Steve Plotnicki

Most diners never heard of Nan, let alone Coach Farm's goat cheese.

Wilfrid - I disagree with this. Many of the best ones still do. That is because the standard for what is properly cooked in Indian and Chinese cuisine is different then what you will find in other restaurants. Look at the French standard for cooking fish. It is old fashioned in many ways because in certain instances they insist on cooking their fish too long. In fact the French still cook their tuna through. No matter how many people tell them not to do it they don't understand it. Tony - I enjoy them as well. But enjoying them and being honest about their faults seem to be two different things for people on the board. Well I have been clear that I am talking about the Indian cuisine that is available to me. To tell me that there is great cuisine at Salloos in Lahore, doesn't get us very far. In fact most people say great Indian cuisine is only avaliable in private homes. That doesn't get us very far either. Great Japanese cuisine, great French cuisine, is available in restaurants outside of those countries. Why isn't great Indian cuisine available?

Wilfrid - There are many cuisines which have dishes that are slowly braised and the meats are not overcooked. I hate to use the French as an example but the meat in a pot au feu is tender. But you know what, the meat in a Jewish Beef in the Pot is often overcooked. That is because the standard used in Jewish cuisine for what cooked properly means is overdone. And it seems it is the same standard in most Indian restaurants. It is an old fashioned standard. Overdone is not the contemporary standard for what is considered to be properly cooked meat. And as far as I'm concerned, cuisines either keep current on their standards or they fall behind. But to say that Indian cuisine uses a different standard of doneness, so we should accept dried out and tough meat, that is bogus. Do you know how many Thai currys I've been served with overcooked meat? Or how many Chinese sautes I've gotten were the quality of the meat is poor or it isn't cooked particularly well? I see no reason for those cuisines to get a pass on how they perform, just because it is poiltically correct to like ethnic cuisine. Tony - Personally I think that the issue is the assertiveness in the spicing regimens. I think the days of the thick sauce that is flavored with curry are over when you talk about fine dining. I don't care how subtle the spicing is within itself. Just my prediction.

Tony - Actually I ate at La Broche in Miami last night. It is the sister restaurant of the same name in Madrid and the chef is ex El Bulli. The first four courses were soups and foams. By the time they served the pork knuckle, I was desperate for something that had some chew to it. But as for India Girl's advice, I'm afraid you guys keep missing what I am talking about. My comments are restricted to high cuisine. What the lower and middle classes eat in various countries is outside the scope of my comments. That is what we on eGullet term "ethnic cuisine." People will aways spice their local cuisines to be in accordance with past custom. What I am describing is how chefs in restaurants that prepare food for international diners, i.e., people who spend a lot of money to basically have the chefs apply fancy techniques when they prepare the food, will want in the future. It has no bearing on how everyday chefs prepare tacos, Hainanese soup chicken, pizza etc., and it has nothing to do with how much I like those cuisines because I like them all as well. But just because I like them doesn't mean I can't point out that while the tandoori lamb chops at New Tayyab are great, they aren't really the greatest quality meat and as such that limits what level meal it is. And also, if you were to improve the quality of the meat, they would have to tone down the marinade because what would the point be? These simple culinary concepts of how to improve cuisine, transcend nationality. And I find the arguing about it on this thread and others to be sort of bogus. For anyone to say that it is preferrable to eat lesser quality lamb in order to experience the great spicing techniques is a bogus statement. Yes it might be preferable for a casual meal, because it's fun, but if you were to take a serious and objective look at what people want to eat in serious restaurants, if you were being honest you would be honest about the faults in that cuisine. I find most people here are unwilling to do that. And I'm not going to get into why that is, but let's just say being dreadfully honest about ethnic cuisine is unpopular. I mean when is someone going to be honest and say that the lamb in the lamb curry you order is dreadfully overcoooked 99.99999% of the time, including at a place like Diwan? If someone dares to speak that truth, they are met with all types of personal slurs about how they are ignorant about spice parsing. It's all rubbish. Higher cuisines work on the principal of refinement. If you refuse to admit that, I believe you are making a personal and political statement about what you like and what you like to do, and are not taking an objective look at what serious diners, meaning what diners are willing to pay a lot of money for, happen to value. And that statement transcends nationality. Because if you look at any external evidence of what has historically been valued in high cuisine, it's all about levels of refinement. And as each cuisine becomes part of the globalized world of cuisines, including some being merged with other cuisines, it will revolve around refininement. To me that equates to less highly spiced food, meaning spice in proportion to the other ingredients. But of course if you want the conversation to revolve around ethnic cuisines, then they are static. And of course you can impose a different "balance" because those diners value something else. I hope I've said this correctly because I mean to insult no one. Adam - Well no then you would just be agreeing wth me because you would see it from my vantage point . Being an academic has no bearing on what tastes good does it?

Yes but the issue of having a more enjoyable meal at TBB then Diwan, supercedes those other questions which are really the subject of labeling. The fact of the matter is, to the average diner, TBB and Diwan are not distinguishable. And I would submit that these seven diners were far more experienced then the average diner and would still say for the purposes of the comparison they made, they are still undistinguishable. So far, the responses have been that they are incomparable, in light of the fact that six people specifically made a comparison and seem to have established a reasonable basis for doing so.

Sorry I had to log off for a change of clothes as I am on my way tio La Broche for dinner. It's like porno. I know it when I see it. I can't tell you who does have it, but I can tell you that you don't have it . Seriously, I am the complete populist on this. Everyone who does it has a say. The key is to find people who do it a lot because they usually offer them most reliable opinions. It is like finding a cardiac surgeon. You want the guy who has done the most bypass surgeries. The thing about dining is, and wine too, very few people who do not really understand it do it a lot. For example, if I had to evaluate my friends who have big wine collections, i.e., have made a rather large investment in their cellars, and this even goes for people who buy inexpensive wines, they are tremendously knowledgable bunch about the hobby they practice. Not everyone of course, there are a few dried out grapes in every bunch. But people who make the type of commitment of time and money that I am describing usually have a pretty good idea of what is good versus what is bad. For me, there is no better rationale on how to revaluate opinions then to do a time and motion study multiplied by some crazy mulitplicative for the amount of money people spend doing it. The same principal works for evaluating the importance of a restaurant. I mean what does it mean in the scheme of things that people travel to Brooklyn for a Peter Luger's steak, pizza from DiFara's. And what do you make of the pizza in New Haven when people drive all the way from NYC just to have dinner, and then drive back. For pizza!

No Jonathan. Next time you are going to fly more then 500 miles for a meal that isn't based on French culinary technique at it's core, why don't you let all of us know in advance. I'd like to come and watch you do it.

Don't worry Charles. Nobody will respond to your very logical, and reasonable position about the Oxtail Frankie. That's because it couldn't possiblky be good because it isn't authentic.

Yes but that is why people are willing to spend their cash. All of you are a bunch of big shots but everytime I ask anybody here what they spend their cash on, including where they spend large sums of money and why, nobody seems secure enough to answer that question? It's one thing when Wilfrid busts my chops because that is his intent. But when big shots like Jonathan Day do not answer I find it telling. They have the ability to foist all the criticism in the world but in the meanwhile, Jonathan is flying to Spain next week just to eat at El Bulli. I do not see him allocating the time, energy, or cash resources for Thai food, Indian food or a pastrami sandwich. But he seems to have lots of time to go eat food where the amount of technique is oozing out of each individual plate to such an extent that in reality, you go to experience the technique and not the food. And the entire cuisine rests on everything being balanced correctly including spicing. So everybody give me a fucking break. I am taking a bow now for all of you who are laughing out loud and hopefully I have raised the entertainment value well beyond Fat Guy's expectations.

Experts first, then the market in real time. It is rare when the market moves before the experts but it does happen.

Good answer Priscilla. Fat Guy - That's P-ism. I believe in the smart group of people deciding. The smart people, from what I have seen, have chosen Tabla over Diwan. Why is that wrong? How would you decide who is in your group of elitists? Mine is democratic. All you need is money to get in the group. Are you giving people a test for intellect?

I think it's pretty clear I was talking about TBB.

Yes but they are amzaingly reliable about remembering the good bands aren't they? In fact, they ae amazing reliable about rediscovering bands that were overlooked in their time.

1988's are acidic and not ready yet. 1990's are too big and are not ready either. 1989 Premier Crus should be a point. And it's nice to see Florida Jim around here.

But this is completely right. If Brittany Spears has any redeeming value, her CD's will sell 20 years from now. If she doesn't, they will sell zip. I can demonstrate countless rock acts, let alone pop acts, who do not sell anymore, even though they were immensely popular in their time. Jefferson Airplane, Ten Years After, etc. And with pop acts the disparity is even greater. Just look at whose version of Good Golly Miss Molly they play today. Pat Boone or Little Richard and who had the hit at the time.

I think if you analyzed the food at The Bread Bar and at Diwan, you would find that it's not all that different. In fact a number of people have made that point already. And as for Diwan, nobody is saying that it's bad. I happen to like it very much. But it does have its flaws. And it just so happens that Tabla does a good job in the same areas where Diwan has flaws.

Fat Guy - The market isn't relativism because over time it is effiecient. And the restaurants that cook properly stay in business and the ones that don't go away. But, and this is where we differ, I have confidence that over time the market gets it right within a range of acceptability. You obviously don't believe that. You think the market is stupid and people will always choose incorrectly. That's because you are an elitest. Why am I arguing about this? I was just hanging with Paul Oakenfold, who used to work for me many years ago, in the lobby of my hotel. Just thought I'd get a little namedropping in there.

Wilfrid - I think you are wrong. They are in the same dining segment, costing about the same for a meal. Whether you want traditional Indian, or Indian influenced American food, that is just a choice in the segment.

This is just relativism. There is such a thing as too salty, too peppery and too spicy. The market will level out at a standard. I predict that restaurants like Union Pacific, Nobu, Tabla, are indicative of what the standard is going to become. Of course this standard varies by cuisine, and Wilfrid's example of southwestern cuisine always being spicier (hotter) then Provencal will always hold true. But that doesn't really mean anything in the scheme of my statement.

Again, I am describing what is going to happen in fine restaurants. What I see happening is that western chefs are expanding their cuisine by incorporating Asian spicing techniques. Asian cuisine appears to be far more static and unto itself. Except for Japanese cuisine which seems to have a keen interest in the techniques. But when Asian cuisine does incorporate western influences, it's the a western concept of balance that seems to have been adopted.

Well that's a different subject. I agree the complexity of the spicing routines will improve. But I do not think you will see a greater proportion of spices to other ingredients in the cuisine. And I think the balance you see at places like Nobu and Union Pacific is one that will hold. And heavily spiced cuisines like what you get at Diwan for example, or many Thai restaurants, that proportionality will be relegated to the ethnic cuisine category. As for French restaurants integrating Asian spices, the biggest problem is they don't balance them properly. Read Robert Brown's review of Troisgros and how the entire room smelled of Mirin. Rocco DiSpirito balances those spices well, as does Passard at Arpege with his curry dish. But if French chefs use the same proportionality as Asian chefs, it screws up the food because you cannot taste whatever it is they are adding the spice to. That's why I see the trendline as being a westernized version of balance. No chef is going to shower his food with spicy green or red chiles because it screws up the food. But he/she would add a small amount to give a hint of heat.

Bux - No the seven people who ate there do not care. When we enjoyed our meal, it had nothing to do with authenticity.

Why do you say that? My post says that the wine list should be able to give you the same info a sommelier gives you. And if it doesn't, any change is useless and you might as well keep the list organized in a traditional way.

Wilfrid - I agree. What is at issue here is the western versus eastern way of balancing the spices in a dish.

No I disagree with this. Last night I had dinner at Pacific Time in South Beach. Since everyone was having fish, we wanted white wine. They happen to have their list organized by region. So you have to know what varietals are in the bottles to make any sense out of it. But even if they broke their list down to "Bright and Zippy" for highly acidic wines, that wouldn't have been any help for choosing something to go with my Kumamoto Oysers with Asian Spices. How would someone with no knowledge at all figure out that the $39 bottle of 2001 Martin Codax Albarinho, the cheapest white wine on the list, was perfect? For a wine list to be useful, it needs to give people the same information I would give them if I was at the table which is, if you are having the Salmon Roasted in a Tamarind Glaze, here are the 4-5 choices on our list that go with that dish. As far as I'm concerened, all other information is useless and you might as well ask the sommelier.