Steve Plotnicki

Canned pineapple cubes.

You are just imposing a morality where you are willing to take for granted that the restaurant is on the side of the angels. And in this instance, all we asked for is if they could prepare tasting size portions because we wanted to taste a substantial number of the dishes. We didn't ask for anything that was off menu. And the way it went down, and the result we got, just goes to show that they do accord VIP status for certain people and how easy it would have been for them to comply with my request to begin with. But since they didn't know me/us, they both didn't offer it to me out of hand, or were gracious enough to comply with my request for it. But when they heard I might actually be a VIP, they changed their tune. In fact I think that is pretty shitty on their part, holding out special treatment for who they percieve to be VIP's, and not offering it to people who seem to care about the food. Now who looks like the manipulative one? To add to Fat Guy's good posts from before, most restaurants are holding something back from their customers. I bet you even Congee Village is holding something back. And whatever you do to get them to give it to you, providing you are polite, it's okay. No morality involved in it at all.

Liz - Gee that doesn't sound pretentious, obnoxious, or anything else to me. Though it obviosuly sounds that way to some people around here. Elyse - Cool your jets.

Well the only times I can remember it being refused was at Fresh when it first opened. But when we told them the meal was going to be written up somewhere, they changed their policy for us. The other time was at Babbo, where we chalked it up to a bad server. But the real answer to your question, is that like any other service interaction you have with a restaurant, they are either gracious in the way they tell you or they aren't. How it went down at Babbo, or how Robert Shonfeld described it went down at L'Impero, are the bad ways it happens, where the waitstaff doesn't handle it tactfully. But being told by your server that he/she appreciates the request but it just isn't possible for whatever reason they give, puts a different face on it don't you think? Sometimes for me, when the issue is my wheat sensitivity, and the server isn't getting it, I get very frustrated with them. But ulitmately that becomes an issue of do they care whether my meal is good or not. Some servers when they hear my issue, go on their own volition to speak with a chef or manager and come back with a list of dishes I can eat. Others swear to me that a dish is wheat free only for me to find that it appears at my place setting "lightly breaded" or "dusted in flour." I don't know about you but, I'm from the school that says the servers should understand any question you ask them. And if they don't, they should find someone who does. Even Mario Batalli if they have to. And I'm sure that you are the same as me, and that any answer is okay providing they have evaluated your request in earnest and have given you their best answer possible. edited in after If you want to know the difference between a good server and a bad one, ask my wife how many times she has had to eat her dinner alone because the server didn't ask the chef about my entree having wheat in it? And then they had to take mine away, and come back 15 minutes later with a new dish where I now have to eat alone. If I told you that has happened to us at least 3 dozen times I wouldn't be exaggerating. How easy would it have been to have asked about it?

Suzanne - But I don't care if they like doing it or not. I don't eat at their restaurants to make them happy. They are supposed to be making me happy. And they can say no if they don't want to do it. And in reality they curse about a lot of things, including Mario Batalli cursing me for sending back cold lamb chops. The fact of the matter is I couldn't care less what they curse about but for some reason you do. All I want is the best my money can buy. In fact I want that for everyone who goes out to eat. We all deserve it and more often then not restaurants do not deliver the quality they are supposed to deliver. And if the chefs want to curse me about it for asking for it, whether it is on or off menu, too damn bad. Somebody asked, I don't remember who, what happens when they turn your request down. Well the answer is you order from the menu. What do you think happens, you start a revolution?

Holly - Well since some restaurants hold things back from the menu, and some don't, how would you know until you asked? So nobody is insinuating anything. All people want to know is what is available that isn't on the menu. And considering how many times it turns out to be something really substantial, especially when it comes to wine lists, it is in your best interest to ask that question. Wilfrid - Correct. The server didn't understand what we were asking. Nor did she try to reallly ascertain what we were asking. Whether it would have turned out differently if she enlisted the help of a manager (not that he would necessarily know,) or had the type of relationship where she could go ask Batalli, who knows. The point was that she made us feel uncomfortable for asking. So we didn't take it to the next level. What we would have liked her to do is to assume that she was the one who was missing information, which in reality was the case. But sometimes that's the way it goes. Look at Cabby and her FL reservation 2 weekkends ago. The first reservationist told her she needed to find a second diner to secure. But the second reservationist told her one person is okay. Go figure.

Except a large part of this thread is devoted to the motivation of people who do it. Now that is personal. So I restate, how do people who do not do it know the motivation of people who do? Now I don't know where you worked, or who the chef was there, or what the routine was in that kitchen. But I can tell you that since the x-mas holidays, I asked for some variation of off menu, or special menu, and was accomodated at the following places; Citronelle Morimoto Blue Hill Union Pacific Craft It's really not a big deal. And I promise you, you will eat better for the asking. That is the only thing that is important. To eat better. Politics, money, class, elitism, they are all busllshit topics that people interpose that prevent us from discussing the real issue. How good was the food and when you asked for off menu items, or special menus, did the food improve somehow?

Here is a review of mine from last year. Club Gascon It was my only visit but I highgly recommend it. I think it was one of the more exciting new places I ate at last year.

Why oh why do the people who do not ask for off menu items in restaurants think that they know how anyone reacts to the request? How would they know? It's just crazy. Not only do they not know, but not feeling that way about it themselves, why do they feel secure enough in their opinions to pass judgement on the motivations of the people who do ask for it? Somebody please tell me in which way other then pure conjecture, how Ron, Martin, Tommy, Suzanne or Maggie know what motivates people to ask for it, and how they know how the restaurants react to it when actually asked? Because the only evidence I see from the people who do ask, is that what they are interested in is having the best possible meal, and most restaurants are happy to accomodate them. But if somebody has evidence to the contrary, that is not pure conjecture, please put it forth.

It has nothing to do with special treatment. It has to do with a level of a restaurant's cuisine that is not available on the menu. It's the difference between buying a suit off the rack and having one custom made. A custom made suit fits better because it is made especially to suit you. That makes it more enjoyable. This is the same concept. A restaurant prepares a meal to suit your needs and desires. It doesn't have to cost more money. And I don't see how anyone is doing anything wrong, obnoxious or pretentious, merely by asking if that service is available? In fact in most places one would think to ask for it, it usually happens to be available. That is because the types of customers who frequent those places are used to getting that level of service elsewhere.

I hope I haven't said this and I apologize if I had. What I thought I did say was that "people who have the money are entitled to the best they can afford." Meaning nobody should be able to tell you how to spend your money if you aren't hurting anyone by doing it.

Fat Guy - Sorry about this tangent. We went down this path back at Martin Rosen's post which called asking for off menu items "pretentious," among other things. Maybe he could withdraw the comment because of the inherent personal value judgment implied in that allegation. Then maybe we can get back to the original question which was, does it make a difference or not and did the WSJ guys go about it the wrong way?

I rest my case. Wilfrid - You know I was admiring that sport coat of yours from the other evening. I went to buy one just like it but it turns out they don't make them anymore. So I went to visit the Director of Equality, and he ordained that you have to share it with me. He suggested the following system. We each get to wear it on every second day, with tailoring to suit us occuring on the in-between days. I thought it was a clever suggestion. What do you think?

Elyse - Well it is to Suzanne. Read her comment about Americans with big wads of money. What she doesn't realize, is that it isn't motivated by money. It is motivated by people wanting to enjoy themselves at a certain level. That they might have to pay more for it is not relevant to the exercise. They would be happy paying less if it got them the quality meal they wanted.

You can't go off-menu at Chez Panisse. It is the egalitarian's dream. They only offer one menu per night. You couldn't go off of it if you wanted to. Wilfrid - Good work. And to think you could have ended up with salmon instead.

Suzanne - You are just vicariously arguing politics with me through the dining experience. I believe in a level of individualism in this instance that you don't seem to believe in. You believe in egalitarianism, something I believe in quite often, but not in the context of luxury goods. In fact I think it's a gross mistake to apply that concept to luxury goods, which is what fine dining is. When I go to the type of restaurant I have described, I would like to have an experience that suits my needs. Sometimes that experience can be the exact same experience that everyone else is having, and sometimes the same exact experience that everyone else is having doesn't satisfy me so I would like something better. It really doesn't matter to me which one it is, as long as it reaches my threshold level of satisfaction. But what I am not willing to do is to compromise standards in this situation for this particluar egalitarian principal. Try something else out on me. Affirmative action, women's rights, you will see I agree with you most of the time. But at the same time I believe that the guy with the most money is entitled to drink that last bottle of 1947 Petrus that the sommelier has been hiding for a special customer. And I also believe he should ask for it if he wants it and doesn't see it. It's his entitlement for being able to afford it. And if his ability to do that means I don't get to drink any, too bad for me. I should work harder and make more money so I can afford it too. But at the same time, it also means that I want to maximize what I can afford to buy. And it just so happens that asking for off-menu items is a good way to do that. And why you resent that, or criticize anybody for doing that deosn't make any sense to me? It has absolutely zero impact on you. Unless, you are interested in preventing people from enjoying their hard earned money.

The impact (if any) on a restaurant's economics of losing (assuming that is the case) the business of BYO drinkers depends, among other things, on whether the restaurant has other clients who wuld spend at least as much as the BYO drinkers. If a restaurant like French Laundry were to prohibit BYO instead of charging $50 corkage, I doubt that their seats would not be filled and I doubt that the client composition in general would experience a marked change. That's right. The person who takes the table instead of a BYOer might drink tap water or tea. Also, your analysis doesn't take into account that BYO diners quite often order extensive tasting menus, and splurge on additions to the regular menu which cause upcharges. So all in all, unless you can show me that a restaurant really makes a significant amount of money from not allowing BYO, I am not likely to believe that they have a reason for disallowing it other then their visceral reaction to the concept. And indeed, top level restauranteurs like Danny Meyer and Drew Nierporent among many others, allow it And I don't consider them to be the type of people who are looking to lose money. And as far as PR goes, among wine lovers, restaurants that do not allow BYO, or who charge excessive corkage fees, typically get trashed and ridiculed.. Just read some of the wine boards and you will see just how badly. The best answer I have ever heard any restauranteur give on this topic goes as follows. BYO customers make up such a small percentage of their business, that allowing it has no effect. And it isn't that you make no money off of them, you make the money from the meal they order and the corkage they spend. In reality, the BYO customer is just like any other customer who has a special request, need or desire. You are either willing to be flexible and accomodate them or you aren't.

Elyse - You are my hero.

I hate to be repetitive but, how did this issue get turned around from what restaurants do and should offer to what is an appropriate way for diners to make this request? The people who do not partake in this custom, for whatever reason, seem to need to imply that people ask for this type of service in a way that is obnoxious, or are treating staff in restaurants like servants etc. What does this issue have to do with the diner? It has to do with whether restaurants offers this service or not. People are rude in a multitude of situations and I don't see anyone listing those situations. Why here? Why are people inisisting that an inference of rudeness be drawn to describe people who ask about off-menu items? Because aside from my experience at Babbo, I find that the request is well recieved. And we don't have to go any further then our own near and dear Christopher who when he was a Captain at Gramercy organized a number of special menus, based around nearly a dozen bottles of wine we brought in, at the spur of the moment. We asked, and he did it. If he couldn't, he would have said no. There really isn't amy more to it then that. But where does making that request deserve to be charactered as doing something wrong?

Suzanne - Two things, most of the better restaurants in the world are more then happy to do this for you. That's the business they think they are in. And I'm glad they think that way because I get to eat better as a result. And I'm glad you aren't running one of those restaurants because we would all eat worse for it. In fact come to think of it, that might be the exact reason you don't run one of those restaurants. The second thing is, all you have done is to apply egalitarianism to the situation. I'm not really interested in that. My dining experience, and capabilities, are not the same as every other diner in the restaurant. I would like a meal that is good enough to satisfy my level of expertise which is not the same as diners who don't do it on a regular basis. And sometimes a restaurant has what will make me happy on it's printed menu and wine list and sometimes it doesn't. Quite often, I find that restaurants are hiding little gems for special customers. Because how would I have ever gotten to taste the magical 1958 Marquis de Riscal Rioja if I didn't stand firm with the sommelier on his giving me the reserve list, which he tried desperately not to give me? Fortunately a wine dealer friend of mine told me about it. This is just one example of why you need to ask. And why asking isn't doing anything wrong.

But this whole notion of compromising others that is being thrown out as a reason to not do it is a red herring. And for the life of me, I do not understand the motivation to articulate it that way. If you ask, and they don't do it, the exchange is over. Nobody has been put out to do anything except answer your question. It's just one of the multitude of questions you might ask where the answer is no, like their not having a particular brand of vodka you would like to drink. How is this any different? And if they do perform the service, people aren't being put out either. So I fail to see the repetitive need to charcterize the request as something the diner is doing that is wrong. It's just a very simple question that asks if the restaurant offers a way to dine that isn't printed on the menu. When I was in Milan last month and had dinner at Aimo e Nadia, at the end of the meal the sommelier disclosed to us that he had a treasure trove of older vintages of Barolos and Barabarescos that weren't on the list. Gajas going back to the mid 50's etc. And when he went down to the cellar to get them to show them to us because he was proud of their condition, we looked at each other and asked why he didn't tell us that before the meal. That is just one situation where asking would have changed the outcome of our meal.

Robert S. is right. If you know him and his palate, you can read his review as being a positive one. But ultimately disappointing, even frustrating, on a personal level.

Martin - It is wrong for you to ascribe motives that ultimately criticize those who partake in this custom. In fact, I can only conclude based on your need to make personal comments, by calling or implying that people are egotistical, pretentious etc., that you do not share the same desire we share. Which is simply to eat well. All we want to do is to get the best possible meal. And if you were as interested in fine dining as we are, you could never say any of that because you would then be talking abut yourself. So if you want to call me anything, call me a glutton. You can even call me a pig. But don't dare say that the request is related to my psyche. It's related to my stomach. The reason one feels comfortable asking a restaurant to provide this service is because a restaurant is a service establishment. And by asking for something off-menu, or to be prepared especially for you, all you are doing is requesting a certain level of service that might not be apparant on the face of the menu. Some establishments are prepared to go that few extra yards, some aren't. I do agree with you that whether a restaurant will do it or not is a function of how the kitchen, and their administrative system that tracks orders is set up. But if we follow your reasoning as to why people shouldn't ask for it, it assumes that each and every service that an establishment can offer is printed on the menu. Why do you assume that? And what is wrong with my assuming otherwise? History shows that at a certain level of establishment, more often then not, they offer a level of service that is not printed on the menu. It only takes but one small, and exceptionally delicious story of a dish, to make the point that not only is there nothing wrong with asking for off-menu items, it is in the diner's benefit to do so. In September 1994, six of us were dining at La Palme d'Or in Cannes to celebrate my wife's birthday. We were trying to parse together a tasting menu of about 5 courses for the table. The women at the table were happy with a main course that was printed on the menu, but the men couldn't find anything they wanted to eat. Back in those days, Jacques Cattenosi (sp?) was the Maitre' d there (he was so fabulous but left in about 1996 to run the Ritz London dining room. I wonder if he is still there) and he was taking our order and when he got to the main course, I explained that we were having trouble with the menu. So he thought about it for a moment, and about ten seconds later he said, I can offer you some fresh veal filets with some black summer truffle in a sauce flavored with the truffles. Bingo. We'll take three of those. Well to this day we speak of that dish as one of the great dishes we ever ate in a high end restaurant. And who knows why Veal Filet, or summer truffles, wasn't listed on the menu? Maybe it was for the staff dinner, maybe for the next days menu or specials, maybe the chef was going to serve it at his Tante Paulette's Anniversaire? It doesn't make a difference. We only wanted to eat something delicious. We didn't want to prove we were high roller Americans dropping their big wad on the Croisette.

Mogsob - I am going to take that recommendation and try L'Impero.

Well let me ask an almost existential question. What is the real difference between on the menu and off the menu? Is it that someone wrote it down or sent it to the printer's? If they have the ingredients, and they know how to prepare it, is there a difference?