Steve Plotnicki

I firmly believe that cuisine has been moving away from spicing being the key, to ingredients and their flavor being the key with spicing being secondary. It's the history of Western cuisine, and Asian cuisine where they could afford to eat this way (Japan.) So when you say that subtle can be defined as the balance within the spicing routine, you are just placing more emphasis on the importance of spicing to the overall outcome and giving it higher status. I believe, and it's evident if you look at popular Asian restaurants, they are adopting a globalized view of balanced spicing that is fairly consistant. Of course this refers to fine dining, not what the general populations eat day in and day out. So what the Thai population eats in their 90 degree daily climate isn't really relevant. But the Thai green curry that the rest of the world is going to eat (if they adopt that technique) is relevant. Tony - I agree with you 100%. But I also firmly believe that as a practical matter what your post comes down to are Asian chefs using less spice in proportion to other ingredients.

All wine lists are useless if you aren't expert because they do not adequately explain which wines to pair with which foods.

Soba - You miss the point. Nobody cares that Diwan is a real Indian restaurant and Tabla isn't. You are imposing a level of specificity that is outside of the context of comparison. Let me try it again; 1. Seven people at The Bread Bar at Tabla, six of whom were at the Diwan banquet 2. All six people agreed they enjoyed their meal at Tabla more then Diwan 3. Fat Guy, you and Anil said you can't compare them because one is a real Indian restaurant and one is a pretender I say that response is a non-sequitor Nobody compared the two on authenticity. We compared them based on the level of success each achieved regarding what they set out to do and how far they took their concepts. The most prevalent statement being, the tastes were bright at Tabla and muddied at Diwan. I attributed that to overspicing. None of this has anything to do with authenticity. Just how good a job they did at both places. Now if you do not think Tabla is any good because it isn't authentic, that is okay. But I don't see how those statements reconcile,. Saying it isn't authentic, and saying it isn't any good because it isn't authentic are circular. And the reason you are caught up in that circular argument is is because our original statement did not revolve around authenticity but performance. But nobody wants to discuss the performance because it seems that being authentic gives you a pass on performance. It's kind of like why discuss how well an authentic Indian restaurant performs in relation to Tabla because Tabla is disqualified based on grounds of lack of authenticity before you ever compare them.

Adam - Gee I didn't say this either. You are grabbing positions I've taken on other threads in different contexts and overlaying them on this thread. I really do not believe there is a dispute about overspicing. I think there are two camps. Ethnic which overspices and modernized versions of those cuisines which have toned the spicing down. In reality, when you say the standard is different for different cuisines, you are just pointing to cuisines that have been isolationist for a long time, and they have developed local custom based on how they use indiginous ingredients. But once you view cuisine on a global basis, the same spicing routines can easily be described as out of balance or overspiced. And I will stick my neck out and say the following. As globalization spreads throughout the world, the trendline is moving towards my definition of balanced. And if you ate in restaurants as much as I do, you would realize that this is the case. At the highest level of cuisine (meaning the most expensive places,) spicing routines revolve around subtlety more and more each day.

I think they cater to the same crowds. The people at Tabla on the night when I was there could have easily been at Tamarind or Diwan. Because they are both fruits. Except this is more like comparing a Granny Smith with a McIntosh.

Actually another way it varies is that the rapid boiling (bouille) emulsifies the olive oil and the spices and gives the broth a certain texture. One that is only found as far as I can tell in French cuisine .

Starining and the fish are cooked whole then fileted Cioppino is just a Zuppa di Pesce with crab from what I can remember. And Zarzuela, shellfish? Can't remember if they use fin fish. But straining? Neither one I believe.

Do you mean that the Indian diners at Tabla don't eat "real" Indian food too? All I know is that the seven people at Tabla would call their meal Indian. Saying that Tabla isn't an Indian restaurant is like saying that Nobu isn't Japanese, or that Patria isn't Latin. I

Adam - Since what my original post pretty much said was that underspicing and overspicing are bad, and propely balanced spicing adds to the success of a dish, including the richness of the broth, I'm wondering why you are finding fault with that statement. Maybe you didn't understand what I meant? Wilfrid - Well whether they use those techniques or not doesn't matter. Bouillabaisse is the only fish soup I know that employs those techniques. But if I have missed any, please list them.

Gee did I say any of that? I said that BB is a superior fish soup because those two techniqes, among others, make it a better soup. I didn't say the French haev an exclusive on those techniques. But I did express my surprise that other cuisines do not either copy them, or come up with techniques of their own.

No, no, no, many cuisines spice properly. A zuppa di pesce is spiced well.

Well, strained soup is preferable to unstrained yes? And fish filets served whole are better then crumbling in the soups from being cooked too long yes? So it would appear that any cuisine that follows a similar strategy would come up with a superior product. What puzzles me is that these two steps are so simple, why didn't other cuisines either come up with the same or similar ideas?

Because they don't use French technique . It is probably that they don't use any technique other then cutting up the fish and placing them in water with spices and vegetables.

Adam - Good try. Can't say why those soups are not the match of bouillabaisse but the choices aren't many . There is the type of fish used, and the technique to prepare them. What makes a BB a BB is the straining, balance of vegetables to spicing, and serving the fish whole and fileted, not cut up as part of the stew.

Which white and red wine drinking experiences would you like to live all over again?

Of course we are. There isn't any other way to communicate to people what it is they are going to experience. So we are stuck with labels. Unfortunately, quite often creativity is way ahead of how we label things. So Trio is labeled "French" even though that isn't a perfect fit. Yet somehow it manages to be accurate.

I notice we have shifted somewhat from cultural bias to cultural snobbery. I think that the reason that Tabla and Diwan are in the same segment is that when I want a meal with Indian flavors, I would consider both. I wouldn't reach the issue of do I want a traditional meal, or a westernized version until I decide if I'm in the mood for that flavor profile. If this is a more casual use of Indian cuisine then Fat Guy or Anil has applied, well they are going to have to live with that. But I believe that this is a typical standard for people to in NYC to apply. And if I apply this standard, which is really, all cuisines start out equal, for me there are a few very common flaws in traditional Indian meals that I run into no matter where I happen to be eating them. They are typically overspicing and overcooking. In fact the dish I liked least at The Bread Bar was the tandoori hanger steak which was both overspiced and overcooked/tough. In fact I believe that all seven people there would say that why we enjoyed Tabla is they worked hard at correcting this "flaw." Now I don't know what this comment on my part has to do with cultural bias, culinary preferences, spice parsing, or any of the other things raised in this thread. Overspiced and overcooked are not as preferable as spiced correctly/moist. Of course we can spilt hairs over what spiced correctly means, but someone is going to have show why the standard the seven of us applied isn't the right one. Especially in light of Simon criticizing the spicing at Diwan.

Anil - Yes but in the marketplace it is competing in, it is Indian. The protestations that it isn't, doesn't get anyone anywhere. And if they are incomparable, you are going to have to do a better job of explaining why then Fat Guy did because I assure you that all seven people are waiting to hear that answer. And the reason I know that is because I've been recieving special secret PM's from them.

Checking in from sunny Miami Brach which is a relief after the crap winter we've been having in NY. Axtually I think Tamarind in London is more like Diwan. Bombay Brasserie has no equal. Classic food but the decor is a one of a kind,

That's right. When you decide to have dinner at Ducasse, it's a self-fullfilling ratification of the position YOU WANT TO TAKE. You have taken that position because you have considered it among all the other choices and you have concluded it the best choice. And you didn't make that choice randomly. You were knowledgeable about it. In fact, you considered it to such a great extent that you were willing to conclude that it would warrant your paying $160 a person for dinner before tip, tax and wine. Which probably means that dinner is going to be $350-$400 a person, as opposed to the 3/4 of that price it would take to eat at a place like J-G. So if anyone is a follower of P-ism Fat Guy, it's you. In fact, I'm going to put your picture on the masthead. I don't see how your position on Diwan holds in light of Simon saying the spicing routine is not very complex. At least if I was really missing something you would have some air in your baloon. But it appears, as I suspected because I assume if the spicing routine at Diwan was really so complex and unusual, I would taste it. So I didn't miss anything. I was on firm ground in my criticism. And if anything, I will defer to Simon's superior knowledge to yours. As for the rest of your post, let's keep it on topic. There is no reason for it to get nasty and end up with namecalling.

Stone - You are missing the salient point about P-ism. It's who does it and how much the people who are doing it know about what they are doing. You either believe that each market segment is knowledgable about what they like, or you don't. I personally like to think they are. So the proffer for cuisine says that only the most knowledgable people are willing to pay the price differential that the best food costs. And as a result, that is who would have the most informed opinions about it. Didn't I just describe the people on this board? The reason the people on this board are reliable information about food is that they have invested more time and money into pursuing good food then other people have. Unfortunately if you want to do the same thing for films you have to come up with new methodology. The cost of going to see Titanic is the same as the cost for seeing Monsoon Wedding. So you would have to gather critical information from knowledgable sources. It's harder to identify them without a simplehighest price willing to pay for it analysis. Fat Guy - Well let's review the bidding here. The reason we are in this discussion is you couldn't tolerate a post I made that said that six out of seven people who attended the eGullet banquet, and who went to the Bread Bar at Tabla all agreed that Tabla was much better. In fact Jaybee sent me me an email about it that said; the food at The Bread Bar at Tabla was far more enjoyable than the food eaten at Diwan at the banquet. I have no incentive to return to Diwan, was disappointed in the taste and texture of the meats, particularly the lamb. The Bread Bar at Tabla was a complete peasant surprise and I will definitely return there. Now for some reason you decreed that you are more knowldegable about Indian food then the other six people. Except I receieved this email from a user on the site who is a Tabla fan and wrote; I wonder why everyone ignored your "six out of seven point?" Now I don't know whether your position about the subtlety of the spicing has any validity or not. In fact, in accordance with Plotnickiism, I defer to authority on these issues and you say you are expert so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But instead of railing at me for not knowing and continuing to be ignorant about it, where is it that I can sample these subtle spicing routines? If it's Diwan, someone better come with me there and hold my hand while I experience it. Because either I don't get it, or it really isn't worth anything in the scheme of contemporary dining and I've already figured that out. And that's the part you still haven't explained. Why is what you are describing worth anything in the context of cuisine? Because wine is something that is only for the people who like to drink it. Wine collecting and gaining knowledge about varietals and locations etc., has nothing to do with cuisine. It's an adjunct to cuisine. Like Scotch is an adjunct or port is an adjunct. Now what is it that you are describing about Indian spicing. Is it cuisine, or is it an adjunct to cuisine? Because if it is an adjunct, at the moment I have no interest because my adjunct box is full up to the top and flowing over. But in the meanwhile, I happen to like to eat Indian food and I enjoy places like Diwan and The Bread Bar. And unfortunately, everyone will have to suffer my uninformed criticism. Actually if you read what India Girl wrote on the Spice thread, she sort of agrees with me. She writes about Indian restaurants in the U.S. overspicing the food. This would also be the case from my experience with the Indian restaurants in London. So if there is a different way that Indian cuisine is presented, it's certainly not available here. And then if you read Yvonne;s quote from Julie Sahni and her description of subtle spicing, it sounds like what you would call "Frenchified." Hey maybe I'm right and maybe you're wrong and your palate has been trained on overspiced food. So how do I know you are right? Point me to the group of people who practice this method of cooking, where when I walk away from eating it, I will have tasted the food and not the spices. Because the issue for me, which you would see if you weren't ignoring what all seven people at that dinner were saying (with Toby and Nina saying it on this thread,) is that the spicing at Tabla was mild enough for the flavors of the food to come through. And the spicing at Diwan muddled the flavors. What any of that has to do with the complexity of the spice mixture, I don't know. You have shifted the pea in order to assail my preference of Tabla without ever responding to the original criticism of Diwan which is that the food is overspiced, and as such, not as enjoyable to eat as food that is subtly spiced. It doesn't make a difference if the overspicing is complex overspicing or not. It has to do with how we meaaure cuisine. Indian cuisine doesn't get a special pass that says, we're allowed to overspice because we value that in our cuisine.

Wilfird - You are going to be doing a hell of a lot of mediocre eating. I ate in Bamonte's about two years ago and it was one of the more disappointing Italian meals I've had in the city. It is really D quality food. And I'm red sauce lover but that place didn't cut it. The place that used to be good was Crisci's on Lorimer Street but they closed down about seven years ago. Cono is another one not to write home about but, they have one dish on their menu, I want to call it a mountain platter or something like that. Now that was worth making the schlep for. I actually was born in the neighborhood those restaurants are in, and my Grandmother lived there until she died. So I know the hood pretty well. I haven't been at Parkside for years. But before I moved into Manhattan (1987), I lived about a mile down the road and used to eat there often. Unless they have changed their stripes, it's just a higher end(meaning pricier) version of Queens Italian/American cuisine. I stopped eating there in maybe 1989, as I didn't find it good enough quality. Good local color on the bocce courts across the street though. Manducatti's, I remember when they first opened about 20 years ago. Ida was cooking back then too. That's a step up from the others IMO but still not at Manhattan quality. But occassionaly she hits a dish. Great wine list, but you need to schmooze them to get the good stuff which is in hiding and not on the list. But I managed to squeeze a 1978 Conteno Bussia Soprano out of them and I hadn't been there in about 18 years and they don't know me from Adam. Piccolo Venezia is the cream of that crop IMO, and yet it is still not great. But you can have a nice thick grilled veal chop that will aproximate what you can get in Manhattan. Super wine list. It used to be well priced but then it got picked over. I haven't been there in a few years so I don't know what shape it's in. Actually, it's very close to Ali and Moustafa and you might be better off if the car steered its way to Steinway Street instead . I was at da Tomasso in November. I love Tomasso. Not the restaurant, the guy. He is a big teddy bear. A hugable guy who sings opera in the restaurant on the weekends. But the food, well, he tries hard. It is better then most of the other restaurants but still disappointing. Great wine list though. But he is "out" of lots of things. It helps to know him or to come with an letter of introduction and then somehow what he is out of magically appears. But if you can talk Italian wine you will make a friend for life. Roberto's in the Bronx is one place I just can't figure. People rave about it and to me the food tastes like he flavors everthing with marsala wine. I've been there three times and I've been resolutely disappointed on each occassioin with the low point being a fishy tasting and smelling swordfish steak one evening. I had some good meals at Cucina in Park Slope over the years but I understand there has been some change in chefs/ownership and that m friend Mark Straussman from Campania on 21st street is doing the cooking? But to me, Don Peppe's is best in show. Actually I dug up an old review I posted on Chowhound in April of 2001, "Okay the header was an attention grabber but it certainly is among the very best. I have been eating there for almost 25 years and I can only recall one or two meals that weren't spectacular. For those who have never been, this place is the inspiration for both Carmine's in Manhattan as well as La Parma on the Island. I guess inspiration is to kind a word as the other places ripped off the concept from Pepe's. So after visiting my mother in Bayside last night we headed on over to South Ozone Park and our simple meal of a tossed salad, shrimp marinara (with sauce to die for) a broiled t-bone steak that was as soft and flavorful as anything they serve in Manhattan (besides almost being the size of Manhattan) along with an order of fried peppers and onions was sublime to say the least. I even cheated and brought home an order of their famous Chinese Chicken with sausage (the house version of chicken cacciatorre)and I'm about to sit down and blow through it along with the leftover steak. Their linguine and clam sauce is a greasy classic that is 10x better than any other version I've ever had. And the lobster dinner with the lobster being poached in tomato sauce and served with clams and mussels is enough food for a small army. When they offer you spaghetti to start and ask you if you want the pasta served with the sauce the lobster was cooked in SAY YES. Places like Rao's and Dominick's in the Bronx get all the big press but in my opinion Pepe's blows them away. Get in your car and go. This is what red sauce is all about." A restaurant that is not on your list that deserves a visit is The Pines in the Bronx. Another one I haven't been to in years but it was a good place for things like Mussels Posilipo. And I don't know about the quality of Amerigo's anymore, a place in the Throgs Neck section of the Bronx. It used to be right up there with the best of them and had a Spaghetti Carbonara that was to die for.

Suzanne - Do you not think these are real lyrics? Real Lyrics I also think we are generalizing, and making broad sweeping statements, because we are limited to what restaurants present us with. I'd be the first to admit that what you get over in Asia probably has nothing to do with what you get over here. But this discussion is really about restaurant cuisine for what we would call, international diners. And the discussion is really about how cuisines alter themselves in order to make the proper impact outside of their country of origin. What this dicsussion really needs are examples of great restaurant cuisines that are not western in oreintation, like the great seafood place Bourdain went to in Singapore, along with a detailed explanation of why they are great. But to hold up examples of spice parsing etc. as a different way of dining, without saying, here is where you can do that and this is what you will find there, we are left with stereotypes.

You must be joking. If it wasn't Batalli, that place would be toast. And it should be toast now. But it's Batalli. Yvonne - I agree it doesn't have to be like that. But that is what gets presented in restaurants here.

If you asked me to decide what it is, I would say that Trio is French in the same way I would say that about The French Laundry. Even though I don't find the cuisines to be anything alike. It's more about the strategy of how ChefG builds the meal and the overall architecture of the dishes that makes me think that the root of the cuisine it is based on French technique. Though I could always be wrong. But what makes it interesting is that some of the concepts are applied to famously American ingredients and dishes. Or that techniques from other cuisines (shabu shabu for example) are thrown into the mix. In general I think diversity is a very American concept. But ultimately the way the meal is organized is what makes it feel French is .