowing the embryo of the barley grain to become partially developed, by which a change in the character of the grain occurs, as the result of which it becomes possessed of certain properties attributed to the existence of a hypothetical substance known as "diastase". The peculiarity of "diastase" is that it is a body containing nitrogen and having the power of rendering thick starch-paste liquid owing to the formation from it of the sugar maltose together with dextrin.

Other kinds of diastase occur, as for example in the saliva, and in the pancreas, and these forms, although they resemble in some respects the diastase contained in malt differ from it in other particulars. Thus, the diastase of malt is not able to cause maltose to take up water and so be converted into dextrose, but both the diastase of the saliva and of the pancreas effect the hydration of maltose and change it into dextrose. It is evident, therefore, that different kinds of diastase exist, and that it is not one substance only which possesses these properties."

http://brewery.org/library/sake/cover.htm

g

[Hiroyuki]

I use mirin for lightly-seasoned dishes tooo, where the choice does show up more. For that kind of dish, mirin made with shochu is wonderful. Kuri kinton made with mirin is very good, and not as sickly and sweet as making it with sugar.

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Thanks, Helen, but do you make kuri kinton using only mirin as a sweetener? Isn't mirin something that you add in small quantities toward the end of the making? Have you ever tried mizu ame or other sweeteners and compared the difference?

[nakji]

Yes, Hiroyuki, I'm living in Tokyo now. I made nikomi hamburger tonight for dinner, which was a hit with my husband. No photo, since the plate looks almost exactly like the one I posted of the meatballs above. I found carrots on sale for 98 yen/bag, so we've been eating a lot of them. I made a mistake in the sauce, and put vinegar in instead of mirin ( the bottles look quite similar next to each other - I should have read the label first!) but I just added more sugar, and it tasted great. I ended up scraping the pan with the leftover rice!

[Hiroyuki]

Yes, Hiroyuki, I'm living in Tokyo now. I made nikomi hamburger tonight for dinner, which was a hit with my husband. No photo, since the plate looks almost exactly like the one I posted of the meatballs above. I found carrots on sale for 98 yen/bag, so we've been eating a lot of them. I made a mistake in the sauce, and put vinegar in instead of mirin ( the bottles look quite similar next to each other - I should have read the label first!) but I just added more sugar, and it tasted great. I ended up scraping the pan with  the leftover rice!

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OK, so why not post a photo of the mirin of your choice?

[nakji]

I will, but I've just discovered that I don't have the right converter for my camera charger. D'oh!

I can tell you that it was Mizkan brand, and it says hon teri in hiregana on the label. And of course, there are numerous kanji that I can't read.

It was very cheap.

[Hiroyuki]

I will, but I've just discovered that I don't have the right converter for my camera charger. D'oh!

I can tell you that it was Mizkan brand, and it says hon teri in hiregana on the label. And of course, there are numerous kanji that I can't read.

It was very cheap.

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I got it, thanks!

This one! Mirin-fu not hon mirin