Steve Plotnicki

We are talking about two different things. You are talking about how immigrants bring their cuisine with them to their new country including setting up restaurants and other food related businesses. I am talking about how governments of countries that produce luxury food products promote them including using chefs to demonstrate the products by preparing their cuisines abroad. For example, if India had high quality spices to sell to the U.S., a good way to do it would be to bring various chefs to the U.S. who are expert at mixing spices and have them cook in different restaurants, or even go on the Today show etc. Or they might even subsidize a restaurant in NYC that features the use of those ingredients. Then if it was a success, it could trickle down to other restaurants, including other cuisines who would pick up various techniques and incorporate them into their own cuisine. Or they might subsidize trips to food conferances and seminars that their famous chefs and food producers are invited to. I'm sure there are many Asian fusion chefs in the U.S. who would love to see some master chef prepare their spice mixture so they can copy it. I don't get the sense that Asian governments are as proactive as European governments about promoting their food products and cuisines are. And that would disadvantage them on the worldwide market in relation to how their cuisines are percieved versus other cuisines. Many years ago, before you probably lived here, the Chinese government subsudized a Sichuan restaurant on 45th street by the U.N. It was enormously popular and it coincided with the boom of Sichuan food in this country. That's the type of thing I am talking about.

Italian cuisine has traveled that way. In fact the Italian government is very active in promoting Italian ingredients and cuisine outside of Italy. The Danish government promotes their salmon in other countries. Look at Floria Danica and Maison du Denemark in Paris, run by the Danish government. We can probably find many food items/cuisines that governments and municipalities promote outside of their own country. But nobody does it like the French. I have a friend who works for the French cultural office in the states. She can take a junket of say a dozen writers on a truffle eating trip through Provence, where they go to olive oil mills, drink Chateauneuf-du-Pape with the producers, and eat in fabulous restaurants or private homes every night of the trip. In fact she talks about going to a party at the home of a large truffle agent and he had bowls of thinly sliced truffles out for people to eat like they were potato chips. Unlimited bowls of them. This is now staring to happen with the Spanish food and wine business with the Spanish government making a huge investment into having foods manufactured for export and spending lots of money to market them. I don't think there is an equivelent of this in any of the Asian countries. I mean the Indian government, Thai government etc., could be flying some of their famous chefs here to cook special meals in order to promote tourism. But I don't see that happening, at least I'm not aware of it if it does happen. But there are no shortage of French, Italian and Spanish chefs who come to NYC to cook as special guests. Of course I can take this comment a step further and say that the European countries subsidize chefs coming to the U.S. because they have something to promote, and the Asian countries don't subsidize it because they don't have anything to promote, but let's not go down that road again .

Problems with the producers? They are open tastings to people in the trade. Do you think that Haut Brion is going to ban Parker? I don't collect Bordeaux so I do not have any basis to know anything about the 2002 vintage. But I can't imagine that Parker is waiting to review a vintage that is exceptionally strong.

Pan - You should try it. I was surprised at how good it is and I find that I always bring a bottle with me to an Indian or Chinese restaurant. In the past, people recommended many different wines. Alsatian Rielings and Gewurztraminers, New Zealand Sauvignon Blancs, but I found they were less then a perfect match. But Auslese is absolutely perfect, being just sweet enough to offset the spicy food. When Stone was in town and a bunch of us went to Dim Sum GoGo, we had a Sliced Beef with Sliced Preserved Ginger dish and the wine was so perfect with the food that it was as if someone had gone into a lab and matched the residual sugar in the wine with the residual sugar in the preserved ginger.

Vedat - Have you eaten in Northern Italy before? Places like del Pescatore, Ai Sorriso etc.? If so, how do the better places on this trip compare? Also, as to your two 18 pointers, which puts them in fine company on your list of world class restaurants, what is it that they are doing differently then a place like Gambero Rosso, which is a long time favorite with Francophiles? Is it just a more contemporary approach, or have they actually moved the yardsticks down the field?

India Girl - Well it isn't that you forgot anything but the patronage aspect has to be fleshed out better. What drove haute cuisine was the number of upper middle class customers it catered to. It appealed to diners from every country in the west. The French instituted an elaborate codification system to log everything that happened, and a great marketing system to explain it and then sell it to diners. Indian cuisine is for Indians. Period. There is no coordinated effort by the Indian government, both on a national and regional level, to lure foriegners to India just to dine there. Or to export the cuisine. As for wine, my employees father taught me that German Ausleses are the perfect wine to drink with Indian food. The 2001 vintage in Germany was a great one. You still might be able to find some of the wines out where you are. They are well worth it and thery are stunning with both Indian and Chinese cuisine.

I'm glad to see they've moved beyond raw peaches .

You are my hero. More so for taking a position on what is good and what is bad and using scores to show how things relate to each other. It exonerates you from any possible disagreement we could have on the merits . Otherwise, I need to study that list before I comment. Bravo.

Wilfird - Because Fat Guy raised this very point on this thread. I will try and figure out a good way to frame a new thread. As for the rest of your post including you response to Liza, I don't deny it could happen. If you read back ealier, I said I think it can happen for all cuisines. But we aren't analyzing what could happen, only what has and is happening. Some cuisines are rigid to the point of being xenophobic. Look at how the people on the board who are Indian reacted to Tabla, a place that is trying to move in that direction? So maybe the reason it hasn't happened is because it is stuck in a time warp and it's proponants won't allow it to escape? One can say easily say that about Italian cuisine. Read what Thecamille quoted from that publication that said Italian food magazines are starting to run articles on the ethnic cuisines that Italians eat when they travel abroad. Like these cuisines aren't really available in Italy. Some cuisines have a long way to go and there are good reasons why. Orik - Good answer. Growing up with a Polish/Jewish father, I can't tell you how right you are. And yes you should try the Babbo tasting menu. All you have to lose is time and money.

First of all, I am only making a statement about how this market values various cuisines. My statement doesn't cover what is obviously a different market. But also, no member has offered any evidence that is exists anywhere. What they have said is that the cooking is so much better there, that they believe it to be an equivelent. That might be true and that might not be true. But based on the dishes they have put forward, I would bet it isn't true. That is a good example. I was thinking of using Acquavit in other reponses but it didin't fit perfectly. But not only are people willing to pay three star prices for salmon, herring and potatoes, they would pay four star prices for it if the food was conceptualized and prepared in a four star manner. I have to say, and I make this statement only based on eating in the cafe, Acquavit is a disappointment because it is exactly what I'm describing could happento any cuisine with the right execution. Where we disagree is on the supply/demand issue. You seem to think it's a lack of demand. And I think there is no capability for supply. In fact let me stick my neck out on this one and try and capture this concept. Maybe you can help me. Providing there isn't an overabundance on the supply side causing demand to spiral downward (the current CD market is an example of this,) pricepoints in restaurants are a function of a problem on the supply side to create greater interest, i.e. demand. How's that one? And to take it a step further, and this is the Plotnickiism part, there is a correlation between the limitation on the supply side and the quality of the cuisine. Okay that's not perfect, but it's a start.

It isn't a hypothetical that states that Indian cuisine can't be prepared at that level, it's just a statistic that shows that it isn't. You want to draw an inference that it isn't because there is no demand. I draw a completely difference inference because I realize there is no capability for a supply. And there can't be a demand if the supply doesn't exist. The assumption is that any cuisine can be sold for the same high price point as any other cuisine. That was the case with Ron's example about Raji. Someone can open an Indian restaurant that shoots for the same check per diner as Daniel. But what stops them is that you can't sell tandoori and stews for $125 a person. It isn't good enough cuisine. Diners would balk at that price. At $125 a person, you need a more refined cuisine then what Indian restaurants (in the west) offer. But if someone was to figure out what that is, then I am sure they could sell it for that price. Look at Tabla. They have found a way to increase the average check size over other Indian restaurants (which is where Zagat lists them) by about $12 a diner. Among other things that $12 can get you is a major upgrade in the quality of the ingredients they use to prepare your food. Think of what it gets you if you increase the check per diner by $30. As someone who worked at both ADNY and Daniel told me, one of the differences between the two places is if you are working at ADNY and you are butchering a chicken and you make a small mistake, they throw it away and you have to start over. At Daniel, the chef comes over and makes a suggestion for how to save the chicken. This is a main reason one place costs $193 a person and the other $93. This is what people pay for because they can taste the perfection that is brought to preparing their dish. And I submit, no Indian restaurant in NYC offers this type of particularity or care in preparing their cuisine. And that gets reflected in the price people are willing to pay for it. I mean what do you think people pay for when they go out to eat, name value? Isn't the name valued attached to a certain level of quality and expertise? If the quality and expertise that is promised is delivered, people are willing to pay alot for it. But if it isn't delivered people won't pay it. Look at my disappointment with Babbo. I would prefer to pay 50% more for a place that executes the cuisine at a higher level then they do. For the same exact food. But I hesitate spending the $66 ot costs to eat there because their execution leaves a lot to be desired.

You mean the food was so good that people were still willing to pay the price as it went up beyond other cuisines?

Well lets see. Maybe Raji's food was better then any French food in town? Or maybe her food was particularly good? Or maybe Memphisites do not particularly like French cuisine? Or maybe it was the fact that Raji cooked French/Indian cuisine? It could be a lot of things Ron. I don't see how that one example rebuts the statistics. But otherwise, where is it that I say that French cuisine has to win? It doesn't. If you can show me that there are other cuisines that people value as much, or more, be my guest. But what you will find is that people are willing to pay a lot of money for high quality food. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, only quality. To the credit of the French, they often cook at a very high level of quality. Indeed, they created the standards as to what high quality means in many instances if not most. But the concept of high quality is not exclusive to them. Anyone can do it. It's just that in my opinion, most cuisines are built on concepts where they top out at some point. But they don't have to. It's all a function of how creative the chefs can be. Wilfrid - Well no that's not it. It is a salient fact that most of the expensive restaurants are French and Japanese. As for how Zagat calculates their prices, I think they are quite conservative. The tasting menu at Jean-Georges and Daniel is $125 I believe. Way more then it is at Babbo. I think your point about how much people would pay to eat at Babbo is at the heart of Plotnickiism. . What we would love to separate is how much of their popularity is based on the low pricepoint. Because if it cost $125 for a meal at Babbo, I don't think they would be turning the tables three times an evening. And one other thing, now that I have laid this out on paper, I believe that if I studied it, the main bone I have to pick with restaurants is that at the pricepoint they want to offer themselves at, I will not be happy with the food they produce. $66 for dinner gets you a meal that os too mass-produced for what I am looking for. But I bet you if dinner there cost $100, and the place was somewhat less popular and the kitchen could be more careful about the food they produce, I would enjoy it more. As for your brain-teaser, you missed one. The reason that people do not pay a lot for pasta is that it doesn't take much expertise to make it. And I think that price is somewhat of a correlary with the level of expertise the chefs need to have. Like I said, you are really paying for time and materials, just like a Mercedes. Craig - In spite of the fact that people will overpay for better quality clothing because of rareness and exclusivity, 8 ply cashmere is a better quality wool then 4 ply. There is no disputing it. You can't measure how much better the quality is on a straight line because the market overvalues small increments in quality. Look at Barbarescos? Gajas cost 3 times as much as everyone elses. Are they three times as good? Who knows. But there is something unique about wines from the Sori Tilden vineyard and the market price reflects that, even if they have overvalued it. But even with that irregularity in the market, you could take Gaja, Giacosa, Spinetta and come up with some way to measure how the market values Barbaresco as oposed to say, Langhe Rosso. And even after you removed the extra vig the market pays for the word Barbaresco, it's still reflective of the fact that it's a better wine them Langhe Rosso is.

Wilfrid - Thanks for making my point exactly. If people opened places like Tamarind, Diwan, Ada and Babbo, and they caused a dining sensation, which they haven't, compared to say the sensation that Jo Jo created when it opened, then someone would invest millions of dollars in a better quality place, providing there was a chef who had invented a cuisine worthy of bankrolling. You keep missing the part that something creative has to happen that the public ratifies through the price they are willing to pay. You really have the formula backwards which now shows me why you have had trouble with this concept. The market doesn't manufacture creativity, creativity is something that happens exlucisive of the market. And if an Indian chef came along who people believed had invented a cuisine that was on par with Robuchon, someone would back the concept. The cheap Indian restaurants on 6th Street wouldn't stop them because they would be able to taste the value in the cuisine. But that hasn't happened, not because a chef can't find backing, it hasn't happened because the chef and the cuisine do not exist. As a result, people are only willing to pay $50 for an Indian meal. That's the best they can do given the current quality of the cuisine available to them. This is how all creative businesses work. I am at the mercy of recording artists actually being able to write good songs and perform them well. Without that, I have nothing to invest my money in. It's the same with restaurants. Creativity drives and expands the market, not vice-versa. In music, an industry where prices are fixed, that plays itself out by selling multiple copies. But in restaurants where prices vary, one of the ways it manifests itself in pricepoint. For some reason you also want to compare Diwan and Rene Pujol. That has nothing to do with my point. My point only goes to how people in NYC feel about the best Indian cuisine available, and the best French cuisine available. And diners seem to feel it's worth almost twice as much to eat the best French meal then the best Indian meal. And if you ask me, they are right because it is more then twice as good. Craig - A premiuim for exclusivity is built into to the price of everything. Italian designer clothing might be overpriced, but if you removed the extra vig they charge for their name, you are still generally dealing with goods of a higher quality then other clothing.

If I may interject a slightly different viewpoint. What propelled French cuisine to greatness was the invention of the carte or menu. If you read Rebecca Sprang, this was the great contribution that the French made to the art of dining. They offered diners a choice of what they could eat, something that was unheard of at the time. This system of dining obviously put a huge demand on chefs to create new dishes. And if you then interposed the concept of restaurants competing with each other for diners, there was a huge incentive for chefs to create new dishes, even new levels of cuisine. In a society where the cooking is going on in people's homes, which means, everyone eats the same food at a meal, the incentive to be creative isn't as powerful. Or valuable for that matter, which is probably what propelled the evolution of French cuisine more then anything else. Restauranteurs would eventually find out that better food had great monetary value and there was a great incentive to capture disposable income, which of course is something the Bourgoisie was acquiring thoughout the era when the cuisine was being expanded.

Suzanne - Your rersponse doesn't address the point I have made. I am not commenting on profitability, I am commenting on how diners percieve the value of various cuisines and the types of restaurants that serve them. The only information I have put forth is that people are willing to pay more for French food then Italian food. The inference I draw from that is because they think it is worth more, i.e. they think it is better. When you think about it, it really isn't a very controversial statement. Because in reality, that is pretty much what we all do isn't it? We pay more money to eat at Bouley and Daniel, or at Sugiyama or Sushi Yasuda, then we would typically be willing to spend at an Italian or Indian restaurant. And you know, I believe that people have come to the right conclusion. Remarkably, the way the food tastes to me pretty much reconciles with how people have value the various cuisines.

Once again, I'm not criticizing the Slow Food Guide for what they do. They do a fantastic job at it. But they don't do everything I need them to do. What that ultimately means is that unless I want to eat the same type of meal at every meal, I have to carry more then one guide book with me. That is a huge no-no when I travel. And at 853 pages, The Slow Food Guide is a chore to schlep around. The best guidebook by far was Gault Millau in the old days. They would point you to everything from 19/5 point restaurants to places where you could get a simple sterak frittes. That is the type of detail I need when I travel. Political correctness and adhereing to Slow Foods elitest standards isn't much use to me if they do not cover all of the different types of places I want to eat it. And yes, I want all levels, from the simplest pizzeria to the fanciest restaurant. Unfortunately, they don't list that info.

Wilfrid - You have failed to get the point. The reason that Indian restaurants do not strive for $93 checks is that people won't pay that much money for Indian food. And the reason that people won't pay it is because nobody has offered a version that is good enough so that people feel that it is worth paying that amount for. I am sure that Italian, Indian, Greek, and any other restauranteur would love to get a $93 check instead of a $50 or $70 one. But they can't because people do not feel the food is worth it. Personally, I happen to agree with those price points and I think they are properly calibrated to what each cuisine has to offer. I am not sure why this simple explanation of free market economics escapes everyone. People pay more for German cars (at the high end) then French cars because they are better cars. And people pay more for French cuisine then Italian cuisine (at the high end) because it is better cuisine. And I am certain, just like the way you would analyze what goes into a Mercedes, if you analyzed the materials and the effort that goes into preparing each cuisine you would find out why they cost different prices, as well as finding out that diners are savvy and they can taste the extra effort and more valuable ingredients on their plates. It all comes down to the fact that people are willing to pay more money for things of better quality. When I make a recording with an orchestra, if I record it in Abbey Road, it costs a fortune, but it sounds better then if I record it in Joe's Studio. And when I release the CD, numerous people comment on how great it sounds. And I'm not talking about experts either. Untrained ears. People aren't stupid. They usually almost always know better quality when they see it, hear it, feel it and taste it. And some extremely large percentage of the time, like 95+%, price correlates to quality. And the reason people won't pay more then $50 for an Indian meal is that the quality isn't there. Believe me I wish it was. Same for Italian. But if you are being brutally honest about whether it is worth paying $93 for a high end Italian or Indian meal (the way Zagat measures it,) it isn't worth it. This is why for special occassion meals, when people are willing to spend more then their usual budget they have set aside for dining, they typically choose French. But of course I have not offered an exact science. Just what typically happens and how people generally feel about each cuisine. Not everyone feels that way, and for sure there are individual examples of restaurants and meals you can have that are irregular. But if you averaged them out, I think the proportionality of what I put forth would pretty much stay the same. In fact, I believe that if you were to investigate what the meals really cost, the spread between French and Japanese and the rest of them increase. Yvonne - Well I meant nothing looked interesting enough to waste the calories. Another one of Mrs. P's unique ways of measuring things. In reality, and to be fair to the restaurant, we had just returned from a seven day eating binge of South Florida. So it would have taken a pretty interesting list of desserts to order anything. Craig - It was pretty stuffed. I was surprised. The '82 Sori Tilden is such an elegant wine, if a bit modern. This was an alcoholic powerhouse but not woody, and not overextracted.

Try this one on; Even at what is considered America's greatest Italian restaurant..... We need to give you a lesson on eGullet inferences. But even after that review, I would agree with that statement based on how the menu reads. Take the mint love letters. That dish is concieved well. Molto has figured out a clever way to serve a lamb, tomato, mint combo. It's very much Sicilian/North African and I personally like that kind of thing. But what they served Mrs. P. was oversauced, not the right temperature, the sauce was somewhat lackluster, there wasn't enough bite to the fillings in the ravioli, etc. So the issue isn't the concept, it's the execution. Personally, I think that sauce would be good over fish. In todays trendy food times, mixing meat and fish is popular and many chefs do a good job of working it out well. When I was at Norman's in Coral Gables last week (spectacular meal,) I had Chilean Seabass over melted Pork Belly and Mrs. P had Diver Scallops over BBQ'd Oxtail and they were both sensational. Mario would do well putting that sauce on a white fish with firm but flaky flesh that could stand up to it. But that's just my .02. I'm surprised you didn't ask about the Costa Russi. The wine was pretty rustic for Gaja, although not as much as a Giacosa would be.

But your post is titled; "Osterie d'Italia by Slow Food" What does that have to do with Michelin and why do you keep talking about it? No matter how many flaws you point out, they aren't relevant to a discussion about whether the Slow Food Guide does a good job or not. It isn't any better as a guide because Michelin uses parameters that people are unhappy with. But let's be honest, Veronelli, l'Espresso and Gambero Rosso, all pretty much see things eye to eye with Michelin. Your point about Osterie being good because Michelin, as well as possibly the others, are bad, doesn't follow. You need to defend Osterie on it's own. I have listed a number of things it doesn't do well. You can either respond to them or not. But talking about Michelin doesn't advance your argumert. If you want to see a very excellent and useful guide, Gambero Rosso printed an English guide to Rome. They really do a good job delineating the types of meals you can have there. That it is in English is a big plus, but even if it wasn't, it's usefulness would be easy to pick up and the format is better then the one in the Slow Food guide.

Craig - I'm not sure what you are asking? Is it about the pasta or the greatest restaurant part?

It usually isn't delicious in the U.S., just bland. In Tuscany you can find some delicious versions, but it is quite often bland there as well. But all that is aside from the point. By putting something roasted with rosemary on the menu, U.S. Italian restaurants feel that they can call themselves Tuscan, when there is more to it then that. Even Tuscan beans, which can be a great thing, many restaurants labeling themselves Tuscan don't even have beans on their menu. I would like just one restauarnt in NYC to offer a riso al salto, one of my favorites. And it is so easy to make. It's just leftover saffron risotto fried in butter like a pancake. But if I want to eat it, I have to fly 4000 miles to Milan. That's pretty silly considering the hundreds of Northern Italian restaurants in this country.

Craig - You can't make your point about the Slow Food Guide by trashing the Michelin Guide. If you believe that Slow Food is so great, you need to show its usefellness. I agree it is useful but its usefulness is limited unless you want to eat the same type of meal at every meal. When I want a meal, it is a function of the type of formality I want at that paticular moment. I might want to sit at a pizzeria and have something light and then gelati, but I might want a formal dinner. One thing the rating systems let you know, and this is regardless of whether it is Michelin or anyone else, is what level meal a restaurant offers. A Michelin star or two, or a Gault Millau rating of 15 or higher, is pretty definitive information about the type of experience you are going to find. The Slow Food snail is not as informative. It just means good food. I need more information before I make my choice. Especially when I am travelling and my days often center around meals. The wrong meal for the circumstances and the day can turn out pretty lousy. Or for example, if I wanted to sit down and have a very modern Italian meal, say at that restaurant in Rivoli that Heston Blumenthal recommended, how would I find that if I was using the Slow Food Guide? Well the answer is I wouldn't be able to because it isn't in there. I'd have to buy one of the other guides that list it. Or in the Slow Food Guide, the listing for Alba is Tratorria dell Arco, a place that is okay but a bit ordinary, but flipping through it, it seems they do not list Da Cesare which might be the best restaurant in the region (or used to be) and which is a short drive out of town. Or they don't list Tratorria della Posta in Monforte d'Alba which Pete Rodgers on this site raves about. So yes, I can eat well by using that guide but I have to eat the way they want me to it. There are other valid ways to dine in Italy that I am interested in. The Slow Food organization has placed the process they like restaurants to conform to ahead of other considerations including where you might get the best food tnat isn't according to their standards. I note that in the 8 listings in Firenze, they list only one place that serves a bistecca. No representations as to it being the best one, just that it serves one. I need better info then that because that is one of the mundane things I'd like to know the next time I go to Firenze.

Yes but what wine did you drink? My bill with the Costa Russi was a bit more then $66 as well.

Up late here. That sounds good. Tell me though, do they have restaurants like that in Pakistan or in India? But you know there is also another facet to this. There is more to it then just innovative cooking. There is a certain level of refinement that you get when you go to a place like Le Gavroche that has to happen too. I'm not saying that the meal you described doesn't have that, just pointing out there is interesting 3 star level cuisine (NY Times that is) and interesting 4 star level cuisine, and what separates them is a level of perfection and detail that I haven't experienced in Indian cuisine. It's funny because at dinner at Babbo tonight, I was telling Mrs. P about this thread. When I started to explain the position I've been taking about a haute Indian cuisine, she cut me off in mid-sentence and said "I'd like to try that." It was as if she knew exactly what I meant, and that it was something not available to us as far as she knew. I think you would find that many people would be interested in that, not just people from India and Pakistan.