Steve Plotnicki

What do you mean by real music?

No. Hermant isn't a famous chef on the food channel. If Batalli wasn't the chef at Otto, they wouldn't have any stars. In fact they might even be out of business by now . I didn't make a statement, I asked a question. Obviously spice parsing is an important aspect of the cuisine in India. My question is whether it is transferrable to countries outside India. That's what I mean by saying"legitimate." Generally accepted as a legitimate thing for a cuisine to revolve around for non-Indians.

torakris - What an excellent post. Tell me, why didn't the use of spices fade in Asian countries like India and Thailand? How come the de-spicing of cuisine is a European phenomenon?

Wilfird - No you have distorted my proffer. Let's see if I can get it right. The reason there is no Indian restaurant in NYC shooting for four stars is that they couldn't get it. It makes complete sense to me that the top restaurants are limited to two stars, and why Tabla has three. I think there is an inherent weakness in the cuisine (which might be a function of how it is presented here) that prevents it from moving above that rating. Whether a different approach, be it the Tabla style westernization or the complex spice parsing that Fat Guy raised is the answer, that doesn't really matter. The traditional cuisine that we get falls short of the three and four star mark. Now how does this relate to money? I'm not saying that all Indian restaurants cost less then every French restaurant, I am saying that if you take each cuisine and see where it tops out pricewise, a number of cuisines would be well above Indian. And I think it's a fair measurement because there is no shortage of supply. The only thing that makes a cuisine top out pricewise are the limitations within the cuisine. So if the average check at a top Indian restaurant in town is say $65 per person, and it is $90 at a place like Craft, and it is $135 at Daniel, that is telling information about how people value each dining experience. But the fact that Fleur et Sel might be $65 a person has no bearing on the measurement. It's where the preponderance of the top end restaurants by cuisine top out, that's what tells us something about how people value each cuisine. Glyn - You are 100% correct about Indian cuisine needing to be subtle to appreciate the spicing. The problem is that it isn't subtle. Yes it is at Tabla. But it's not very subtle at Tamarind. And when I say subtle, I do not mean in relation to the other spices, I mean in relation to the proteins. In fact I wish an Indian restaurant would come along where the spices were balanced that way. But then you would say it was Frenchified . That brings us back to the same question. Is a cuisine based on parsing spices a legitimate cuisine that we can build on? Or is it an outdated and outmoded concept, even though it is delicious in its own right, and is the way forward a more contemporary balancing of proteins and spices?

Of course there is the spicing in pie, I mean pate.

The central ingredient is the Rascasse or Rockfish in English. It is a local fish (to the Mediterranean that is) and you can't make a good bouillabaisse without it. How it makes the other ingredients and spices blend together to create a whole new flavor is a mystery to everyone. But you might be onto something here. Because in reality, a BB isn't that different from Indian cooking strategy because it is a ground spice mixture that is added to a broth. But what sets it apart is how the spices are balanced in the broth.

Never before have I had such a good setup for Plotnickiism. Stone - No, Titanic was a perfect movie for the market of people who like those types of movies. In fact, no movie before it or after it can match its level of perfection. But of course it is not the perfect movie for the more discriminating filmgoer, i.e., a completely different market segment. It's irrelevent. The market corrects itself with time. Sticking with Indian food, considering how many people of Indian and Pakistani descent are immigrating to the U.S. (I always feel like we give Pakistanis short shrift,) their cuisine will influence the market in certain ways. Look at how Italian wood burning pizza ovens caught on. Tandoors can catch on the same way. But that holds true for the people who sold Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, B.B. King, Muddy Waters, Chuck Berry, James Brown, Otis Redding, etc., all things that are exemplary popular culture for their time, whether they are good or not as art. But your point assumes that such a thing as top-end Indian cuisine exists to begin with! What gives you that idea? You have no basis to make that statement. You just think that it has to logically hold true. I disagree. I happen to believe that the most likely scenario is that it would be disappointing. Well it proves they haven't rejected the cuisine based on grounds of inauthenticity.

Wilfy - But I thought I said to Stone earlier that it's the fine dining segment I am describing. That would bascially mean NY Times 2 to 4 star restaurants. The real question here is, how come French is the only cuisine that gets 4 stars from the New York Times? And why is there not a single Indian restaurant, including Diwan, with more then 2 stars? Tabla has three stars, although I do not know if I agree with that.

Stone - It doesn't beg any question(s). It is nothing more, or nothing less, then what people are willing pay for. The only people looking to ask the question of why, are people who aren't happy with the results of the survey. People are always willing to pay for the same thing. Quality of materials, quality of preparation, quality of service and quality of name attached to a product. Consumers, in my experience are savvy. And they are quite discriminating about what they are willing to pay for. And before you act like the wool is being pulled over their eyes because they are missing out on the cuisine of the Moghul Court, you better demonstrate that they had the ability to try it and reject it. Or you better demonstrate that it was ever any good in the first place and it all isn't folklore. If I had a dollar for every food item that people used to think was good, but that actually sucked, I'd be a wealthier guy. I think you would find that most good things are not rejected by the public. They just get slottled into the continuum called fine dining at the pricepoint people are willing to pay for the level of experience it offers. No I'm just applying the standards the market applies. They are the ones applying French standards, actually western standards. I'm just commenting that its the right approach. I do not see any Indian restaurants revolving around spice parsing. But I do see ones like Tabla and Tamarind (London) and Zaika showing up and charging a hefty price for a westernized version of Indian cuisine that they offer. That's the trendline. Spice parsing is losing out to luxury proteins that are mildly spiced in the style of Indian cuisine. And it isn't that I like it that way, INDIAN DINERS LIKE IT THAT WAY. Go see who is eating in those restaurants. Like I said, it's about 2/3 from the sub-continent.

Actually I was trying to say the exact same thing that you said. Price point is related to the level of experience you desire. It has nothing to do with ethnicity ot type of food. And I agree, Tamarind is a higher level dining exerience than say Gigot is. But that is reflected in the cost of the average check. That is exactly my point. But you have also asked the threshold question. Why there aren't very expensive Indian restaurants in NYC? Or London for that matter? But don't stop there. There aren't very expensive Chinese restaurants, Thai restaurants, German restaurants, etc. And you know why? People won't pay the really high prices for things like Tandoori. To get the really high prices you need to offer people unusual techniques and/or ingredients that you can't find elsewhere.

But the main reason you can't compare Montrachet to Sauternes are 1) they make what, a thousand cases of Montrachet and they makes tens of thousands of cases of Sauterne. So the supply side is way out of whack. They are also used differently with Montrachet being a wine drunk with the meal and Sauterns being drunk only with a Foie gras course or with dessert. So they are incomparable right there.

You know I just don't agree with that. If you stick to, the technique is supposed to enhance the expression of the central ingredient school (and spicing is in reality but just one technique,) the unique qualities of the central ingredient dictate what the balance needs to be. And there is still a range, but it is really quite narrow.

What they might have lacked were great chickens and lambs due to geography. Or, they might have had wonderful spices that they realized were valuable and they built a cuisine around what they thought was a disply of wealth. It could be countless reasons. But whatever, I don't see the trendline in cuisine going down the road of spicing techniques in this manner being something that dominates cuisine in the near future. Does anybody else see that? Adam - Well I didn't say choose for me, I said the free market chooses for itself. And if someone believes that they can build a successful business on the concept of complex spicing, be my guest. I'll support it and I hope the market does too because that sounds interesting. But my gut says that is too esoteric a concept.

It's an issue of balance. I believe there is a direct correlation to the quality of the ingredients and the level of spicing applied. And I don't mean hot. I don't necessarilly think hot masks flavor. I mean the ratio of tasting spice to ingredient. I think that is what the issue is. When I had dinner with Tony et al at New Tayyab, that bitter gourd curry dish we had was terrific. But the actual taste of the bitter gourd was somewhat masked by the spicing routine. I think a more modern version of cuisine would alter the balance between the bitter gourd and the spices. Whoever made the comment about the Thai curry and Ruth's Chris is funny IMHO. With all due respect, if you were brought up to eat it that way, you wouldn't be throwing anything at anyone. Why do you think that way of serving steak is less legitimate then any other way? Can't we just determine these things based on if they taste good or not? I mean it's possible that a steak in green curry tastes good isn't it?

Adam - No. That's how the elites would want to describe it. What it really means is every class of people who are interested and can afford it. It covers numerous economic groups. But in reality, a tasting menu made up of complex spicing routines would be expensive, and would exclude most diners Stone - When you say "Americans" you mean all Americans. I am describing people who would be called interested in fine dining. In that way Adam's point about BBQ is not fine dining. Wilf - I agree. But my gut tells me that it would ultimately be unrewarding. Like a dinner of eight different cheeses. Lacking balance which it would get from the proteins. And that is the argument in favor of the Tablas of the world. The proffer would be, ethnic cuisines have been subject to all sorts of geographic and socio-economic influences that have compromised the cuisines somehow. And moving the cuisine into an environment where you aren't lacking anything, the constraints are taken off the cuisine and it turns into something different. I find that a quite natural process and extremely American in nature. In fact there is no other country in the world where this happens quite the way it happens here. Even though Australia seems to be doing a pretty good job of it right now. Yes but they balance them in a western style which is what they do at Tabla.

Fat Guy - While I can understand that a cuisine can revolve around a spicing routine, I have not heard why that isn't an outdated and outmoded concept that is being slowly obliterated every day by the free market? And what I really don't understand is why people have an investment in one position or the other. They are all cultural constructs and the only difference between traditional tandoori lamb and braised brisket of beef in Indian spices is the tens of millions of people who have already accepted it versus the tens of millions who will be willing to accept something new because they have access to a free market. Restaurants like Tabla can either be compared to restaurants like Diwan or they can't. If you want to compare them using the parameters of Indian cuisine, you will surely find that Diwan comes out of top. But if you want to use modern day Western style dining, then based on the meal I ate Tuesday, The Bread Bar wins hands down. And if I can't reconcile them my way, because you are going to accuse me of not "getting it" because authentic Indian cuisine revolves around "parsing the spices," I can only ask two questions. One, is that a legitimate concept for a modern day cuisine to revolve around and two, where can I sample spicing so magnificent that it will make me want to sign up for the next spice tasting class at Executive Spice Seminars? Because the first time I tasted '61 Gaja or '83 Cheval Blanc or '90 Chave Hemitage, I got it right away. But here it is alluding me. And maybe it's because of my western palate? But maybe that isn't the case and we can get you to admit that spices are not food, and you are describing a skill that revolves around an adjunct of food and not food itself? Simon - That isn't my argument. My argument is that Indian diners have accepted the cuisine. Obviously they are not alienated by it. And in fact it seems like it has attracted them. Especially young diners. If Fat Guy's proffer about parsing spices was legit, someone should market it that way to diners. In fact, someone already should have. Let them make tasting menus showing spice progressions so people can learn about it and experience it. That's what they do in French cuisine, Japanese cuisine etc. But my kishkes tell me that although there must be a million ways to make a curry powder, there is no there there. Their burden (meaning traditional Indian chefs) is for complex spicing techniques to capture the imagination of American diners so they are interested in discerning the differences when dining. Just like Fat Guy talked about the difference between various types of tuna in sushi. But tuna is food, not a spice, and I don't see why people would find spicing routines sufficiently interesting (at least any of the ones I have tasted) when they are in competition with great tasting ingredients, i.e. proteins.

Fat Guy - Yes I agree with you. If you want to eat complex spice mixtures, you are better off at Diwan then at Tabla. But if you want to eat good food, based on this past Tuesdays meal, the Bread Bar at Tabla won in a rout . But I am quite happy for you to keep your superior position on this, and for me to keep my inferior, ignorant and closed minded one. And tonight, when I am wolfing down my luxury proteins at Fairway, I hope you are enjoying yourself for dinner at Penzey's where you will be parsing a large plate of spices. What I find odd is that everyone is ignoring that I reported that six out of seven diners overwhelmingly preferred Tabla to Diwan. Were they imagining things? Do you think they can't tell? Is it possible there was a great improvement at Tabla? Wilf - Well I will Plotnickiize that statement. I believe a cuisine that revolves around spice combinations and parsing them, is not as legitimate as a cuisine that revolves around high quality proteins where the technique is to bring out the best qualities of the proteins and to compliment them with spices. In fact, given the clientele at Tabla being what appeared to be 2/3 people from the subcontinent, I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way about it.

They used to have one. Not sure if they still do. Most restaurants do. Even Trio has one if you want to order three courses. But I understand that El Bulli has dispensed with the menu. WD-50 has dispensed with part of the menu, the part that explains what's on the menu. But that's just a minor technicality.

Simon - Well yes but this is what I noticed has improved. They have toned down the intensity of the spicing routine so that the food now tastes balanced. It never used to be that way in the past. It used to be hit and miss. At least not when I used to go there which was 2-3 years ago. It used to be that they thought they could take a Western dining concept, luxury proteins, and spice them like Indian food is spiced. What you ended up with was something out of balance. In fact I had this experience last fall at Zaika in London. They have a risotto dish on the menu and the dish is so highly spiced that it isn't enjoyable. If they toned it down, the dish would probably be enjoyable. And it was this "changed" aspect of the cuisine that made it taste good. You could actually taste the quality and the flavor of the brisket and oxtail, something that would probably have been drowned out by the spices when they first opened. Fat Guy - You mean I am displaying a preference for meats that actually taste like meat because they are of good quality and they aren't drowned out with spices? A preference for better quality is a bias? I would think that a blindness towards better quality just because something is authentic and disregarding that the standards could be better, now that's a bias. I'm not interested in labels. I only care about good food. I personally don't care if that brisket dish is authentic, French, Chinese or anything else. Good food is good food and it transcends point of origination. And all I can tell you is that six of the seven people at Tabla were at the Diwan banquet and to a person, they all thought the Bread Bar was much better then Diwan. And it has nothing to do with their preferences, and everything to do with their preferring better food regardless of preferences .

Fat Guy - You know I am a dollars to donuts type of guy. I think that based on the amount of food they serve on the typical tasting portion, including what it has to cost, and the much smaller physical space it uses, how much can they put on a plate? It has to be a reduced scope. But I've found that the restaurants are now falling into two categories. Atelier was in the first category, and from the photos, the Fifth Floor too. They just serve smaller portions of dishes on their regular carte. Yes there might be some modification and simplification, but they are usually pretty similar in my experience. But this is not the case at a place like the French Laundry where the amount of architecture present in the small plates is probably more labor intensive then many of the highly constructed full size portions at many 3 star restaurants.

Well you need to go back with us. We have figured out the secret code . Seriously, the braised beef brisket which comes in a little iron tureen, handle and all, and which is braised in a light broth that is mildly spiced, what's not to like about that dish? It could have been served in a Mexican restaurant, a Japanese restaurant, a French restaurant, etc. all with the spicing routine tweaked for local custom. If it's top quality beef and it's prepared well, how can it be bad? Same with the tandoori oxtail which is wrapped in a Nan like bread. The oxtail was highly flavorful, gelatinous texture that was in balance, and it wasn't overly spiced. How could that be bad?

Fat Guy - Did you ever stop to think it's because in a degustation the portions are smaller because you are eating 6-8 (or possibly more) savory courses instead of just two? I don't mind when Foie gras is paired with something sweet. It's just that raisins and apples are redundant at this point. At Atelier on Tuesday night, they paired it with sliced endive. I have had Foie with braised endive in the past but never with raw. It was nice and the crunch of the endive and slight bitterness went well with the Foie. Basil also goes well with Foie and I've had a terrine where there is a thin layer of chopped basil in the middle of the terrine. The thing about it is, Foie is very subtle in many ways and it is easy to drown out with strong flavors. So when you pair it with something savory, it needs to be a very delicate preparation. But sweet things do not clash at all so you can pretty much slather the Foie in whatever it is. Stone - You mean I spent all that time pouring over their wine list for you and you BYO'd? Sheesh. As for the '94 Haut Brion, I haven't had the wine in a while but it probably didn't taste fruity because it is closed at the moment. That means the tannic acid in the wine is currently dominating the fruit in terms of flavor.

The food at Diwan is very good, but the food at the Bread Bar at Tabla the other night was much better. I was really surprised because my past experiences were okay, but not at the level of Tuesday nights meal. And there were seven of us and we had about fifteen different dishes so we got to taste a significant number of the dishes on the menu. Probably the best dish was the wrapped tandoori oxtail and the braised brisket of beef was delicious as well. Having beef on the menu adds a dimension to the experience that is much welcomed IMHO. I hadn't been in years but I am definitely going back soon to try the dishes I didn't get to try this time. Plus I guess I need to visit the main restaurant as well, a place I didn't like at all when it first opened. But based on Tuesday's meal, it appears they have made huge strides in mastering their original concept.

D'uh. A can of which is already on its way to Hensonville in order to ensure an authentic version.

Thanks Robert, but I was asking Cyn because I am going to be there in May as well.