Robenco15
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Posts posted by Robenco15
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3 hours ago, scott123 said:
It depends on how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go.
My favorite flour for NY style is bromated Spring King (Ardent Mills). It's typically very hard to find, though, and, I've yet to see it available via mail order. It's specs are very similar to bromated Full Strength (General Mills), and that is available via mail order, and some Restaurant Depots carry it. I see, from other posts, that you're in CT. Assuming it's Southern CT, Full Strength should be relatively easy for you to find, since Full Strength basically IS New Haven style pizza. You can make a very respectable New Haven style pie with King Arthur bread flour, which is basically unbromated Full Strength, but, if you want that authentic Pepe's/Sally's taste, you want to use the flour that they use.I might be evolving on bromated high gluten flours such as All Trumps. I don't think All Trumps will ever replace Spring King in my top spot for NY style, but, I've seen local places do some fairly impressive things with it. Joe's, the pizzeria that Mitch posted photos from earlier, is the archetype for All Trumps, low-ish hydration modern NY style slices. Joe's has, imo, slipped in quality during the last couple decades, but, it's still quite formidable, and is a great ambassador for the modern NY style slice.
That's New York and New Haven. You recently mentioned being 'converted' from Neapolitan. I know plenty of folks from CT who don't really resonate all that much with the inherent wetness of Neapolitan pizza. This being said, with the Koda 16, you basically own one of the only sub $1000 ovens capable of producing legitimate Neapolitan pizza, and I'd be sorry to see you give up on it entirely based on an, imo, horrible recipe that completely ignores tradition. If you wanted to set the book aside, though, and pursue traditional Neapolitan pizza- a style of pizza everyone should experience at least once, then, for that, my recommended flour would be either the Caputo Chef's/Cuoco flour (not the blue/pizzeria) or the 5 Stagioni pizza Napoletana.Thanks so much! Lot to digest here and I’ll be sure to re read it all. Wanted to quickly reply re: Neapolitan. I’ve been making nothing but Neapolitan pizzas for over a year and love them. Have also experimented and made Canotto style. Love it. All I was saying was I enjoyed the artisan dough so much I’m going to make more artisan pizzas now.
I love Neapolitan pizzas, have gotten very good at making them, and will be making dough today actually for pizza tomorrow. I also really like the Mod Pizza recipe and their high hydration recipe for Neapolitan.
I use the Caputo Blue, Caputo Super Nuvola, and Caputo Nuvola. Using Caputo Nuvola today. I’ll check out that non-Caputo flour you recommended!
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11 minutes ago, scott123 said:
The specs on stone ground flour can be a little misleading. Basically, wheat has a protein fraction near the hull that doesn't form gluten- but is still counted in the overall protein quantity. So you can have whole wheat flours that, on paper, appear to be high-ish protein, but that have very little gluten forming protein. Add to that the fact that the bran in stone ground flour acts like tiny little knives in the dough and cuts through gluten, stone ground/whole grain flour typically doesn't work well for pizza- at least, not on it's own.
Obviously, there are some famous folks that use stone ground flours for pizza- Richer is one, Scarr is another. But they're very careful to combine stone ground flour with stronger flour and to keep the whole grain flour to a minimum (less than 20%). They're both using it in small amounts for flavor, not for strength. Scarr is mitigating the damaging effects of the bran by sifting some of it out, which I see Cairnspring doing on it's Glacier Peak variety, which certainly helps avoid some of the bran's gluten destroying properties, but, at the end of the day, stone milling doesn't produce strong flour- at least, not the kind of strong flour you'd want for NY style pizza- or for a more manageable dough at elevated hydration.Thanks for this. Do you have any brands or mills you like and recommend?
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Cairnspring has wonderful high protein flour available online @Chris Hennesif you want to check it out.
Host's note: for more discussion about sources and types of flour preferred for homemade pizza, see this topic: Preferred flours for homemade pizza dough
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4 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:
In defiance of my earlier assertion that I prefer pizza dough with only a day of age, today I was making a sort of typical Thanksgiving meal, but not planned for service until this evening, so I needed a lunch option. I had a piece of the artisan dough in the fridge that was leftover from Tuesday, so I baked it off today and it was excellent, with none of the texture problems I associate with older pizza doughs. I probably ended up with something relatively close to a New York-style pizza: I made it with the New York sauce, pizza cheese and pepperoni, and stretched it to 14" so it was pretty thin in the middle, but still with what I think is a more pronounced rim than New York. There was actually a better crispness to the crust than on Tuesday, but it stayed nice and fluffy inside the rim. It was a nice prelude to the upcoming turkey-stuffing-potatoes feast coming this evening.
Yeah this dough is good for 3-5 days after their recommended time. Especially Artisan dough, it’s so good.
Happy Thanksgiving!
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43 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:
Genovese Pizza (Inspired by Pietro Parisi) (KM p. 290)
on
Artisan Pizza Dough (KM p. 54)
This is the first time I've made the "Artisan" pizza dough -- for them this style is a sort of catch-all for various cheffy non-Neapolitan, non-New York medium crust pizzas. The dough is 72% hydration, 3.2% fat, poolish-based, high-gluten flour dough with a one day cold proof: it's delicious, and quite easy to work with. I'll keep this one in the rotation.
The pizza toppings are basically French Onion soup (or a really fancy cheesesteak!). The "sauce" is browned onions deglazed with brandy, for the (optional) cheese I used Gruyere, and on top of that they call for shredded braised short ribs. I actually made this recipe specifically to use up some oxtail I had in the freezer, so I cooked it sous vide at 140°F for 100 hours (actually only 97, hopefully the 3% reduction didn't have a deleterious effect on the finished product
). It baked for five and a half minutes at 480°F with full convection. Overall it was successful: these toppings are probably not going in the regular rotation (I'm out of oxtail now), but if you're eyeing the recipe in the book and aren't too weirded out by its non-pizza-ness, I suggest giving it a go.
I really love their Artisan dough. Once these flours I ordered come in tomorrow and Thanksgiving is over I’m going to have a lot of fun with this dough.
Pizza looks good! I may nees to try these toppings.
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On 11/21/2021 at 11:01 AM, Kerry Beal said:
Can someone weigh in on what they feel the difference is between the traditional artisan dough and the traditional new york dough? They look similar enough to me to wonder what the difference the smaller amount of poolish would make.
Good question and one I’m working on. I think the cornicione is where the difference is greatest.
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Artisan is going to puff up more with an airier cornicione. NY is going to be denser with not as large of a rise around the rim.
I’m still learning and baking so that may be a very surface level of the differences, but it’s a start.
edit: one more thing I just thought of. Artisan pizzas take their inspiration from bread making so Artisan pizzas will use a mix of single grain flours and whole wheat much more. Pizza like Dan Richer’s at Razza specifically comes to mind. So for the Artisan recipe I will definitely be messing around with flours much more than I would with the NY, as that isn’t in the style of NY.
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Hosted a Friendsgiving tonight. Was good. Smoked the crown, SV the legs. Made sourdough dinner rolls. A jus gras instead of a traditional gravy and then some staples I do every year.
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2 hours ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:
Why? Or more specifically, in what ways?
The most noticeable difference would be the height of the sides being taller in an al taglio pan then a sheet pan. The al taglio pan being made of steel vs. an aluminum sheet pan also affects the results when making an al taglio pizza.
Would a sheet pan produce a serviceable pizza? Of course, but would a steel al taglio pan made for al taglio pizzas produce a better result? I’d say so. I’m going to be making al taglio pizza in two quarter al taglio pans and a sheet pan at some point. I’ll definitely post results.
@Chris HennesI’m sure a detroit pan works well enough for when you want a longer pizza.
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@weinoothey’d work, but an al taglio pan made specifically for that style is better.
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7 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:
Sort of: I bought some long, skinny pans to use for al taglio, but they are much smaller than the real thing.
I’m going to get two quarter al taglio pans (13x6) and just cut the recipe in half. I’m also going to buy an 18x13 sheet pan dedicated for focaccia and NY square pizza. Was considering a Lloyd Grandma Pan at 16x12 but I think the size isn’t where I want it to be.
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@Chris Hennesdo you have an Al Taglio pan? Thought I had it figured out but I don’t believe my oven is wide enough to fit a half size or full size pan (they’re the same length). I believe 23.6” is too tight.
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3 minutes ago, weinoo said:
Basil.
Ah my mistake. Your bad pizza take is slightly less bad.
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5 hours ago, weinoo said:
While your pizza (and @Chris Hennes's) look good, many of the recipes appear (or sound to) work better when both of you have played around with them.
With such an expensive set of books, well-researched and documented, that is a bit disappointing, in my opinion.
It also (to me, at least) means they're full of baloney about what pizza is good and what pizza isn't, on their taste tour of America.
First, I don't disagree with what you think. Totally valid opinion.
I can't speak for @Chris Hennes, but apart from using my previous knowledge of sourdough pizzas, I haven't played around with any other of their recipes (apart from messing around with flour choices which one time actually screwed me because I went against the book). The two pizzas above is their Neapolitan Dough Master Recipe to the letter and they were fantastic.
The Artisan Dough and NY Dough are PERFECT. I'm not sure I'll ever need another dough recipe for those styles. They've also converted me away from Neapolitan I think. I'm looking forward to going deep into the Artisan pizza making game.
The only thing I find that can be different is possibly the RT proof times. My kitchen runs cold so I need to go a few hours longer than what they recommend.
With so many variables in baking it's tough to follow any recipe exactly and get proper results unless you are in a professional kitchen. Thomas Keller's Bouchon Bakery would suffer from the same problem. Just gotta use your intuition. Fortunately it's usually just a matter of extending a proof time here or there.
In terms regards to their pizza rankings, I mean, who cares? It's just one more list of pizza rankings. I really appreciate their thoughts as a starting point, but whatever. I live in CT. I've had New Haven pizza a lot. They are completely right about the burnt crust they complained about. It's still awesome pizza.
Aren't you the guy who said nothing green belongs on a pizza? ; )
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23 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:
Why are you reballing?
Went flat as the fermentation never really took off. Reballing gives it a chance to get its shit together, for lack of a better term. But in this case it was a lost cause. None of them worked. Recipe just isn’t good. No need to put them in a 39F fridge after such a short bulk. Next time I’ll just follow the Master Recipe fermentation schedule and it’ll come out perfectly.
Luckily I did make the Master Recipe last night just in case this happened and it was fantastic. Nuvola flour is great.
Marinara and Margarita
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Well after 24 hours out of the fridge and two reballings, the sourdoughs look spot on. Looking forward to comparing Super Nuvola vs. Nuvola.
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2 hours ago, FlashJack said:
OK, a probably ill-advised toe in this water:
What thoughts on the MP Pizza podcast by MC?
I have happily bought MC, MB and MP. I think they are (1) extraordinarily valuable works of research and publishing and (2) execrably bad in their writing, editing, indexing and, sometimes,
conception.I have an extreme aversion to Nathan. His main gig is Intellectual Ventures. That oxymoronically named company is a patent vulture. I also don't like the "worked with Stephen Hawking" thing. That sounds to me like clerking for Clarence Thomas; there have been a lot clerks most of whom have likely become only hacks in good suits.
(Also -- and I've gotta get over this -- to have been CTO at Microsoft is, to me, a badge of utter shame. I have lost so many nights to known-buggy software that shipped, corrupted my files, cause me grief and made my life visibly worse as to never being able to have anything other than utter scorn for Bill Gates and his conspirators. I don't care if Bill eradicates malaria, cures cancer and solves the hydrogen thing. He stole my money and a lot of my life. Don't start me on auto-numbering.)
Back to the podcast. I just listened to the third episode. It's weirdly unfocused and unproduced. Ep 3 was supposedly about flour. I know *a little* about flour. I ended up knowing less. I heard rehearsed nonsense and came away thinking:
1. I sniff a lot of undisclosed commercial affordances and back-scratching going on here (I'm trying to be polite)
2. It's just not interesting
3. Is related to (1) and my off-topic rant: I just don't trust these people. I think they are burning their best asset.
Thoughts?
All that makes sense. I actually really enjoy the Mod Pizza content, but indexing I can see. Bit of a pain.
I really enjoyed Mod Cuisine @ Home and have the Mod Cuisine Kitchen Manual and have cooked from that with great results so I’m a fan of their work. I’ll actually be getting Mod Bread for Christmas after how much I’ve enjoyed Mod Pizza.
All that other stuff you mention is totally reasonable, just doesn’t bother me as much.
Have not listened to the podcast, but probaby won’t. Have a lot of other podcasts I enjoy and need to keep up on.
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13 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:
Do I understand correctly that the Chef's is not malted?
Correct. Neither are malted.
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44 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:
Chris, what is your opinion of the flours? I have a few kilos of Caputo Chef's but I have not yet tried it for pizza.
The Chef and Pizzeria are both great. If you’re working in a home oven at 550F tops Chef is what you want, if you don’t want bread flour. Pizzeria works better than Chef at the high heat a pizza oven like the Ooni puts out. Both are good though and using one instead of the other isn’t a huge deal.
Home ovens I’d stick with bread flour and other artisanal flours like the stuff from Cairnspring or Central Milling. I’ve been really enjoying the Artisan pizza dough more than the Neapolitan and have some fun flours coming to me from Cairnspring. I don’t love Dan Richer’s new pizza book, but it did show me how finding a really good and different flour can make for an exceptional pizza experience.
Meanwhile I’m currently bulk fermenting the Mod Pizza Neapolitan dough with Caputo Nuvola for the first time so definitely curious to see how it goes tomorrow night. Pretty sure my Levain dough is a dud. No reason to put it in a refrigerator. Basically kills it.
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Made the Levain Neapolitan dough today. Did a 4hr bulk ferment at 75F before balling. Honestly still not sure it was enough based on how it balled up. Sourdough starter doughs, at least pizza, in my experience really need long RTfermenting to get going. I honestly think following the fermentation steps for their Master Neapolitan dough would probably give great results. I guess I’ll find out Tuesday how this goes.
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7qts of Turkey stock made with chicken stock combined with last year’s Turducken stock. Enough for gravy and to save some to add into next year’s turkey stock. It’s an infinity stock I guess?
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9 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:
Right -- Modernist Bread's main "hack" is to suggest that most hacks don't really work well anyway, and the key is to reduce the volume of the oven so that the moisture from the dough itself functions as the source of steam. So I have a hotel pan that I use as a lid when I'm baking multiple loaves, and use a cast iron combo-cooker when doing just a single boule.
Ok cool. My range has a double oven so the bottom oven is already smaller than a standard one. I’ll start with that and take it from there. Thanks!
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Just now, BetD said:
I put a pan full of “lava rocks” (for use in gas grills) on the shelf below my stone and they all preheat for a good long time while the bread is rising. When you put the bread in, add a cup of boiling water to the pan of hot rocks (carefully!!) and get the oven door shut before you get steamed as well.
After the fiasco with the oven door glass, I always set a cookie pan over the glass before I add the water… it may sound awkward, but it is all a pretty quick process.
Oh ok that’s Keller’s hack from Bouchon Bakery I believe. I’m curious what hacks Modernist Bread may have. The bread I’ve done is in a dutch oven so I spray it with water before putting the lid on and baking. Ice cubes seem to be another clever way of introducing steam.
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33 minutes ago, BetD said:
I certainly remember breaking the glass on my oven door when I spilled some of my “steam water” on it 😯
…could you elaborate? I’d like to not do this to my oven…
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On 11/11/2021 at 7:45 PM, Chris Hennes said:
Levain-Based Neapolitan Dough (KM p. 80)
They provide recipes for levain-based versions of their nine basic doughs, so tonight I made Neapolitan-style pizza with levain instead of commercial yeast. It's an easy dough to work with and shape, with good flavor, but the texture is a bit chewier than I prefer in pizza.
Last question as I’m making this dough tomorrow.
Did you follow the recipe exactly? “20 min. bench rest and then shaped into balls and into the fridge”? I have found sourdough pizza dough that gets a cold ferment benefits from a RT bulk ferment between 2 and 4 hours. It gives the levain a chance to get going. Too soon into the fridge and it never gets a chance to develop.
Preferred flours for homemade pizza dough
in Cooking
Posted
Yep have made that pizza plenty. I like hydration more in the 62-65%, but it’s been awhile since I’ve done a 58%.