Pan

Dowel has fresh curry leaves. They keep them in the refrigerator. I don't know where you can get fresh kaffir lime leaves. Is dried good enough for you? They have the same taste, and when I was in Malaysia, I didn't find the lime leaves they were using to be edible, either (except when in small strips). They just give a wonderful taste to pad prik, chicken soup, and so forth. I get lime leaves at the Thai-Indonesian store on Bayard St., but try the Thai store on Mosco St., too. I'll bet you if they don't have something fresh, they'll either get it for you or tell you where to get it. As for the limes, I've never seen them for sale in New York and wonder if they'd travel that well, but if you find them, let me know. The limes I most wish I could find here are limau nipis, the jewel of Malaysian limes. But there are some things that really have to be picked off the tree or plucked from the ground. As an example, I'm glad we can get "fresh" lemongrass here, but it isn't really fresh. Fresh lemongrass in Malaysia is tender and can be eaten up completely. Lemongrass here is tough and can be chewed but not eaten. And welcome to eGullet!

By the way, I also had one very bad meal in Perugia, though that was probably the only bad meal I ever had in Umbria. I found Tuscan cuisine pretty consistently good, what with all the wonderful fresh ingredients that were used at every eatery of any description.

You're most welcome, Robert, and you're one of the people whose posts are most interesting on a high level of thinking about the meaning of food and cuisine. I think you might want to define what you mean by "formal characteristics" more. (Is this in any way separate from content?) It seems to me that if anything could make food avant garde, it would be combinations that are so unexpected and unconventional by today's standards (which are what?) that the combinations or/and result seem bizarre. Bizarre could work or not, but it seems to me that anyone who makes regular use of bizarre combinations for reasons other than mere ignorance and incompetence could be considered "avant garde." Pho mentions Grant Achatz. I haven't been to Chicago since 1997 and wouldn't have been able to afford to go to Trio at the time, even if it had already opened (which I believe it hadn't). But I've read enough of Chef Achatz' remarks and the descriptions of others who've been to his restaurant to know that he combines the sweet and savory in ways that most diners do not expect and had not previously experienced prior to a visit to Trio. Of course, combining sweet and savory is a time-honored procedure all over the place. Nevertheless, it does seem like Achatz sticks his neck out, and he's the first to tell us that he has detractors as well as loyal fans. But one thing that the avant garde did in the arts that I don't think we'll ever see in high-end restaurants is a desire to shock the bourgeoisie.

It's not that hard to find a bad meal in Rome, in my experience.

One remark - and I hope no-one incorrectly sees this as trivializing your very thoughtful post: The avant garde in the arts produced a very great amount of crap. So I think that any definition of "avant garde" that is defined by high quality rather than an attitude being expressed about convention and individualism goes against previous history. The thing that made avant garde art (painting, sculpture, music, literature) avant garde is that it in some fundamental way or other broke with what had been considered essentially de rigueur conventions or rules and expressed the individual artist's personality and individuality in a much more intense way than had been true of previous periods in art history. A few of the avant gardistes, while breaking with the customs of the past, established new and illuminating forms of order. And it is these few brilliant, inspired artists (among the more notable of whom I would include composers like Satie, Debussy, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Webern, Varese, Bartok; visual artists like the greatest of the Impressionists, Rodin, Cezanne, Picasso, Braque, Brancusi; and a poet like William Carlos Williams [i know less about literature]) who made the avant garde something worthwhile. I don't follow cutting-end trends in expensive dining like a number of other eGulleteers do, except vicariously by reading about them, so I couldn't say who if anyone qualifies as an avant gardiste in food today. (I'd say that the avant garde in music, visual arts, and literature petered out some time ago as there ceased to be any generally-accepted rules in any of those arts, the "avant garde" became the wealthy establishment in the visual arts, and people recycled old concepts like the 12-tone system while ignoring the original Expressionst uses to which it was put or did things purely for publicity, but I digress.) But I would caution against denying the possibility that "concoctions" can be avant garde. If you don't think "concoctions" can be considered avant garde, I'd submit that the term "avant garde" is not useful for describing food, and should be discarded.

I agree with you, Fat Guy. It's most likely that these issues will be addressed online.

Consider that I've spent a lot of time in Siena, where I found it very hard to find a bad meal. Also consider that I was not seeking out expensive restaurants and couldn't pay for them. That said, I liked pici with black truffles or mushrooms very much when I was in Spoleto.

Not really, Bux. A shiksa is a female shegetz, and a goya is a female goy.

Jinmyo, you think $80/person is mid-range? Only something around $150 is high range? Maybe for millionaires everything less than $1,000/person is cheap, but what kind of world are most of us living in? Even in New York, you're wrong. No way is $80 "mid-range." I think that the New York Times and most individual New Yorkers recognize that $40/person is not really cheap, considering the prices in Chinatown, for example. And if it's not cheap, but assuming we don't consider it expensive compared to restaurants in the $75-100/person range, it's mid-range. Don't get me started, because if you ask me, $30 isn't cheap either, and over $50/person is expensive - but that's based on what I can reasonably afford, rather than the actual structure of restaurant pricing in New York. More importantly, $80/person is significantly more than the amount I'd pay at any Italian restaurant in the East Village including I Coppi, which is too expensive for me to go to unless someone else pays. I can get a very satisfying meal at Col Legno for under $30/person, and Lavagna and Il Bagatto are better and cost anywhere between about $35-55. Now, what about those prices at the Olive Garden again?

I want to add my own thank you. I haven't read many articles about food or food writing that enter the realm of philosophy the way this one does.

Extended stay? No, I think you're right; neither town deserves an extended stay. I just think both places are worth visiting and S. Gimignano deserves more than one hour. I'm frankly unfamiliar with Montalcino and prefer the Duomo in Siena to the similar one in Orvieto, except that the latter has a rare example of well-restored (not horribly overcleaned) great frescos in Italy. I think the best Etruscan museum I've seen has been in Tarquinia. I probably prefer Tuscany to Umbria for both art and food, but it's close, and the scenery is wonderful in both regions, though somewhat less cultivated and (therefore) wilder in Umbria.

Yes, and so is Siena, but they are both much larger cities than either Cortona or San Gimignano. As a lover of art and beautiful views, I disagree with your assessments of Cortona, and to a much greater degree, San Gimignano. Cortona _is_ a very small town, but there is a great painting and some good ones in the very small Museo dell'Opera del Duomo (which I did feel was a little bit of a contrived device to justify charging visitors who otherwise might be seeing the works in their rightful places in the church). The museum of the archeological association is also of some interest. Most importantly, the approach to and view from the city is breathtaking, somewhat as is true of Orvieto (a larger and more spectacular town, to be sure). As for San Gimignano, it is a small town but has things to see that are amazing. First of all, there are the fresco cycles in the Colleggiata and a bunch of great paintings in the museum in the Palazzo Publico; secondly, there is the great fresco cycle by Benozzo Gozzoli of scenes of the life of IIRC Sant'Agostino. Then, there's the beauty of the city itself with all its Medieval buildings and towers, the Piazza della Cisterna, the panoramic view from La Rocca, etc. On my first visit to S. Gimignano, I was there for closer to 5 hours than 1. Later, I had the chance to go back at night, when the day-trippers are gone, it's more peaceful and quiet, and the atmosphere is totally different. There's a bit of an apples-and-oranges aspect to comparing Florence to San Gimignano. But when did Frances Mayes' book come out?

This is off-topic, but "Goy" simply means "Nation" in Hebrew and in the sense of "Ha-Goyim" ("The Nations") is effectively a synonym for "The Gentiles," and not necessarily derogatory (it can be, depending on tone and context, just as would be true of, for example, using the word "Jew"). Shiksa, on the other hand, unless used jokingly, is quite a nasty word. From www.m-w.com: I would suggest that everyone think carefully about whether it's appropriate to volunteer to call yourself an abomination or blemish.

You broke a tooth? Is it fixable?

Precisely! Louisa, don't be so self-effacing.

I've missed this thread so far. My favorite yakitori so far is magret of duck yakitori that I had at a terrific Japanese restaurant called Yasube in the 1iere Arrondisement of Paris.

I don't understand why anyone is saying not to use kaffir lime juice. Kaffir lime is "limau purut" in Malay, and its juice is used in both Malaysia and Thailand. It's an excellent, fragrant lime with excellent juice. My favorite lime is the much more fragrant, sweeter limau nipis, but unfortunately, that is to my knowledge nowhere to be found in the U.S. But putting down limau purut, to me, is insane.

sure. that's obviously easier than asking for separate checks, which not only gives the server more headaches, but the kitchen as well i would imagine. anyone who has run a credit card knows that you just type in the number and swipe. it ain't rocket science, and it doesn't take long to do it twice. furthermore, these things have to be put through twice a lot of times as it is, as the first time doesn't work. I'm starting to reconsider my position! It sounds like the only issue may be that the patrons indicate clearly - and preferably, in writing, if there are more than two or three of them - what to charge whom.

That, I agree with. But it is reasonable to ask a waiter to divide up a single bill among multiple credit cards in a particular way. Bruce I don't think it is. If the diners didn't request separate checks before ordering, I think they should provide a single form of payment. Clearly, others disagree, but that's what I think.

Just in case anyone actually cares what my opinion is , I agree with TPO that it's completely reasonable to request separate checks before ordering, and I do that sometimes. What I think isn't reasonable is to request separate checks only when getting ready to pay.

Just so you know, if someone else wrote the same things, I'd disagree with that person, too. Have a good one.

Tommy, I have to say that asking for a check to be split 8 ways for 8 credit cards really does seem like a pain in the ass to the restaurant. I wouldn't say that they shouldn't do it when asked to, though. It seems to me that that's part of the built-in hassle of owning or/and running a restaurant. But it struck me that when you say it's easier to pay for a bill with a credit card - implying, I figure, in the context of my question, that it's also easier to pay with 8 credit cards instead of one credit card with the other diners using cash to reimburse the payer - my immediate thought was that it's easier for you and a big hassle for the restaurant. Perhaps I'm wrong, though, and it really isn't much of a hassle at all. I noticed that in Europe, credit cards are used even more than in the U.S., and they bring out those card reading machines. Are the checks split x-number of ways frequently in France or Italy (for example), or is there normally a single payer?

Baby food for a baby? Yes, it is okay to do that. What possible reason could there be to oppose that? I would take it one step further. Why didn’t the parents hire a sitter? In my opinion children in general do not belong in restaurants. If they can have smoke free and Cell phone free restaurants… Then no babies should ever be permitted in restaurants? What's next? Baby-free buses, baby-free flights (I might like those, in theory, but I'd never condone such a practice)? The key in this situation ought to be behavior, not age. If the baby carries on and the parents can't or won't calm the baby by whatever means is appropriate, out they go. Otherwise, why are you laying in on this issue? You were a baby once, too - weren't we all. Babies are people, too.

No, but I used to go to La Tacita De Oro, another Cuban-Chinese place, on Broadway between 99th and 100th Sts. However, though it's quite acceptable, I like the local Dominican restaurant - El Malecon - better.

Why doesn't one person pay the whole thing on his/her card and have everyone reimburse him/her with cash? That's what groups including me do when we don't simply pay the whole thing in cash. Are you sharing $200/person meals in the above situations?