Steve Plotnicki

I think that Tabla is considered less ethnic then Diwan is. Just like Patria is less ethnic then Havana Chelsea is.

I really think it is simpler then that. If you start with my WASP premise, and then consider that people who typically immigrated to America were poor and Catholic, it was easy to identify all cuisines coming from poor immigrants as ethnic cuisine. The French were exempt because they exported a rather upscale cuisine. Do you think of Swedish cuisine as being ethnic? Norwegian? I don't. How about cuisines like Jamaican or other Caribbean cuisines? Not ethnic unless they are Hispanic, then they are considered ethnic. Canadian cuisine isn't ethnic either. But Mexican is. Do we see a pattern here?

Your post is truly excellent. And I don't have any real answers for you. But I can add the following. British cuisine, nor British people are considered ethnic. And I think that is a clue. "Ethnic" probably started as meaning not white anglo-saxon protestant.

I've had Rendevous ribs flown into NYC. They are dry yes. But they were pretty good. But one of the problems is that MSG is a big part of their spice rub. If that bothers you (it bothers me because I can't digest the glutonate), you should look elsewhere for ribs.

Suvir - A number of Indian restaurants in NYC have told me when I have inquired about wheat free breads, that in India they make a bread from gram flour. What is this bread called and how do they make it? I have never seen anyone in the U.S. or even London offer it.

Green label with black writing on it that looks like handwriting. I think it's too soon for your '97's and '98's. But I'd try the '97 in another few years. Haven't had the valpolicellos. I'm not a huge Quintarelli fan but I have enjoyed the Ca del Merlo in the past.

Hey I was there last night as well. I was sitting at the very first table by the entrance. I got there around 7:15 I believe and we had to wait about 5 minutes for a table. The food was great as usual and I had what was left of my steak for lunch today. And their coquille st. jacques appetizer, which was really sea scallops with the cheese and cream from the potato gratin, was super.

No BYO. Crappy wine list and crappy house wine.

I never like talking about food in the context of who eats it. Let's presume the nastiest most pretentious people in the world liked a place or a cuisine, does that make it taste any better or not? Of course not. So that is sort of a non-starter. But I have a question. A controversial one, which is not surprising coming from me but, does anyone else find that a problem with much of the cuisine in the boroughs is that it is greasy? I mean I grew up in the boroughs and did quite a lot of eating there until I moved into Manhattan in 1987. And even now that I live in MH, I still go out to the boroughs all of the time to eat. And maybe it's my advanced age but, I find the quality of much of the food to be below what I would like and I often find that it ends up in greasy food. That is even true at Don Pepe's which is probably my single favorite ethnic restaurant in the city. You leave there and the grease is oozing out of your pores. And of course I am generalizing and this doesn't cover every place. If you eat at Sweet 'n Tart in Flushing this won't happen. Even at the Shabu Shabu place next door it won't happen. But in general, I find this to be the case much more often then not. I wish it wasn't so. I wish many of the places put in just a but more effort to reduce the grease quotient. Does anyone else have this issue? And it also isn't to say that sometimes greasy isn't great. It is. It's just that I notice it more often, and it bothers me much more then it used to.

All agreed Eddie. But I think the underlying question goes beyond mere quality to the following. I can go to Le Dome in Paris and have a Sole Meuniere where both the fish, as well as the butter and salt used in the dish, come from very specific locations in Normandy and Brittany. And the entire success of this particular preparation is dependant on the unique qualitites of those ingredients. We can extrapolate this example out and see that much of French cuisine is based on this concept. Now Chinese cuisine, from my vantage point, seems to lack this level of specificity in terms of ingredients. Now is this something that has just been missed by Chinese restauranteurs, or is Chinese technique really paramount to the equation in a way where this type of emphasis would end up detracting from the result? Because when you say that J-G is going to use Niman Ranch pork, well that might be an improvement that could detract from the end result because as Ruth said (or maybe it was you,) it's the technique people are buying and the best pork is the one that best compliments the technique. Which would be backwards from my Le Dome example where the chef is trying to apply a technique that tries to express the unique qualities of the ingredients. Does this make sense?

Vedat - Thanks so much. I'm looking forward to the next installment.

Greece is Ottoman but it is also Italian and Slavic. Where does the boat from Greece go? So it isn't pure Ottoman in the way some other cuisines are.

Yes but I don't spend time reading Ann Coulter's books or logging into her website if she has one. That's because I don't need the nastiness along with the politics. If I want to read about right wing politics, I can get that without the vitriol and animosity that reeks from her words.

Because she's good for business. Why do you think eGullet chooses the writers they choose? They percieve they are good for business.

But I am not understanding what your point is then? Why are you picking on Greece then. Why not Uzbekistan? Their cuisine is almost identical to Turkish. I guess what differentiates Greece in that while it is similar to Turkish cuisine, it also shares certain traits with Italian Adriatic cuisine. It has a Mediterranean aspect to it that is missing from Turkish cuisine.

Did I say Frenching? I am talking about the bones being cut in a straight line and the end of the bones being chopped off so it fits on the plate properlly. I am not talking about stripping the meat off the bones like they do in Frenching. I am also talking about the thickness of the chops. Chops that are a single rib thick marinate well, because they are not too thick, and they cook evenly. They also sear on the outside in a way where the marinade cooks off completely (leaving it with the great taste of the marinade and not the liquid) but stay rare in the middle. That isn't what happens with these chops. They are thick and unruly and they are messy to eat and somewhat unevenly cooked as a result. But like I said, and so did Stone, they are delicious chops. But if you want perfect tandoori chops, go with Tony Finch & Faroe (my god, I didn't realize until now that her name is Faroe Finch, that's like a character from Dickens,) to New Tayeb. Even though the quality of the meat is better at Diwan, they turn out a better quality product because they have the proportions of it all down pat.

Hmmm, because there is too much to distinguish them. Yes they are similar, but they are no more the same than Turkish and Lebanese cuisines being the same. Do they use paprika in Greek cuisine? I know they use cinammon in their tomato sauce. But is that something they picked up from the Turkish?

Yes, it is Schrambling's fault. Is that what you are saying? She caused this? Please explain.

They are too messy to eat with your hands. And since they are irregularly shaped, it makes it hard to eat that way.

But you have two different definitions of cuisine going on here. There is the use of the word to describe the food identified with a nationality. Then there is the use of the word to describe a technique identified with a specific cooking technique. For example, The French Laundry and Gordon Ramsey are French restaurants because of the technique they employ. But not every dish they serve is something that would have to originate in France. Still they are considered French.

Or is that backwards? Is Turkish cuisine a refined version of the rustic cuisines of the Ottoman Empire? I know we have had these conversations before but, a simple roasting of a leg of lamb served with natural jus had to come before someone figured out you can strain and thicken the jus to make gravy. To me, add enough technique and you come away with a distinct cuisine.

No I am saying that chopping technique is the kind of thing that could have been a way for the upper classes to draw a distinction between themselves and the lower classes. Who made the koftes with the best texture, with the seasonings balanced evenly and spread thoughout the mixture. Who could afford the best spices. In cooking, time and ingredients are money (where did I hear that before,) and the difference between roasting chunks of lamb with chunks of potatoes and possibly a tomato (Greek), and making a more delicate prepraration where thin slices of lamb are layered with thin slices of potatoes and other vegetables (Turkey,) is a function of time and money. It also has to be driven by, and this will sound familiar from various other threads we've argued, a class of people who think of themselve as more refined and see the food as a reflection of their place in life. Otherwise what would be the motivation for anyone to improve basic peasant dishes? As for humus in Greece, that isn't really my question. You want to distinguish yourself from the masses. As for hummus, you can get hummus everywhere now. It's almost like pizza. What I was commenting on was hummus and other dips that you would regularly find on Turkish menus not being on the menu at the Greek restaurants I frequent.

You can't cultivate brett that I know of. You just don't clean your barrels (yuck) and hope it forms. And if you do have it, it's almost impossible to control. Madame Bize Leroy seems to have a handle on how to impart a slight dose of it in her wines. Maybe she has a few brett infected barrels that she uses. So in that instance I guess you would be correct. But that is different from having your cellar infected with brett. Beaucastel reportedly had to have their entire cellar cleaned after the 1988 vintage because the wine was too bretty. Now the wines are squeaky clean tasting. Much better by the way if you ask me.

Well I started by saying I wish I had access to my cookbooks which I don't. Because the thing to do is to compare the recipes. Still, what you will find is something on the road I started going down because like it or not, that's what you get in the restaurants. Neither cuisine is particularly deep IMHO. Certainly nothing like the regionality you get in Italy or France. Just start with the simple premise that lamb is almost the only meat you see served. In Greece I know it to be served roasted, or in chunks for doner kebabs, or ground for gyros. But I don't know it to be chopped and formed around a skewer to make kofte kebab. True or false? If false, that's a big start as that type of technique is what we are looking for to distinguish a class of people who could afford to have that service peformed for them. Like Indian families had chefs who had their own curry recipes. Also, is there humus in Greek cuisine? It's not something available in the restaurants here. In fact the range of dips and salads from Greece is quite small (here.) Nowhere as extensive as Turkey which has a list that is almost as extensive as the list would be in a Lebanese restaurant. And when it comes down to it, isn't that going to be the difference. Greek cuisine will be a regional cuisine, and Turkish cuisine will be pan-regional because it incorporated various dishes, ingredients and techniques from other parts of the Ottoman Empire.

They would be much more enjoyable to eat if they were trimmed better, and there wasn't so much excess marinade on them after they were cooked.