Steve Plotnicki

Actually, there are many different issues bundled into my interaction with the sommelier. Does he hold the reserve list back for regulars, or is it for extra special customers? And if it's for special customers, does he allocate places on that list by their knowledge about wine or by how much money they are likely to spend? But rest assured, had a friend of mine not been there 2 years earlier, I would have never known and it wouldn't have been offered. There is actually a good thread in here somewhere. I can hear Fat Guy saying somebody should start a thread about this. What we have been arguing here is the following. One side of the argument says that the customer base for a restaurant is a single market. That everybody gets lumped together into that market. That is the Basildog approach. But the other side of the argument says that no, a restaurant's clientele is actually comprised of a number of different markets that are overlapping, and you have to have a different scheme for dealing with each and every market you have to deal with. I think if we got into the issue on that level (and I'm not the one who wants to start that thread,) we would delve much further into this issue and many of the morality based arguments would fall to the wayside.

Well now that Suzanne brings it up, sometimes you ask politely and they refuse. And in those instances I have found that sometimes I have had to demand it. Is there anything wrong with that? When I was at Arzak and they gave me the wine list with all young wines on it, I had to demand that the sommelier give me the reserve list with the old wines on it. And by the way, the wine I was demanding cost $45 a bottle. Not $4500, $45. And they were holding it back from me! But again, can we stop characterizing how a diner asks for it. That really isn't the point of article or the exercise here. What is wrong with taking whatever steps are necessary in getting what you want?

Wilfrid is saying that people order special meals in advance for various occassions all of the time. What is so different about doing it at the meal itself? And I think we are going a little overboard in the way we are using the term VIP. That's just what restaurants call it. Nobody actually thinks they are an important person. And like Fat Guy said yesterday. There are all different versions of VIP. From Blue Heron's uncle to people restaurants actually think are important customers.

Dagueneau makes Pouilly Fume. And you like that stuff? I would think it is too modern for you. I used to own some but it aged so poorly that I dumped it.

Cabby - I asked for reasons why people should not do it.

Please let's forget the labels and lets let go of the value judgements. Here it is as simply put as I know how. What is the argument against a diner taking steps to ensure that he/she will get the best possible meal and/or service that is available at a restaurant?

Well let me see if I can ask it in the simplest possible way so I can avoid the snide comments. If asking for VIP treatment means that you get better food and service, why isn't everyone willing to do it? Isn't the point of going to a restaurant to get the best possible meal? Or do people prefer the average meal over the best possible meal? I'm having an extremely hard time understanding the motivation for making that choice because it seems to contradict the reason we go to a restaurant in the first place.

I never took you as the horn button type.

But this would only be the case if we were talking about a bespoke tailor where custom tailoring was apparant. But for example, if you were to go into Bergdorff and found a hand-tailored cashmere suit from Naples that you like, there is no sign or advertisement anywhere in the store that they can order it for you directly from the manufacturer, in either any size you like that would be off the rack, or custom tailored. They can even take the same fabric and make a different model suit for you. But you can't tell from looking at the price tag and there is no signs anywhere saying that. Yet it is possible to do that with almost every suit on the 2nd floor. Now you might get a good salesperson who offers it, or you might not. In fact you might not see a salesperson at all and you might just leave without ever knowing. The point is, there are all kinds of services available which are not apparant, both in restaurants and in other kinds of shops that cater to a certain type of consumer. And to get that service you have to inquire about it. SuzanneF - I accept everyone's way of doing it. And I accept what everyone wants. What I do find odd is that people place more importance on non-food related items then they do on the food. This whole notion of "seeing what everyone else gets," why would anyone want to see what that is if it means it lowers the quality of your meal? If you want to view things from the standpoint of a professionals and see how they handle certain situations, well I can understand that. But you are speaking about the motives of a professional and to be honest, I couldn't give two hoots how they handle it. I just want the best possible meal available. But it's that not everybody here wants that, and I find that curious.

If this was true, VIP treatment wouldn't exist and VIP's wouldn't be such a big part of the business. But they are so obviously that isn't a large factor. I don't know what percentage VIP's make up of annual business, but I would love to have a Danny Meyer type tell us. I think that the people here would be very surprised when they heard the percentage. In fact I think the percentage is so high, that many restaurants you know and love would go out of business without those types of customers. But I still can't get past the following. To disassociate yourself from the VIP process, or from any process that helps you from get the best possible meal, it means you will probably eat less well then others. Yet everyone states that they go to restaurants to eat well. A restaurant should be about getting the best possible food. Why are people willing to compromise that standard for a chance to get the same food as, actually, the perception they are getting the same food as everyone else. Why do people need to express non-gastronomic principals at a restaurant in a manner that lowers the quality of what they eat?

This is up there with 7 Minute Abs. Basildog - Well all you are saying is that your decision isn't based on business judgement, it is based on your personal sense of right and wrong. And I am not criticizing it. But at the types of restaurants we are describing in this thread, with huge overheads and high rent to pay, where they are serving 200 diners a night, and they have a high percentage of VIP customers, good business judgement is paramount. And many of the restaurants we are talking about, would go out of business if they adopted your business model.

But I asked a harder question then that. I said how would you handle it if 25% of your customers were regulars who ate at a late hour and they expected the daily special to be available for their dinner? And not having it available made them stop coming on a regular basis? Wouldn't you do something differently? Would you order more of it? Or when they reserved would you tell them the daily specials on the phone to see if they wanted to reserve it? Is first come, first serve, something that is only available to people who are physically in the restaurant? Or is on the telephone sufficient to get you a crack at it?

So what would you do, if you had a regular customer who dropped a pretty big sum of money at your restaurant, and who also dined towards the end of the evening. Sometimes the daily special would last until the hour he dined, sometimes it wouldn't. But you knew this person liked the daily specials. Would you hold a serving back for him? And if your answer is no, what if he stopped coming as regularly because you wouldn't? Or what if you had five customers like that? Or how about if 25% of your customers were like that? Would you change your methods if you knew it was going to cost you the business?

Or how about if we ask the following question. Why do people think that what a restaurant prints on its menu is a complete list of everything they have to offer? I mean we are brought up to believe that, but in reality it turns out that in many instances it isn't true. Why do we have such a big investment in that concept?

This thread, is being boiled down to a single issue. Do you believe in VIP's or not? And I thought that Steve Klc's answer boiled down to, it's not up to the customers to decide that issue. It's chef and restauranteur driven. So now that we have gotten that part out of the way, all we have left is the morality of the VIP system. I thought that Wilfrid did an admirable job of disposing of that one yesterday by pointing out that both restaurants and customers are allowed to operate on the basis of a free market. Lots of things in a free market system seem "unfair." VIP treatment is just one more thing on the list. But fortunately, as we have pointed out to anyone who would like to partake in the custom, there is a non-monetary way to acquire this level of service for yourself. More then that you can't possibly ask for.

Gramercy Tavern, who in my knowledge pioneered cooking this cut in contemporary restaurants, serves it in a mostarda di frutta like you would serve with a bolito misto. It's quite good and sweetness pairs well with the fattiness of the bacon.

Thanks for clarifying that. I always wondered why it wasn't the Sssssame everywhere.

I have to say that the basic wine list at an upscale London restaurant is both way overpriced and piss poor in quality. I have never seen so much cheap plonk being sold as good quality wine for such outrageous prices, anywhere else in the world. To me it smells of monopolistic practices where agents and wholesalers have strangleholds over restaurants and force them to buy fourth and fifth tier bottlings. Even in places where you would expect to find a good wine list based on regionality like The Sugar Club, the list is shit. Why they can't have a good selection of New World wines that are reasonably priced doesn't make any sense. Only a handful of places like the Nigel Platts Martin restaurants and a few others break out of this mold. But in general, I have never seen so many 40 pound bottles of plonk on lists anywhere else in the world.

I second Al Bustan. It has the best falafal in London by far. Another good place to eat that is reasonable is Le Pescadou on the Old Brompton Rd just west of Earl's Court Rd. It's about a 10 minute walk from the South Kensington tube stop. It's a Provencal fish restaurant with pretty authentic food for London. Also on the same block a few doors down is a reasonable pizza place/light Italian restaurant called La Papardelle.

I have to say that I am always quite surprised to see the amount of negativity directed at this restaurant. My meal there was so unique, so modern and so fresh, that I would think it would count for more with people then it does. Yes the physical plant is sort of cramped. And the menu is sort of confusing. But if you craft together a good tasting menu of 10-12 dishes, you can eat really well, and certainly very interestingly .

I have found that the sizzling rice has a different sounding sizzle depending on the restaurant. Some of them go 'Sssssss' with a big S and some just quietly go 'sssss.' Any comments on why this happens?

Charlene - Well it's hard to believe but there really are people who fit that description. Not me mind you, I'm more the type who makes a weekly visit to a place on the Edgeware Road for a good kebab.

Martin - But you've just twisted this around to pitch the same thing but putting the emphasis elsewhere. This is a simple supply and demand issue. Start out with the premise that there is not enough of it to go around for every customer. Whether it is because of a lack of ingredients, or a lack of time to prepare something tricky. Regardless of what it is, the only way you can get it is to inform the restaurant that you would like it. And if you know about it, but don't ask, it has nothing to do with how the restaurant feels about you but how you feel about yourself. What you are demanding from a restaurant is equal treatment just because you have walked in the door. Do you think that is reasonable? What about the person who eats at Gordon Ramsey every week and splurges for a tasting menu for 4 and buys 3 expensive bottles of wine so his bill comes out to 3000 pounds a week. Should a first time visitor be accorded the same service that person gets? Not only doesn't he, but he shouldn't. I do not know a single business that does not cater to their special, or better customers. Why is a restaurant any different? The thing that is most absurd to me in this discussion, is that Liziee has shown that there is a way to get this type of treatment in restaurants without having to invest any money in the situation. All you have to do is to show them that you are really interested food. All you have to do is to indicate that you are interested in the food at a certain level then they will go out of their way for you. But even then you still resent it. You want to insist that they treat eveyone exactly the same. Well wake up and smell the porridge because it is that way in exactly zero high end restaurants you frequent. All of them have something held back for special customers who get it because they ask. And you either want to eat better or you don't. But in my opinion, if you let politics or morality get in the way of this simple transaction, you can't really be a food lover because you are being asked to give up absolutely nothing in exchange for what is potentially a vastly improved situation. Basildog - I don't want to get into a tricky conversation of what off menu means. It can mean the same meat or fish on the menu prepared with different saucing, or different vegetables. It can mean that the restaurant is willing to make tasting size portions of each dish. It can mean that they are willing to pair wines. It can mean many things. The point isn't to make people jump through hoops. The point is to say to them, please craft together your best meal for me. What's wrong with the WSJ article is that their premise is that it is a buyer's market because there's a recession going on. What they have failed to realize is that the thing they are trying to prove has already been available for decades, and has nothing to do with a recession. There has always been a type of currency that restaurants deal in that has to do with food appreciation, and isn't monetary. And it is this point which exposes them as not really being experienced diners.

Yes chazzerai is better. But I don't generally find too much chazzerai on the table. Where do they do that?

Have you ever seen what Chinese people are eating at Katz's?