Steve Plotnicki

Well the point we are trying to make is that the purpose of going is to sample the chef's cuisine. And you can't do that when you order a salad (as a general rule.)

You will always end up being stuck between a class based system and an egalitarian one. Diners break down into those two categories no matter how hard you want to believe otherwise. You are better off going with one or the other. Michelin and Gaullt Millau are great examples of the class model. Zagat is a great example of the egalitarian, populist model. And it isn't that you can't find inspectors who do not understand both of these aspects of dining, Your problem comes in how the codification system works. When are you recommending a restaurant based on class and when are you recommending just based on the quality of cuisine. In the upper middle you recommend both by default. But how do you succinctly describe that Congee Village revolves around a different principal?

I do not believe that anyone's stomach is not big enough to order and to eat three courses. Leave some of it over if you can't eat it all. None of the reasons you gave go to the point of why someone would choose to order three courses, and not to have three unique and different tastes that they can't get elsewhere. It defeats the purpose of going in the first place.

Jin - Charred steak tartar is just filet mignon that they throw on a hot grill to char the outside. Then they cut it by hand into a dice. They mix it with capers, onions and spices, and I'm not sure if it is butter or oil? Anyway, after it is thoroughly mixed together they reform it into the shape of a filet mignon and serve it cold. I always found it one of the best dishes in town and it has a great charred taste to it. It makes for a superior lunch after having a hot appetizer like soup etc.

Hooray for Plotnickiism.

He is right. The standard for cooking food at the Oyster Bar is really not that high. It is a standard that was acceptable in the old days at New York/New England style fish restaurants. These days they would be better served getting a serious fish chef who updated the cuisine. For example, there is no reason that the Oyster Bar can't serve a world class sole meuniere. Where I disagree with Grimes is that the actual oyster bar, including derivitive dishes like pan roasts and stews, are so good that it merits a star. Especially in light of two stars for Babbo.

Well that is a variation on the same theme. The point is why go to Daniel for dinner and eat a salad? Theoretically, you are going to have them do their culinary razzle dazzle for you and a salad is a poor backdrop for that. Some salads are, like when heirloom tomatoes are in season. But in general, salads that are based around greens are not.

Salad is pedestrian. It's for tourists. Not all salads mind you, but the ones usually on the menus at top restaurants. They are not there to make a gastronomic statement. They are there so picky eaters have something they can order without suffering a panic attack.

Since Mr.s P and I go out for a steak dinner on the average of about once every week and a half, we end up with lots of leftover steak. My favorite way of eating the leftovers is cold from the fridge, sliced about 1/4 inch thick, along with sliced tomatoes (best quality given what season you are in)drizzled with the house favorite olive oil (which happens to be the one I import ) and sprinkled with kosher salt. I usually have some type of cheese I eat along with it like brie or Peyrac or sometimes very fresh goat cheese. It makes for a superior meal. If the meat is well marbled, the olive oil adds a dimension to the marbling that gives it a great texture.

How about Suvir?

Mogsob - Do you have your chronology correct? Was 71 Clinton really open before all of those other places?

Important meals to whom?

You have all now just run up on the hard part of the problem. How do you codify different classes of restaurants? Because for example, having a pastrami sandwich at Katz's is one of the 50 most important meals you need to eat in NYC. In fact it might be in the top 25, or even the top 10. But it is not one of the best meals you can have if you you use any type of formal definition of the word meal. It is a casual meal, and in a category of its own, separate and apart from fine dining. But the reason guide books include it is because the food is so good that it attracts all classes of diners. So the guide books report on this phenomenon. But a guide book that covers fine dining, which is for an exclusive class, needs to take a sharp left turn in order to start covering ethnic restaurants that are not patronized by the same people who patronize places like Gramercy Tavern.

You mean the people who own Gurney's Inn in Montauk, at least they used to. Fuggedabout it. Of course they could have new management and things could have changed. But mu gut tells me no.

As an aside to all of this, a great Alsatian wine that is around and which doesn't cost much money is the 2000 Domaine Ostertag Riesling Fronholtz. We had a bottle at Arpege in October at the recommendation of the sommelier, and then one of the people at that dinner went out and bought a case and we had a bottle at Union Pacific three weeks ago. Stunning stuff. Floral like a condrieu. One of the best Alsatian wines I have had in years that isn't by Trimbach or made before 1990.

Wilf - I think there are three of them. Don Alfonso near Sorrento used to have one but they were downgraded. And there is a new one this year near Venice. The only one I've been to, Al Sorriso in the Piemonte, in no way, shape or form deserves three stars in my opinion. And I hear that dal Pescatorre is unremarkable.

Pan - If you have a chance and you are in that neighborhood for some reason, try the taco cart on 97th street just west of Second Avenue. I think she has better food then the taco truck on 96th street does. Especially her gorditas and sopes which she will make for you on the spot if she is out of them. But her taco enchilada, and pollo, are much better then 96th & Broadway IMHO.

Let me say this in a much more controversial way. I don't think an Italian restaurant can be four stars no matter what they do. At least in my experience with them. And I say that not having been to the best examples of Italian haute cuisine like Gambero Rosso or Vissani. The closest I've seen in NYC is San Domenico in the old days. That Raviolo rocked. It still does. But cuisine has moved quite far since then and the cuisine at San Dominico has stood still. But in general your assessment of why the restaurants on that list fall short is correct. But you can really reduce it down to one issue. They don't aspire to four stars. Because all of them, aside from Le Cirque, would have to make changes in everything from the scope of the cuisine (90% of it) to their suroundings.

I went to the first one they had two years ago. It was fun, but sort of underwhelming so I haven't gone back. It's just a pile of meat on a platter, not particularly well cooked in my opinion, as those pictures show with the beef they are slicing being overdone. Ultimately, that things are cooked and served banquet style undermines the quality of the food, although it adds to the fun experience. But if they limited the menu choices to beefsteak, and one fish and one poultry item for those non-meat eaters, and had their normal reservation policy and you could just order it throught the dinner seating say for a week, that would probably make for a better meal.

Considering how many tasting menus I order, where I have no idea what the ingredients will be or how they will prepare them, it's not so terrible. Except I am wondering why they are only telling you the ingredients. It's sort of sadistic to tell someone they are getting sweetbreads, mushrooms and carrots and not telling them whether it is a little fricasse or a puree. Who would order the pure, blech.

Actually I could never get next to Pichon Lalande, even the '82. I have friends who love the wine and buy it in every vintage but I never acquire a taste for it. Too feminine for my palate when it comes to Bordeaux.

Mogsob - Did I say "the" perfect expression or did I say "a perfect expression." I haven't taken the time to reread what I wrote. Anyway whatever I wrote I meant a perfect expression. And here is evidence to support that. 1990 Jaboulet Hermitage La Chapelle, 1990 Chave Hermitage Cuvee Cathelin, and 1991 Chapoutier Hermitage Le Pavillon, are wines that are made in entirely different styles. Yet Parker's criteria is broad based enough so that all of them get 100 point scores. Now I'm not trying to defend Parker, and those of you who read eRobertparker.com know I am not shy to mix it up with him and Pierre when I think they take the wrong approach, but you have to give the guy credit for what he does extremely well. And he happens to be the best person in the business in the 95-100 point category for wines in Bordeaux, the Rhone, Barolo, Super-Tuscan, California and Australia. And while the guy is not as effective in other regions (like Burgundy and the Loire,) it doesn't detract from anything else.

Well the tourists want to know what restaurants are hot, and where the hidden away gems are. Zagat happens to do a fairly good job in both categories. You can find Granercy Tavern and Sahara in Brooklyn. To me the entire issue breaks down into two categories. Dinners and casual dinners/lunches. We know what the dinner places are. And we know what the casual dinner places/lunch places are. Most people's dining needs fall into these two categories (at least mine do.) But if you are not interested in fancy dinners, I think you need a different type of guide book with extensive casual eating recommendations. I mean you can spend an entire week in NYC eating Chinese food or Thai food. You can even make a week out of Vietnamese or Indian/Pakistani. But if you are that type of diner you need something detailed about Asian cuisine that doesn't pay any attention to the Union Square Cafe. But once you include USC and Gramercy etc., few people are having dinner at those places on Monday night and at Bukhara on Coney Island Avenue the next night. I know it happens, but that's for the hardcore foodies and in reality those people only want/need to know the very top places.

The world would be a better place to eat in if you were actually a reflection of the market. But for example, in the 2003 Zagat Guide, there is not a single ethnic restaurant in the Top 50 most popular places. You would figure one place would make the list. Katz's, NY Noodletown, John's Pizza, something. but they don't. And plenty of stupid places make it like Ruby Foo's or Angelo & Maxie's.

I find that few cities have more then 2-3 places worth eating in to begin with. If they do, it's usually in the upper middle and above category. All other categories are usually expressed in one or two places that tower above the rest. In the "foreign food" category, aside from NYC, L.A.. possibly S.F. because the Chinatown is so large, what city has multiple choices in non-upper middle level places? I go to Miami each year for a week and the choices outside of the big boys is piss poor. Yes there is Rascal House, yes there is Versailles and yes there is that chain of Nicaraguan steak houses. But there isn't really much more when it comes right down to it. And that city is an ethnic hub. What city aside from the big boys, doesn't fit this profile? And that isn't to say that there isn't good Vietnamese or Indian in Seattle. But do I really need to know about 15 places? I'm not dismissing this market. It is handled quite well by the Time Out Guide to Dining. The problem is they don't do any ratings or rankings or recommendations. If they did it would be an improvement. But if we are talking about a guidebook, the amount of diversity you need to offer is much less.