Steve Plotnicki

You see I think that is a bad characterization of it. It isn't a matter of aptitudes, it's what various communities believe there is equity in. Jews have a family unity ethic and it was typical for that ethic to externalize itself through a family business. It kept a bond between family members and different generations in the family. And because of this group effort to keep the family equity alive (which started out as sweat equity and resulted in finanical equity for the participants,) an entire cottage industry, including special restaurants, was created to cater to that group of people. This ability to make money from within, which means you don't have to depend on attracting people from outside of your close knit group, has to have some effect on your cuisine. It should be a fairly simple business proposition to say that if Korean restaurants had to depend in large part on non-Asian customers, they would modify the cuisine to appeal to that group of people. Just like the old school Chinese restaurants did in my Mom's generation with things like Shrimp in Lobster Sauce. But if you are a large, self-contained community, you have no impetus to do that, unless you are specifically targeting other types of diners, which would be a place like Nobu or Tabla.

Well that is agreed. But that raises the following question. What does how a cuisine assimilates say about that cuisine in terms of complexity and sophistication (as a cuisine that is?) I mean isn't the fact that Jewish cuisine , which is predominantly comfort food, and which has been pretty much replaced by French bistro cuisine, say something about the limitations of the cuisine itself? And I know that's a fairly generalized statment but I think it's fair to say that for restaurant eating (and I mean a class of restaurant above a delicatessen), a dish like Poule au Pot has replaced Chicken in the Pot as the gold standard of chicken soup dishes. And that's just one example of many I could probably make.

A testament to their cuisine don't you think? Gordon - Then why don't you tell us a little about why Korean cuisine seems to not be promoted to non-Koreans the way other cuisines are? And possibly a few reasons why if that is the case? It certainly doesn't seem like Korean cuisine gets the same type of coverage in the NYC food press that say Indian food gets.

Jason - You told me I was wrong and then you told me I was right Let's try and get on the same page here because I think in large part we agree. I am not making any value judgement about the quality of Korean cuisine. I agree it's a complex cuisine. But when you say the following; That is the point I have been trying to make. But if you compare it to how Japanese cuisine has been assimilated, it isn't difficult to notice that in the U.S., there doesn't seem to be as large a percentage of the Japanese community that is a merchant class. There seems to be some correlation between how tight knit merchant class communities are and how fast their cuisine assimilates.

Well all you have said is that there is diversity among that group. I am sure everyone agrees with that and my original point wasn't to suggest otherwise. But aside from that, when you say the following; ratifies what I said. There is a large percentage of the Korean community that is a merchant class. That is very similar to the Jewish and Italian merchant classes that immigrated to the U.S. beginning in the 1890's through the late 1940's. My point is that the rate of assimilation as demonstrated by how quickly their food is absorbed in our daily cuisine, should happen at the same rate as other merchant classes, providing that people think the food is similarly delicious. Having said that, maybe you can tell me why I can think of no non-Korean restaurant, that has absorbed some Korean dishes into their menus? And it might exist and I might just not know about it. But something like Bulgoki is an obvious dish for someone to have Americanized, yet I don't see it on menus anywhere. I can say the same thing about those great Vietnamese Pork Chops. Meanwhile, Indian and Japanese cuisine seems to be moving much more quickly, and you see variations of their cuisines on all types of menus. Why do you think that is?

According to the CIA web page on Germany, it's 34% Protestant, 34% Catholic and the rest other. Here is a good link from Sally's Place about German cuisine. Considering that the Mosel is such a great wine region (is it part of the catholic south?) you would have thought they would have come up with a cuisine as fine as the wines are. At least in that region. German Cuisine Does this mean the reason isn't religious in nature?

Well you have a funny variation of this going on in France today with French kids not wanting to be chefs. A sort of non-ethnic version of the phenomenon. This is most apparant in family run bistros. It is unusual these days to see the children of a famous bistro owner take over the place. Yes it happens at Georges Blanc and Troisgros, but you can probably make a great living owning a place like that and it isn't expensive to live in Vonnas or Roane. But how much money can you make from owning a place like Allard?

I agree with that completely. But as it relates to food, it keeps their ethnic food alive and in plentiful supply. But once the children fight hard enough to break away, the support system for their ethnic restaurants diminishes to a grerat extent.

Well he might have been horrified about what it pays, but I am sure he would have been proud of your work.

That sounds like my family. . The thing about merchant classes is their businesses are very often family businesses. And it is typical for the parents to encourage the children to come into the business and take it over. So while you are making a joke, and it doesn't take 11 generations, it is a slower process. You grew up differently Fat Guy, in Manhattan with a highly educated and I am sure erudite father. And I'm sure it's the same for Jason growing up in Great Neck. I'm not sure you know what it is like to come from a family where your parents don't want to send you to the best schools possible, both lower and upper schools, because they fear you will grow too far apart from them. But in the real world, what I am describing is a huge issue for people and it affects them every day. And I know it sounds like a disconnect between this issue and food, but it's not. It is all wrapped up together. Maybe having grown up with it I see it in a certain way, and clearly. But it's all around you too. There aren't any kosher deli's anymore because we all assimilated. In fact, I would say my own usage of kosher deli foods is not related to my upbringing anymore. Not that I don't feel a special cultural connection to it, but I use it just like I use any other ethnic cuisine. And you know what, I think that's a good thing. It's something that all immigrant groups that come to America should aspire to. It would have been nice if Jewish cuisine was sophisticated enough that there was a Jewish version of Tabla or Nobu. But I guess the most sophisticated aspects of the cuisine are best expressed in French cuisine, as well as few other western European cuisines.

I don't. I have been looking for some but I don't even know where to begin to look. It's Tony's comment about Protestantism that I am following up on.

Gee did I say there were no Koreans that have white coller jobs? I don't think so. I said that a large part of the Korean community seem to be merchants and I analogized their pace of assimilation to Jews and Italians who were also merchants. But you know what, not every Jew or Italian was a merchant either. Some were doctors and lawyers and they assimilated at a different pace then the merchants did. My point was that merchant classes, regardless of where they come from, in my experience, assimilate more slowly then people in white collar jobs. But since you raised it, people who live in the suburbs, like Northern New Jersey, assimilate more slowly then people who live in the city. That's because you can segregate yourself into little comunities in thd suburbs in a way that you can't do in the city. . Lissome - I have no idea what you are talking about.

I agree that it's a theme restaurant, but it also happens to be a deli. The Chicken in the Pot tasted pretty authentic to me. There used to be three pickle places on the lower east side. How many are there now? There used to be Teitelbaum's Bakery and the chese place next door. Where are they? How about the dairy restaurants? There were at least four, none left. I can't speak for Koreans. They seem to be largely merchants which means they will probably assimilate at the same rate that Jews and Italians did. Japanese and Indians have a large white collar segment to their populations, and as such, a more involved cuisine. They will assimilate more quickly then people from a merchant class. And people from the Caribbean are subject to more prejudice then other immigrants so it's an even slower process for them.

Fat Guy - I half agree with this. With ADNY, it's really a two step process and price is secondary. What makes ADNY so controversial is the fact that it seems so ordinary to people (and I have italicized because I do not want to argue whether it is ordinary or not, just what many people come away with.) When you add the greatly increased cost, then it begins to revolve around other issues like arrogance. But I assure you if most people left feeling that the meal was more delciious then other restaurants, no one would think that Ducasse was arrogant etc. Otherwise I agree with Lesley. Different restaurants take a different number of vivists until you understand them. Steakhouses can usually be mastered in one vists. For a place like Trio I think you need to go three or four times. There is so much to take in.

Glyn - Well we are hung up in a different time period. Where do we find the CoE's position on somatic pleasure during Victorian times and the era that preceded it? Stef - Isn't this just a secular way of stating the same thing? What culture would develop a culture of "the body" if it didn't have foods and wines that were sensual? Is Protestantism a reaction to people being overly sensual, or is it an answer to why my potatoes don't taste as good as that other guys? Does this mean the British are bad lovers?

People who came to the U.S. for a better life. That they.

Very few people never do. And the ones who don't get marginalized. Little Italy is now mostly Chinese. And the Jewish part of the lower east side has shrunk to a couple of blocks. When I grew up in Queens, every neighborhood had a kosher deli and a Southern Italian restaurant featuring red sauce. Now they are both quite difficult to find. In fact on the upper west side of Manhattan, the greatest Jewish stronghold outside of the Warsaw ghetto, they had to invent Artie's Deli so the neighborhood can have a deli. If we were to be honest about what ethnic cuisine is (in this country,) it is the food that immigrants and their children eat. That they can't cook it exactly like they did in the old country is an important point, but I'm not sure it's the determinative one. I think the important point is that by the time you get to grandchildren and great grandchildren, much of the cuisine doesn't exist anymore because the market for it has shrunk so drastically. The thing is, depending on how good the cuisine was, it gets incorporated into what we eat everyday, whether they like it or not. Go to any Greek diner in Queens and they have an entire range of Jewish style delicatessen sandwiches. And they also will have spaghetti and meatballs or ravioli on the menu. That is how the cuisine was assimilated. But better cuisines, and I don't use that phrase casually, assimilate at a higher level. I would argue, there is something more sophisticated about Indian and Japanese cuisine that is allowing them to enter the market at a higher level then Jewish cuisine or Southern Italian cuisine could ever attain. So I believe, that the people who come here get swallowed up in the process of assimilation. We assimilate them whether they want to or not. Unless they go shut themselves off in their own community like the Hassidic Jews, it isn't a matter of what they want to give, it's a matter of what we all decide to take from them and make our own. And they are well paid for it in return (monetarily I mean.) Something that isn't usually possible in their own country. That's exactly why they come here.

Try this one on Puritans If I read that correctly, it says that the economic reason they left England is because they couldn't farm the land as a result of enclosure. But then it also syas that Puritansim was based on Calvinism. So there is a fissure somewhere. I tried to Google the enclosure laws and the church of England and all I could find was that at first the clergy were against them. But that doesn't make sense since the King is the head of the Church? Was the King against the enclosure laws?

Actually I was reacting more to Suzanne's post then yours. So there. And I'll raise you one . I'm not going to touch this one with a 100 foot pole.

Why is it that what I said is taken to mean, no make that, it has to be true for each and every example of words uttered by a Protestant Reverand? Tony said the following, Is it not true? I just Googles our buddy Reverand Smith and it seems he was a pretty liberal fellow Reverand Smith

That's a good start. I've never heard of the Cavollotto. And what are the aging windows for these wines. Same as the big boys? Shorter, longer?

I wish more people posted stuff like that. In all the years I've been following food, I don't think I ever heard anyone tell me that they ate well in Amsterdam outside of herring stands and rijstaafel. In fact they typically claim the food is inedible. Still, you have to prove to people like CDH that the food isn't any good. Or hear excuses for it like they have an inferior sense of smell. But this time was the first time I heard the one about the women working and not being cooks.

But wines for short term drinking (four to seven years or less,) are much less demanding about storage. Having a wine age in 4 years instead of five because your cellar temerature is at 65 instead of 60 will not make that big a difference to the outcome. But for collectible and auctionable wines, over 25 years of cellaring time, five years of early maturation makes a huge difference. And my point about poor home storage wasn't to say that the importers didn't damage many wines. But the collectors damaged them even further, in fact much worse in many instances.

Speaking of that, what traditionally styled Barolos do you like outside of the big boys?

Now there's a plausible theory.