The punt and its history in glass

[Don Giovanni]

While at the J. Paul Getty Museum

1200 Getty Center Drive

Los Angeles, CA 90049-1687

The Punt and it's history in glass and the color green.

I observed waldglas or forest glass The search for the punt and the bottle and the use of glassClick On Me it was a 5 ounce glass with a punt in it the date of this glass was estimated at 1480-1520. I also came across a beaker with a punt 1400's.

The worlds oldest bottle of wine was found near Spayer, Germany, inside Roman stone sarcophagus the bottle was from 325 AD and was found in 1867...no punt.

So I think that with sparkling wine came the need for the punt.

I have found this information and just don't know if it true. People write history and manipulate it. So

Quote:

As early as 1630 a retired British Admiral, Sir Robert Mansell, while searching for a way to make coloured glass had invented a manufacturing process incorporating the use of iron and manganese which resulted in English glass bottles being much stronger than those being manufactured in France at that time.

the Brit linkClick On Me

What I found very interesting is that glass in the north Germany etc. was green

Quote:

With the sand ferric oxides came into the mixture, which colors the glass green in quantities of less than 0.1 %.

Could this be the reason for our green glass today?

So with my observations at the museum I have concluded that the punt was a technology breakthrough in the glass world and this was due to the high pressure in the bottle of sparkling wine. The pressures I believe the pressure of a sparkling wine is up to 6 atmospheres ( one atmosphere is equal to 14.7 PSI) to the min of 2 atmospheres and this did cause glass without a punt to explode.

The punt would do the trick and as it was adopted as early as the 1400's I would conclude that sparkling wine under glass was invented before this time.....leading to the use of the punt. Thus the punt shows up in a glass that I saw from the 1480's and from the beaker with a punt 1400's. The only reason for this was due to the changing the way the glass was made in manufacturing due to the sparkling wine under glass problem.

Conclusion, I have dated the first use of the punt and sparkling wine was the catalyst. No one knows for sure, but this is my best attempt to date the punt and give reason for it as well as the color green being prominent in glass today. If anyone has other information I am all ears and love to learn.

last I found this Wine evolutionClick On Me

[Rebel Rose]

Hi, John! Thank you for joining us, and for the informative post. I, too, had been told that the punt evolved with champagne under glass, and was then adopted by other bottle makers, but I had never given the history of glass much thought (other than trying to memorize the names of all the French, Italian, and Champagne big bottles )

And I see you have mastered the art of linking in your very first post. Bravo!

For those of you who have not "met" John online yet, he is a New York/Finger Lakes winemaker.

[ChefJohnny]

Time for a little punt related trivia!!!

What is the only Champagne that DOES NOT have a punt?

::: Final Jeopardy song plays :::

-Chef Johnny

[Adam Balic]

For a tight seal required for the production of sparkling wine, would you not also require cork? Widespread use of cork was a pretty late development, so I can imagine that a punt was incorporated into some bottle designs (for strength) well before the the development of cork closures and sparkling wine? The beaker obviously doesn't contain a punt related to champagne production.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Adam Balic (log)

[Don Giovanni]

No No NO..you got this wrong......

My friend the cork dates back to over 2,000 years it's first use is in china for fishing the Egyptians used cork as a closure thousands of years ago for wine. Your information on cork is a bit off .... get up to speed and you will retract your post...

[Adam Balic]

Cork oaks have been around for a long time and there is evidence that it has been used sporadically though in the last few thousand years as a closure, but widespread use of it as a closure in wine bottles is largely an 18th century phenomena.

Without widespread use of quality cork closures in Champagne, then the punt isn't of much use. I'm not sure when cork became the closure of choice in Champagne, but didn't the Dom die at the begining of the 18th century?

[Don Giovanni]

Cork oaks have been around for a long time and there is evidence that it has been used sporadically though in the last few thousand years as a closure, but widespread use of it as a closure in wine bottles is largely an 18th century phenomena.

Without widespread use of  quality cork closures in Champagne, then the punt isn't of much use. I'm not sure when cork became the closure of choice in Champagne, but didn't the Dom die at the begining of the 18th century?

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Dom Pierre Pérignon (circa 1638–1715

fair use free source....Click On Me

Misconceptions and Myths

Bottle of Moët et Chandon's Dom Pérignon

The quote attributed to him—"Come quickly, I am drinking the stars!"—is supposedly what he said when tasting the first sparkling champagne. However, the first appearance of that quote appears to have been in a print advertisement in the late 1800s by the producer of Dom Pérignon Champagne. While the Dom did work tirelessly and successfully to improve the quality and renown of the still wines of Champagne, he did not invent sparkling wine, nor was he the first to make champagne. Indeed he worked hard to prevent a secondary fermentation which was seen as a fault and most likely to break the wine bottles. [5] New documentary evidence suggests that a fizzy or sparkling wine was first made in England at least several decades before it was produced in France.

A major proponent of the misconceptions surrounding Dom Pérignon came from one of his successors at the Abbey of Hautvillers, Dom Groussard, who in 1821 gave an account of Dom Pérignon "inventing" Champagne among other exaggerated tales about the Abbey in order to garner historical importance and prestige for the church. [1] The myths about Pérignon being the first to use corks and being able to name the precise vineyard by tasting a single grape likely originated from Groussard's account. [6]

Prior to blending he would taste the grapes without knowing the source vineyard to avoid influencing his perceptions. References to his "blind tasting of wine" have led to the common misconception that Dom Pérignon was blind.

Contrary to popular belief, Dom Pérignon did not introduce blending to Champagne wines but rather the innovation of blending the grapes prior to sending them to press. [7]

This time line confirmes my theory.....about the punt and first use...

[Rebel Rose]

Adam, I believe you are right about the widespread use of cork in wine flasks, but there is (reputedly, I don't remember where I read this right now) a history of limited use of cork in the Baltic region dating back much further. However, wine flasks or bottles used to be sealed with a variety of stoppers--glass or clay mainly--and seated with hot wax or in some cases, pitch. Some of these seals may have been strong enough that a blown bottle would crack at the base, where there would be more surface area for the wine to push against, more exposed irregularities in the glass, and the weakness of the seam between the wall of the bottle and its base.

[JohnL]

Don G.

The punt was a result of the glass blowing technique. A pontil or wooden stick was used to secure the bottom of the glass as it was "spun and blown."

It has been there since glass was first blown by hand.

It appears in still wine bottles before the advent of Champagne.

[Don Giovanni]

Don G.

The punt was a result of the glass blowing technique. A pontil or wooden stick was used to secure the bottom of the glass as it was "spun and blown."

It has been there since glass was first blown by hand.

It appears in still wine bottles before the advent of Champagne.

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John,

I must disagree as I have documented the oldest bottle of wine ever found and look no punt... I doubt that they were using moulds back then also, so I stand by my theory.

The worlds oldest bottle of wine was found near Spayer, Germany, inside Roman stone sarcophagus the bottle was from 325 AD and was found in 1867...no punt.

[JohnL]

If as you theorize, the punt was "invented" to strengthen the bottle for holding sparkling wines then why are there still wine bottles with punts?

My theory is the punt was invented to snuff out candles after a long evening of imbibing!

[Alchemist]

Time for a little punt related trivia!!!

What is the only Champagne that DOES NOT have a punt?

::: Final Jeopardy song plays :::

-Chef Johnny

←

What is Cristal?

Edit to respell a word.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Alchemist (log)

[Adam Balic]

Adam, I believe you are right about the widespread use of cork in wine flasks, but there is (reputedly, I don't remember where I read this right now) a history of limited use of cork in the Baltic region dating back much further.  However, wine flasks or bottles used to be sealed with a variety of stoppers--glass or clay mainly--and seated with hot wax or in some cases, pitch.  Some of these seals may have been strong enough that a blown bottle would crack at the base, where there would be more surface area for the wine to push against, more exposed irregularities in the glass, and the weakness of the seam between the wall of the bottle and its base.

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Sure, but it seems that those seals just were not great as a seal. The oldest glass bottle of wine that still contains it's contents (found at Speyer, Germany) has a layer of oil at the top to prevent oxidation of the contents, just like is speculated for in some amphora. When you look at how quickly the cork business developed around Europe in the 18th-19th century, you can work out that previous closures were just not that good in comparison.

I wonder if enough pressure would be generated to create sparkling wine in the style of 'modern' champagne in early modern times, given the dodgy closures. You can have bubbles in wine without the generation of huge internal pressures, I wonder if champagne was similar to these wines when the producers or sellers decided to market this feature of the wine and the internal pressure of the wine (and the amount of bubbles) increased over time as the bottle/closure technology improved. In other words if you are going to consider developemt of a specific piece of technology, you have to consider all it's component parts. I don't think that anybody would think that champagne just suddenly appeared in it's modern form in the 17th century (hence the Dom reference, which is a great example of people revising history to explain phenomena that they don't understand).

The bottom line is that the punt is a much stronger structure then the flat based bottle and also much more stable (even in the bell shaped 17th century English bottles). In the early wide based bottles, the punts are actually more of a dimple then a deep indentation, which makes me think that they are more likely to be an artifact of manufactor more then anything else. Without a lot of good evidence to suggest otherwise, it's presence doesn't have to based on it's use in sparkling wine. Having observed the bottom of a flat ended bottle of red wine drop off when I knocked it, I can imagine that the strength of the punt is quite useful.

For those that are interested, here (click on links for other bottles) are some images of some older bottles with punts (also called "kick-ups"), some of which would be unsuitable for high pressure contents.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Adam Balic (log)

[Don Giovanni]

Adam,

Source Jancis Robinson, the auther of the Oxford Companion to Wine third edition.

Cork was certainly known in Ancient greece, where, as in Ancient egypt, great care was taken to provide amphorae with a wide variety of airtight stoppers. Roman authors such as cato, writing in the 2nd century bc, refer to the need to seal jars with cork and pitch when the fermentation was complete. However, this use of cork does not appear to have continued into the early medieval period, possibly because the main potential supply of European cork was in southern Iberia, which had been conquered by the Moors in the 8th century. Medieval illuminations illustrate barrels generally sealed by wooden stoppers, with cloth frequently placed between the barrel and the stopper to provide a more airtight seal. Pitch and wax were also sometimes used to provide additional protection. In the long period during which wine was mainly stored in and served from the barrel, the most common stopper was some form of bung.

I have other sources that confirm her text.

[Adam Balic]

Sorry, that is essentially what I said earlier. I don't understand the point that you are making?

Cork oaks have been around for a long time and there is evidence that it has been used sporadically though in the last few thousand years as a closure, but widespread use of it as a closure in wine bottles is largely an 18th century phenomena.

[Don Giovanni]

Sorry, that is essentially what I said earlier. I don't understand the point that you are making?

Cork oaks have been around for a long time and there is evidence that it has been used sporadically though in the last few thousand years as a closure, but widespread use of it as a closure in wine bottles is largely an 18th century phenomena.

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I was posting to your post # 6 actually affirming your first sentence with a source, a very good one at that.

[Adam Balic]

So I'm not sure where this leaves us.

In your original post you gave an example of a late medieval/early modern bottle with a punt and from the suggested that punts developed as a technology to deal with the internal pressure in sparkling wine?

I pointed out that corks were not in common useage in this period and without a decent seal, there would be no point in developing a stronger bottle for this single purpose.

However, there is no evidence that historical sparkling wines created pressures that required a punt and in any case historical accounts of sparkling wine seem to first occur in the 17th century, well after the appearance of the punt.

[Adam Balic]

This image detail may be of interest. It's from Jean François de Troy's 1735 painting Le Déjeuner d'Huîtres (Luncheon with Oysters) which is thought to represent the earliest image of champagne in a painting. Interesting the bottles are of the type refered to as "generic liquor bottles", in otherwords they were not specifc to champagne at this time, but were used as they are robust type of bottle. This type of hand molded bottle is thought to derive from the onion type bottle, which in tern is thought to be derived from globula type apothecary bottles. If you look at the 15-17th century examples in this link, you can see their punts very clearly. Obviously they could be wrong and these may actually be tiny wee bottles of champagne. Edited April 11, 2007 by Adam Balic (log)

[JohnL]

This topic is doomed to go on forever with no resolution.

If well qualified experts in wine history and glass blowing et al have not reached a definitive conclusion then I doubt that theorizing by amateurs here will result in any real answers.

DonG

Your original post makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can explain.

First you note this rumination all started when you encountered a "five ounce glass" and a "beaker" each with a punt, in a museum. What a glass or a beaker has to do with storing Champagne or sparkling wine is not clear. In fact this would seem to disprove your theory. You provide a link to some wikipedia argy bargy that doesn't even mention a punt. In fact this piece indicates that glass bottles for Champagne storage were made stronger by a method of adding metals to the glass recipe discovered by the British. this also serves to disprove your theory.

(I certainly see no way it supports what you are trying to state).

I must be missing something in your thesis.

Edited April 11, 2007 by JohnL (log)

[Don Giovanni]

This topic is doomed to go on forever with no resolution.

If well qualified experts in wine history and glass blowing et al have not reached a definitive conclusion then I doubt that theorizing by amateurs here will result in any real answers.

DonG

Your original post makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can explain.

First you note this rumination all started when you encountered a "five ounce glass" and a "beaker" each with a punt, in a museum. What a glass or a beaker has to do with storing Champagne or sparkling wine is not clear. In fact this would seem to disprove your theory. You provide a link to some wikipedia argy bargy that doesn't even mention a punt. In fact this piece indicates that glass bottles for Champagne storage were made stronger by a method of adding metals to the glass recipe discovered by the British. this also serves to disprove your theory.

(I certainly see no way it supports what you are trying to state).

I must be missing something in your thesis.

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Evolution is also irrelevant. The fact that I discovered the punt in glass at a particular date is relevant as to glass production and in my opinion was the very result of a technology break through brought upon by the sparkling wine...the fact that no one can disclaim what I have provided is even stronger evidence that I may be right.... this is something you will have to live with...

I have offered a theory with facts and information.....you have offered only to mock the postings with no facts..... This conversation was a good one and it's now over, as you have the ability to talk in circles without fact and this is now moot for me....so let's agree to disagree and move on...so we don't waist up any more bandwidth talking in circles.....good day..

[JohnL]

DonG:

First, i am not mocking your theory. In fact I have spent quite a bit of time pondering it and reading your links.

My conclusion is your theory makes no sense and your so called support actually undermines it.

Specifically, you note punts appearing as early as the 1400's.

Champagne appears in the sixteenth century. The punt was clearly a result of something other than a "breakthrough" to strengthen bottles that were to hold sparkling wine or Champagne.

In fact, your link wherein the "breakthrough" made by the British in the 1700's that allows for the use of metals (lead oxide) etc in glass making to make stronger bottles appears to have been the "answer" to the dilemma faced by the Champagne makers.

NOT THE PUNT.

In Thomas Pellechia's "Wine The 8,000 Year Old Story of the Wine Trade" the author notes that up to 75 per cent of the "new champagne" was often lost to bottle breakage. He goes on to note the British discovered the means of strengthening glass bottles (lead oxide) and further states "after the Monks successfully put that new technology to use at Hautvillers, their wines became more reliable and increasingly popular."

If the punt was a breakthrough for allowing sparkling wine to be bottled reliably then it is pretty clear the Monks making Champagne didn't realize it!

It is eminently clear, that there is no definitive answer to why the punt exists or even when it first appears. Both wine historians and glass making experts are uncertain.

Why as you note would it be used in a glass beaker from the 1400's (by the way sparkling wine is thought to have first appeared in the fifteen hundreds in Limoux)

what was its purpose in a beaker?

Perhaps to aid in pouring? For stability? It can't possibly be to strengthen the glass!

Whatever.

So, I am not mocking your theory. I am just taking it seriously. Doing a bit of reading and questioning it.

I am reasonably confident that if it is, as you posit, a "breakthrough" to make bottles strong enough to hold sparkling wine, then experts from the Oxford editors or Thom Pellechia (whose book notes over one hundred citations in its bibliography) to Hugh Johnson and on and on, would have made this "discovery" as well.

[Don Giovanni]

John,

For the last time I think sparkling wine has been around for many years earlier than what is or has been reported..maybe even thousands of years....... I know Thomas personally and was given a pre production copy of his book that you reference...Thomas is a great person and very well educated....he did get the cork part wrong...this is a fact....hey he is human and still my friend.... I have looked into every angel of this punt theory and can find no authorities that can make any compelling argument against my theory. Thus my theory is sound , so far as much as nobody can prove it wrong... the fact that glass making had evolved is good for the strength of glass....but this is an advancement ....today you need no punt because at the most you have is 6 atmospheres of pressure in the best sparkling wine and the glass can withstand this without a punt, yet we still use it for tradition...as for the neck no need for the edge to be embossed because we don't have to strap to tie the closure down ...yet this remains because of aesthetics and tradition.

End of story....

[JohnL]

So your theory appears to be based on the statement: "I think sparkling wine has been around for many years earlier than what has been reported...maybe even thousands of years."

Okay--can't argue with the fact that you seem to be in possession of some information that no other person writing about wine has come upon.

Well, I think your theory is suspect. You are certainly entitled to it though.

Anyway

I surrender!

Cheers!

[Don Giovanni]

So your theory appears to be based on the statement: "I think sparkling wine has been around for many years earlier than what has been reported...maybe even thousands of years."

Okay--can't argue with the fact that you seem to be in possession of some information that no other person writing about wine has come upon.

Well, I think your theory is suspect. You are certainly entitled to it though.

Anyway

I surrender!

Cheers!

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No need to surrender... we can just move on...we are all just thinking and this is a good thing.

John I enjoyed our postings...still friends...

Cheers !

[andiesenji]

There are references in Wikipedia about the "punt" supposedly strengthing wine bottles.

However, you have to understand that the information posted to Wikipedia is written and edited by people who do not always have the true or factual information. Anyone, can start a page about a subject and edit it, add to it.

The link you posted which notes it is "automatically" translated, has not translated well. Not all the information is presented in a way that is easily understood.

A "punt" is the part of the blown glass vessel that was attached to the "punty" the steel pipe that was used to blow the glass and maneuver the glass so it can be shaped.

During the part of the process where a hot "bubble" of glass is transferred from one punty to another, there are actually two (2) punts on a vessel. Until the first one is cut away, thus opening the vessel.

A blob of glass is gathered onto the end of a punty.

It is spun to center it and hanging straight down, a puff of air causes the blob to expand with a hollow in the middle.

At this point the punty is attached at the end of the vessel that will eventually be the opening. The blob is

inserted into the "glory hole" a second furnace that keeps the glass pliable so it can be worked and shaped and if it is going to be a bottle or a vase, the hot bubble is spun while being shaped with various tools, open molds, so to speak.

When it has been shaped as desired, another worker pulls a blob of molten glass onto the end of another punty which is then stuck to the bottom of the vessel, often pushed in a bit to make it concave, which will allow it to sit level, but that comes later.

Now that the vessel is attached to the new punty, the first punty is cut away with big shears, and the now open vessel is further shaped, often being put back into the glory hole numerous times during the process, to soften it so it can be worked. Often this is repeated several times so if this is going to be a vase, the top can be stretched and flared, pleated, rippled, turned down on itself, whatever....

When the vessel has hardened enough to hold its shape, it is grasped by a helper with metal tongs and the

second punty is broken off the bottom of the vessel. This is the punt.

See this:changing ends.

Often this protrudes past the base rim, so the vessel will not sit square and has to be ground away, and often polished. Sometimes it is ground down so that the bottom is entirely concave, or it may just be ground until it is below the level of the rim, leaving a bump in the bottom.

Although the Egyptians and others in the middle east were making faience or fused glass 3500 years ago, the first glass blowing was done in the first century B.C.

The "Portland" vase, made in Rome, has a punt mark on the bottom.

Glass for windows, an extremely expensive item in the middle ages, was blown on a punty, cut and flattened and some very early pieces have been found in very early glassworkers shops, with the punt still attached. Interestingly, some of the colors developed by these early European glassworkers were secrets that are still a mystery today. The stained glass in cathedral windows is difficult to replace because glass makers are still trying to duplicate particular colors.

The punt predated sparkling wine by centuries and all kinds of vessels have punts on the bottom.

History of glassblowing by glassblowers.

That being said, there are some TYPES of glass that are stronger and more suited for bottling under pressure. Different minerals added to the sand add more than just color. Some glass is extremely brittle, add certain elements and the glass becomes extremely tough.

Glass bottles made in molds have a concave bottom because the bottles are pulled from the molds before the glass has completely cooled. If the bottom is completely flat, the glass can slump and the bottle will not sit flat.

I have a bottle of olive oil, from Italy, that has as deep a hollow in the bottom as any wine bottle.

Edited April 11, 2007 by andiesenji (log)