Pan

We get into a danger zone for eG Forums when we start to have political arguments about the corruption in the political system. Suffice it to say that many people are very angry about just the kind of corruption and legalized bribery you are passing off as normal and acceptable. ← One thing I hate and find immoral is being misquoted when the statement is right there in public. ← And linked, for anyone who wants to see the whole context. All they have to do is press the little arrow at the end of the quoted excerpt, which has an ellipsis in it, showing that I have quoted only part of your post. Methinks thou dost protest too much. However, since I evidently misunderstood what you meant and you take offense at that, I am happy to offer my apology. Obvious to you, but obviously not obvious to me. I posted based on my interpretation of the meaning of your post. I appreciate the clarification. Now, finally, I would merely say that while a comparison of the corrupting effect of bribing politicians vs. bribing maitres d' demonstrates that it is much more damaging to bribe politicians, it does not demonstrate that it is thereby entirely moral and of no ethical concern when people bribe maitres d', especially for things like cutting the line. I think it was in kindergarten that most of us learned that it is unfair to cut the line, which is why at least some of us have a visceral sense that it is sleazy at best to pay to jump the line. I will refrain to comment on your shock that it could be possible for an individual who happens to hold the volunteer position of manager of the eGullet Society to make a mistake, except to say that you're right: We do make mistakes, of course.

We get into a danger zone for eG Forums when we start to have political arguments about the corruption in the political system. Suffice it to say that many people are very angry about just the kind of corruption and legalized bribery you are passing off as normal and acceptable. Sorry for posting so many times in a row; I haven't been able to spend much time online lately. This will be my last post in this thread for now. Good holiday wishes to all who are celebrating or having time off from work.

Believe me when I tell you that there are some that don't.

Yep. We are in agreement. By the way, universities considering donations as one factor in admissions is understandable, but for them to let that cause them to take in unqualified applicants or, worse yet, pressure faculty to consider those donations when grading the students, would be extremely corrupt and reprehensible.

The operative phrase there is "should be." I get lousy if any service from my super if I don't give him a Christmas "bonus" at an amount that's rather painful to me, but I have at least some chance of getting some service or at least a friendly attitude from him if I do. Therefore, I consider it a bribe and resent it. By contrast, I bring in a half pound assortment of chocolate cookies from my local kosher bakery for my secretary at one of my jobs at the end of the Fall (and usually Spring) semester every year, not because there is any expectation that faculty shall give her gifts (as was the case at another job where there was a lousy, bitchy secretary who was rude to my students, but all faculty including adjuncts were told in no uncertain terms that $5 was expected of them for her Christmas "bonus"), and not because I will get a lousy attitude or a lack of service if I don't (I won't), but simply because she is a good secretary and makes my life easier, so I freely choose to get her something I know she appreciates in order to show my appreciation for her. That's the difference between a gift and a bribe.

You want a sandwich twice as big at Katz's? Do you have an army to feed? I always tip the counterman at Katz's. I never give him money beforehand. I get excellent service and delicious sandwiches. Even in the case of countermen who don't recognize me personally.

Yep, same here. They can enjoy someone else's money.

Pam, I'm glad I could catch up a little with your blog tonight. I still think you're nuts to do a blog during the busiest time of your year but it's great that you got a chance to demonstrate so many of the things you've been making and selling like kosher l'pesach hotcakes. Chag sameach!

I don't know if there was a second one. If you'd like to have one, PM a proposal for a member-organized event to any forum host for this forum (we'll walk you through the process), or just contact people by PM to organize one informally.

Pan, you believe bribery isn't necessary in this country? Spend a month in Washington and then get back to me. ← Rich, you just don't understand. When there are military roadblocks in New Jersey that exist for the sole purpose of extorting monthly bribes from taxi drivers whose licenses would be confiscated otherwise, come back and talk to me. Oh, are their salaries and working conditions so bad? Perhaps they'd prefer to go in the back and wash the dishes? Again, you just don't understand. There are countries where everything, everything requires a bribe or nepotism. To a quite significant extent, you're right that it's true in the US, as well, but for you to argue that it's moral, well, I can only say that some people will rationalize anything. [Edited to make the post less political]

Chickens are also omnivorous.

In the real world bribery is not only moral but necessary - and it's not always money that changes hands. A favor here, an offer there...it's what makes the world go around. ← I can only say that I'm glad many of you have never actually been to countries where bribery is necessary for everything. I'm tempted to say more, but I'll hold back. Giving a large tip to a bartender is a different issue, because tipping for drinks is part of the deal. But a maitre d' who accepts bribes should be fired.

Most Americans don't like chestnut paste in desserts? How do you figure? I suppose most haven't had a chance to try chestnut paste in desserts, but once they do, how could they dislike it? I really don't understand that. As for red beans in desserts, I like them, but when you bring up chestnut puree, red bean paste doesn't stand a chance. Seriously, though, I figure that almost any kind of bean can be good in a dessert if the dessert is well made. Yes, I could even imagine a good string bean dessert. Why not, when there's a wonderful traditional Nicois dessert, tourte aux blettes, which features savoy cabbage.

This piques my curiosity. Which Asian ingredients?

Can anyone give any example of a person who chose not to become a cook or to create a new dish because of fear of being copied? I find that argument very dubious. If you really want to make the world of cuisine more attractive, improve the pay and working conditions. On another topic, further to joesan's comments about traditional Italian cuisine, note that they have started to protect traditional dishes, such as "la vera pizza napoletana." We should question why we are stuck in the Modernist obsession with originality. Why does originality deserve legal protection and classic cuisine merit condescension? I take comments about the combination of sampled music advisedly, because it shows how we are thinking about these things. I do not think that music has "progressed" to become superior to Bach through these sampling techniques. Is it possible that there are sublime culinary classics from the early 18th century that surpass all modern cuisine? Or does this line of discussion show, once again, how inapt comparisons between cuisine and the fine arts are?

I'll break with the current tone of this thread. No, I have not and never would do this, and the people doing this screw it up for everyone else. Bribery is immoral and corrupts society. OK, carry on.

When I was living in Malaysia, I had my own rooster, yet I was able to eat chickens that were not my rooster. Actually, I did end up eating my rooster and was not happy when I found out that the chicken I had eaten was my rooster. Anyway, do you see how it could be possible to distinguish between an animal you know personally and one that you don't? (And please, let's not analogize this to people we don't know!)

Independent creation is kind of hard to prove if you're a former stagiaire or customer of the establishment you're copying, as is the case here. Once access is demonstrated, it's pretty hard to mount an independent creation defense.[...] ← Is there any field in which variations on a theme are considered copyright violation? Certainly not music, and I think we agree that this shouldn't apply to cuisine, either. So the degree of variation would be more relevant than degree of access.

In the early 1990s, I had friends in Castelnuovo Berardenga, in the Chianti country of Tuscany, who taught me that a really good sauce is better off not obscured by the addition of cheese. (As a result, I always try the pasta before deciding whether or not to add cheese.) So I think that a really good kosher ragu' could be excellent.

[tangent]Actually, Harlem is pretty safe and fairly rapidly gentrifying nowadays.[/returning you to your scheduled programming]

There's also this "Passover 2005 wines" thread. I thought I remembered yet another thread, but I can't find it.

Yeah, that really is beautiful! It's odd: I think kimchi somehow is one of the things I shouldn't like, but I've liked it since the first time I had some in Seoul at the age of 10. I would definitely try that bitter melon kimchi, as I, too, like bitter melon.

For whatever it's worth, I consider regular potatoes a waste in tzimmes. When I've cooked tzimmes with my mother, we used no potatoes and no carrots, but plenty of prunes and sweet potatoes. We also used a good amount of onions. We didn't use any stock that I can recall. It always came out good, but I'm not sure we actually followed any recipe.

Don't your Muslim friends eat seafood? Most Muslims consider seafood halal.

Yeah, but I think it's cute rather than regrettable. hathor, thanks for the picture of an edible "buon compleano" in sushi!