Carrot Top

To paraphrase Henry Kissenger, perhaps the reason the politics here are so vicious is because the stakes are so low. ← I remember a similar line being used for academic politics. Maybe what this shows is that everyone is getting "smarter", becoming more like the academics? ...................................... It *is* interesting once the brouhaha dies down to see who is left standing, and what stances they each hold individually. I still say it is impossible to ever know this thing called truth when one is so very far from being able to personally measure the facts. I can appreciate, though, the concept that some have of "what is right" and "what is wrong" to do in any given situation. Doing the "right" thing does not always bring profit, though - - - and doing the "wrong" thing may bring acclaim, depending on whether the public cares about intent or not. My interest was in the piece of writing. I've learned a lot in reading this thread how a piece of writing can be looked at by people as something other than "just a story", that's for sure. And in a year, it will be even more interesting to see where everyone that was politically or personally involved in this thing is standing and how (or if) this furor of questioning has affected them. Can't wait. The saga continues.

I asked my eleven year old son this question earlier this afternoon and this was his reply (sung out with a rough-hewn deep voiced Appalachian accent to assure me of his sincerity): "Ooooh, Mommy do you know how to skin a gopher? Tell you what I like. I like a good grilled nunchuk. Nothin' like a grilled nunchuk. Alongside that just give me some o' them phlem cakes. Phlem cakes, phlem cakes. Hey Mom, is there really anything called a phlem cake? I want some. Gimme some chili*pik*onn*tey that's chili pik*onn* tey sauce on the side! Grilled nunchuk! Phlem cakes! An' chili pik*onn*tey mmm mmm mmm. Can't beat that, mm mm." Of course I know how to skin a gopher. But these phlem cakes might be a problem. .......................................................... What, you wanted a serious answer from him? ........................................................... Both children gave me full menus when I asked. The thing is, that I am sure the menus they "wrote" today will be different tomorrow when I ask. How long they could or would go on for with a new or altered menu each day, I'm not sure. That might be interesting to find out. In the meantime, I'm going on a gopher hunt. And am hoping he'll forget about "phlem cakes".

What is the cost of being a green-tea drinking, Birkenstock-wearing, dangling earring, Farmers Market shopping type vs. a Starbucks type, Pontormo? I hope that the undoubtedly hand-glazed painted heavy pottery mugs of tea are not approaching the four dollar "Grrrrrrrande" cappucino at Starbucks. Of course we must do our part to support small business owners, but something inside me howls (and not for mercy) each time I decide to enter the Cave of Fiends that is called Starbucks with my little plastic card that the numbers of dollar signs get so easily entered upon and drawn away from my hoard of gold that is stored in the US Treasury somewhere somehow. Pink is always a bit dubious, I think. It takes a daring woman to wear it. Asian food with anything sesame is always good. Right and proper for the modern teahouse. Savvy.

Yes, you can't beat the instructions in that set of books (the Good Cook). To me, it was a surprise to discover that fact, for the series was so low-key. Low-key but rather full of lots of great stuff, and some not-so-simple stuff. No hoopla, no hollerin' about how fantastic it was. It just *was*. A good thing. (Ouch. I almost wanted to erase that last line for fear of sounding Martha-ish but what the heck. It *was* and is a good thing. ).

I am honestly startled at how vital this institution of "ladies who lunch" still seems to be! What wonderful stories, and amazing memories. The shape has changed and I guess still will continue to - but what fun! Sounds like a good habit to take up.

I've been to the (Columbia) University Club several times, in the 1980's. It was not a ladies-lunching place, that's for sure. Female guests were not actively encouraged but they would tolerate us if they had to upon request of a member, for dinner. Let's not forget the clear or jellied consomme options, now. Aside from that I agree with you on the menu. I had a boyfriend who used to take me to the Colony Club sometimes for Saturday lunch with Mummy. (Heh.) One of the reasons I was curious about the current fashion detail for ladies who lunch is that the first time we were to go there, I didn't have any idea where we were going. I didn't dress. . .uh. . . right. (So what else is new.) It was a terribly difficult decision to make - would he take me to lunch with Mum and Sis decked out in my leather skirt and angora sweater? Or would we have to jump in a cab and get back to Brooklyn Heights, have me change clothes, then hop back in the cab to the club? A dreadfully stressful decision, as you might imagine. No cabs to be found on Park Avenue. We went to lunch. (Not wanting to cancel on Mum.) Mum was rather taken aback by me. I tried to make myself into an eccentric conversation piece that could then be tolerable. It worked okay. But as for the food, I would have preferred to eat, almost anywhere else. Papaya King, anyone?

Are there still many tearooms around, Ruth? I don't think I've ever been to one. I have heard of one (specifically called a "tearoom") somewhere near DC but of course there may be tearooms that are tearooms but not named as such.

My feeling is that some of the clubs might have died out in the nineties -different cultural emphasis was going on with restaurants becoming *the* places to go more than ever before, don't you think? But surely some are still there. Even the hotels in New York went through an amazing renaissance in the nineties - new ones popping up everywhere. . .

Maybe we should start a thread called "strange hambone stories". For I have one too, but it went the opposite way. I took dinner (the whole dinner) over to a friend's house for Thanksgiving once many years ago. She was depressed and said she did not want to cook. Did the whole thing, ate the dinner, we cleaned up and because I had too much stuff to carry home, I asked if I could leave the ham bone in her freezer for a while. All well and fine. Wrapped it up and popped it into the freezer. Later in the week I started to get calls on my answering machine. (I was working a lot of hours then and was rarely home.) "When are you going to come get this hambone?" "The hambone is still in the freezer here, you know." "If you are going to leave the hambone here, do you want me to re-wrap it better?" Let's note that this person was not a cook by any means. The freezer was empty but for the hambone, a quart of ice-cream, and two frozen TV dinners. So it was not uh, "in the way". The phone calls became more urgent, finally on the fourth day reaching three on that same day. I called her from work and asked if there was a problem. "YOUR HAMBONE!" she screeched at me. "IT IS STILL HERE! DO YOU WANT IT OR NOT?" Uh, no. . .please just throw it away, I said. Sorry to have bothered you. Hambones. Some sort of strange thing going on there. (Maybe we can consider this a pot-luck story since I *did* carry that dinner over to her house. . .sigh.)

I've personally been in about six lunches with groups of people (in this case they were women) who were married to members of Congress. There was no focus or intent to exclude men from this group but there were no men there. The lunches were for the purpose of finalizing menu planning for several large functions that involved showcasing New York State foods. I was there as consultant. It was a business/political thing that I was required to do because of where I worked, and I was also required to develop the final menu which would be presented to the Executive Chef at the hotel where the function (which would be for about 1200 people) would be held. The group was quite animated and extremely knowledgeable about the districts that they were there to represent. So much so that the cant of identity politics overtook the discussion at large which was supposed to be about finding a menu and it was nigh impossible to finally define one for the intensity with which each district's identity was fought over as the more important. This group of people seemed quite vitally involved in what they were doing. Seemed to me that there would be somewhere they might lunch in DC together at times. But maybe not.

How does that happen when all of a sudden things start showing up in lots of places at the same time about the same subject? That's awesome. Leads me to believe in telepathy or something. Or else we are all just always talking about everything and only notice what we're talking about when we want to? Thanks for the link, Megan. Now I am off to lunch. Not as a lady today, but as a Mom. I'll raise a glass of school-lunch cafeteria chocolate milk to y'all!

I'm also curious to know whether the concept of "ladies who lunch" exists in other cultures - so far our answers are Western-culture based. Does this concept exist in some form in Eastern cultures?

One group that I've noticed as having some sort of social significance in DC are the Congressman's Wives. Are they generally too busy in their days divided between doing good acts and studying Macchiavelli to "lunch" I wonder? Or is there some special place they have their own indulgements as ladies who lunch? Edit note: I've been reminded by a friend that not all members of Congress are men and not all spouses of Congress members function in the traditional sense of supportive "seconds" to the major, but instead have their own independent careers. This is of course, completely true. My use of the term "Congressmen's Wives" was meant in a way that would be inclusive of all those who would fit the general concept of that term as it has been traditionally understood in times throughout history - it could even include men if it were a man in the role. If the term offended anyone, my apologies. To me, though, the group that I speak of does seem to exist and to be of a definite shape. What it should be called I can not imagine - new terms for old things that will redefine our society is a mindbendingly awesome task.

Thanks for that fun link, Oceangroveguy! I meant to thank you yesterday, but got carried away with all the stories and had to spend all night checking my wardrobe to see if indeed, I "had anything to wear" or not. For any purpose. I think the article that was in my mind was more recent, but you've provided us with yet another example of the classic piece of journalism that tells of an end of a restaurant and hints at the end of a fabulous era because of it.

Well, I am not so sure I am a foodie. Not that there is anything wrong with being a foodie, at all. I remember two foods distinctly that made me swoon in my youth to the point of feeling as if I were falling in love. Lustful love. One was a big twist of pink cotton candy, when I was seven. I think I moaned in ecstasy through the whole fluffy thing of it, and literally felt as if I were somehow being brought close to God. The other was the first loaf of freshly baked bread I'd ever tasted, a big round loaf, torn into pieces with my hands, with a chunk of cheddar cheese to go along with it, when I was thirteen years old. I sort of gobbled at it as if to eat it would be to save my life. It felt as if I needed it, needed it badly. Then of course that Chateau Latour of some good vintage in later years and those silver salvers of caviar at Petrossian were pretty damn good, too. Yeah. Can't stand cotton candy anymore. I wonder if this has some religious significance for me.

And other than the salad salad salad and broiled fish and bottled water lunch, there seems to be a theme of some comfort foods of sorts on the menus. Elegant comfort foods of course - let's rule out meatloaf and mashed potatoes I think but perhaps a bit of Shrafft's nonetheless in style. Small dishes with some sense of style? I wonder if ice cream in all its ways is consumed at the same rate as it used to be.

Yeah. Absolutely. I wonder what the percentage is though of high-heelers to low-heelers. Sorry. Can't help myself. It's a fashion thang. Ivana I would imagine wears heels. I also think that some cities might be prone to higher-heels than others in this atmosphere. Paris - high heeled. New York - more low heeled I think. I wonder about other places. How about colors? Is classic black still "in"? Any other fashion notes from around the world scene of Ladies Who Lunch?

This sounds absolutely lovely. Do you think the older ladies who lunch might still do so at Browns or The Savoy or have those places become overrun with tourists rather than locals?

Can't think of a better reason to re-build, myself. Why, really. . .if it were the only reason it would be enough to inspire. And it is a good reason to get old, too.

Wow. I am surprised at the places everywhere with ladies all lunching! (No - actually I *never* get out, so you all will have to tell me all about it. . . ) The Ur-Place of Ladies Who Lunch, to me, is The Colony Club. In season, of course. Interesting about that definition of the style of the younger set, Megan. I admit I am curious about the shoes. Do tell. Does the height of the heel define a woman?

Really - the horror that is pot-luck. (Sorry, I keep waiting to be shown differently but it hasn't happened yet. ) It almost has a science-fiction aura to me by this point, the idea of pot-lucks. The last one I went to was at some church thing. Regular suburban-type church, upper-middle class, good variety of people from all over the country and all over the world go to this church. We were there because my daughter used to go to some children's group thing with a friend of hers who belonged to the church. Christmas-time Pot-Luck. In one of the seemingly hundreds of rooms they have that extended from the church proper in gleeful little rows. There apparently were more choices of rooms in the church than there were in the choices of things that people had brought to the pot-luck. Every. Single. Table. Had some sort of tortilla chip thing with salsa and cheese on it, or beans, or meat and beans and salsa. Some glopped up sour cream here and there. Twenty dishes made from packaged tortilla chips with glop. Nothing else. Oh. But for the five trays of homemade brownies that all looked and tasted exactly as if they came from the same recipe (box?), too. (Where's that Twilight Zone music?) Edited to add: There was actually one of those cheese and port ball thingies with crackers. I stood next to it and nibbled at it while staring at all the tortilla chip thingies, and when a woman came near I happened to make the comment, "Nice port and cheese ball - I just wish she'd left the bottle". Not the right thing to say at a church, apparently, from the look she gave me. Oh, yeah. I also forgot to add that when I asked (when invited) if I could "bring anything" I was told "No, no, no! Please don't! We've got plenty of food!"

In Manhattan and perhaps in other large cities (San Francisco? London?) there used to be a social contingent of those who were described as "Ladies Who Lunch". Ladies who lunch have their own style, generally, in clothing and deportment, and they have a somewhat predictable pattern in the places they choose to dine. I remember reading of when the doors finally closed on one of New York's fine old establishments that was a gathering place for ladies who lunch. A new era was heralded and along with that new era, a new fashion sense was being developed. Babe Paley's Hermes scarf tied ever-so-casually yet perfectly on a strap of her handbag, that subtle accesory that defined her style, her era, was denounced as passe. Try that look and oops! The Fashion Police might not come to your door, but indeed you might be marked by Those in the Know as. . .well. Rather passe yourself, darling. Do ladies who lunch still exist in the numbers they used to? Where do they gather in your city, if you have space for these rare birds with their defining feathers of finery? What sort of dining establishment draws ladies who lunch - what are the things inherent in the ways the restaurant is run that makes it comfortable for them? What defines their new style - are there any focal points in their fashion displays that have become a mark of who they are in this era? Or have ladies who lunch blended into the environment so as not to be noticed today?

Well - the beauty of the thing aside (as if one could or would want to do that ). . .I am still wondering what it IS, you know! Fruit salad? Stunning! What sort of "delicious sauce"? I've never seen a fruit salad look like that! I wait to hear that with anticipation. Edited to add: I have found the description, above, in the thread now. Must. remember. to. have. coffee. before. reading. eG in the morning.

There is a fantastic herbed chicken salad in the "Good Cook" series book on salads. Almost totally green with herbs. Served on bibb lettuce with black bread to go with it? Yum. The linzertorte and the dobostorte recipes in the "Foods of the World" series from "Viennas Empire" are also excellent.

Yes, that's the one. Great book! (Said almost twenty years after I first read it )