Carrot Top

Before organic chickens came packaged in plastic to our chain grocery stores, there were live poultry markets in many cities where one could go to pick out a bird, have it killed and cleaned, then take it home to cook. The flavors of those birds (whether organically fed or not) was rich, stupendous, fantastic, enticing. I remember markets in Little Italy in NYC, out near the water in Red Hook, Brooklyn. . .one in Bridgeport, Connecticut and one (naturally) in Paris. Do they still exist anywhere?

Wow. Deja vu, Ling. I had the same experience once many years ago -eight or ten people at a dinner where everyone's idea of "food to bring" turned out to be bottles of wine. I brought a roast chicken - a "fresh-killed" one from the market they used to have where we lived then that was housed in an old ware-house type space, where you would walk in and pick out your chicken as it clucked in the lines of cages - all varieties of birds, all sizes, so many colors. . . The taste of that chicken was one that will remain in memory forever. Particularly since I think people were trying to inhale the very bones of the thing. The effect of drinking a lot of wine then watching supposedly normal people attack a small roasted bird, tearing at it ravenously as if they had all turned to strange troll-like creatures was unforgettable, too. Whew.

Somewhat safer to eat than "Mixed Gotti Soup", anyway.

Your mention of raw hot dogs reminded me that (along with raw bacon) they were one of the things I used to take from the fridge and just eat, when my mother was not home, as a child. (This could be the reason for the way I am today, perhaps. ) Anyway - it also came to mind that besides hot dogs in a bun and hot dogs on a plate as a meal, there are several other ways I've seen them eaten. A babysitter I had in Second Grade (first generation Italian) used to make the same sandwich for lunch AND as an after-school snack (those were the days when one walked home for lunch from elementary school ) for her two daughters and myself, every single day. Sliced cold hot dogs on white bread with ketchup, cut in half (straight across not diagonally of course). It didn't bother me too much, but one day when my mother came to pick me up after school and found me sitting on the front step of the babysitters house where I'd been directed to go till my mother was due to pick me up (for the dreadful sin the sitter had caught me in of playing tag with the boys on the school playground) (again, vastly different times it was in Euclid, Ohio in 1963. . . ) with one of these sandwiches clutched in my hand, it was (apparently) the idea of the sandwich that inscensed her enough to discontinue any visits to that babysitter and instead, to have me make my own lunch and after-school snack at home by myself. Heh. So indirectly, cold hot dogs were responsible for my being taught responsiblity for self at a rather young age. Another sliced hot dog story - my Italian mother-in-law used to feed her six children polenta with sliced hot dogs in it. . .a soupy sort of thing. The family apparently loved it. So there is yet another form here that the hot dog takes in America - as a substitution for whatever sorts of sausages existed in the original recipes "in the old country". And again, something affordable.

Roald Dahl and Apicius. And I am in full in agreement with pork in specifying the addendum he added to his post. They would have to be naked. What fun!

But if we are going to discuss the semiotics of the hot dog, surely we must also discuss the semiotics of all that surrounds it, starting with the bun. What does it mean that hot-dogs themselves are packaged in sets of eight and hot-dog buns are packaged in sets of six? Does this say to the world (semiotically) that in our culture there are simply never enough buns to go around for the amount of hot dogs out there? Does it mean that we always feel ourselves to be two buns short? Perhaps it is an economic semiotic that reminds us that even if we buy the cheapest processed foods in America, we can expect to get financially screwed or confused somehow? Really. For what is a hot dog without a bun, I ask you?

It certainly is true also, that each and every elementary school "social" function (and they seem to be endless) depends on raising funds by selling hot dogs, either dried out cold ones that were heated at home and carried hopefully into the school auditorium and placed on the long tables in battered aluminum tins covered with foil. . .or hot overblown strangely shaped ones that float in water dotted with their own lost grease spots. . .bumping their ends merrily together in the warmed water in the hot pots plugged into the wall with endless lengths of extension cords. . . .either sort then pried up with a fork and stuffed onto cheap buns that have at least one hardened tough spot from sitting out in a half-torn plastic bag for way too long. . .dribbled with cheap mustard or squiggled with tons of ketchup, they raise funds for our childrens education. Or I think they do anyway. It is entirely possible that the teachers would want to run out into the night towards the nearest bar and drink up the profits after watching the kids and their parents gobble those things down endlessly. (Please forgive me. Too many years spent in endless PTA meetings offering to do a pigroast for a fundraising function, ANY fundraising function, and always, ALWAYS having the vote go to. . . ta da! The hot-dog! With potato chips and soda, bien sur.)

No A&W's around here. . .they closed the last one nearby (that was in a mall foodcourt in Roanoke) last year. I still mourn Zum-Zum's.

One of the "user reviews" voted "no" when asked if the place was romantic. Gosh. Whyever not I wonder? .................................................. In terms of finally determining the semiotics of the hot dog, this morning the thought came to mind to wonder if there is such a thing as a "Semiotic Table". You know, sort of like "The Periodic Table of Elements" but rather used to determine semiotic values of food words (and other cultural elements naturally). Can any of you academics out there advise on such a thing? It would be very useful for the business world, I imagine. Helpful in deciding what to name your restaurant, you know, based on the score your food words received in whatever categories there were. . . Really. Can you imagine if "Five Guys Burgers and Fries" was named instead "Five Guys Hot Dogs and Fries"? Surely it would be a bust. . .

This is true. And now I am worried. (I'm assuming you mean A&W when you say "hot dog chain"? Or is there something out there in America I'm missing?) When I think of "places to get hot dogs" I think of Sabrett carts; Seven-Eleven ; Orange Julius and by not-so-happy extension Dairy Queen; Hardee's; Sonic; and oh! lots of other independent places. Here nearby in Roanoke there is a true hot dog place, too. Found a link to it and more at Holly's: Roanoke Wiener Stand Hollyeats Ahhh. Now I'm really getting hungry. This hot dog thing is not such a bad idea after all.

Let me pry my tongue from my cheek momentarily too - to say that I think I've found the popular origin in print media of the word "hot dog". In "American Food" Evan Jones says the "nickname came along when a sports cartoonist created a dachshund with a body that looked like a sausage" and also noted that immigrant German butchers often kept these dogs in their shops. This is supported by "The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America" which states that "the term 'hot-dog' was certainly popularized by such originators of slang phrases as the sports cartoonist T.A. Dorgan (TAD) early in the twentieth century." I'd love to see those cartoons. ............................................................... Jack, it is no surprise how you feel about the hot-dog. You are surrounded by people to whom, apparently, it does not exist. (Or at the very least, it is something not spoken of in polite conversation! ) Neither "The Oxford Companion to Food" nor the "Cambridge World History of Food" have mention of the dreaded thing. ................................................................... Sorry about taking so long to relay this information. . .had to make burgers for dinner. Now do tell, Jack - if the hot dog is the cultural food symbol of America (though I'm not quite sure it is anymore, really) . .what is the symbol of England? P.S. I just noticed that somehow we all started talking about the hot-dog and neglected the hamburger. Now if that doesn't demonstrate the true value of semiotics, I don't know what does. . .

"When mighty roast beef was the Englishman's food, It enobled our hearts and enriched our blood, Our soldiers were brave and our courtiers good. Oh! The roast beef of old England!" Richard Leveridge Place a steak in front of the lady. The Queen of England (if indeed it is true that she requests "no garlic") is far from the only political figure in the world to make special requests wherever they travel. And garlic is often not used at all, in many Northern Italian cuisines.

Wait. Just. A. Minute. What were the dates of the Victorian era? May I propose that my thesis be called "Victoria's Albert Conspiracy as Evidenced in America"?

We have them here too. Here, they are tiny little things in tiny little cans. With a tiny little price tag, and sold in grocery stores that specialize in tiny sorts of foods. Here, we call them Vienna Sausages. Some speculate that they are called Vienna Sausages to assure one of the cultural disconnect. Some people love them. Excuse me, I think I am hyperventiliating. Must go.

Nice site. Astonishing how everything can be traced back to Babylon. I hope I don't have a slip of the tongue next time I'm in a diner based on this new knowledge. Why, whatever would they think of me if I asked for a "Babylonian Sausage on a Bun"?

We are unafraid of putting our foots in our mouths here. Better a foot than a metre.

Absolutely right, Sandy. This is a vital question that we must pursue with vigor. I do hope that someone can inform us as to not only "how" it disappeared (which is quite mysterious, quite mysterious and enticing to the enquiring mind!) but additionally, for the full story indeed, WHERE it disappeared to.

Oh! Has anyone brought up the subject of the "foot-long hot dog" yet? Surely this exists solely in the US. I would love to know how that came about.

"Chip- buddy" or "chip-butty". . .sadly I must inform you that neither one exists in Cassell's Dictionary of Slang (such publishing company perched proudly on The Strand, you know, right-o) under "chip". This startled me. I had to presume that apparently in the British mind, the Chip Butty is a real thing, a real word, unlike our "hot-dog", a transfigured bit of slang. Fifty-five entries in this dictionary based upon "chip" and nary a butty. Finally I did find the entry under "butty". With a note about jam. Why did they insist on doing that backwards? Let's give this chip-butty thing some respect! Put it in the dictionary in the proper form! Not hidden, backwards, where one has to search for it. Crying shame. At least in America our hot-dogs stand proud and loud, never hidden away.

I dunno. Marvellous prose in that piece and much for the mind to linger upon in fascination, attempting to visualize the *exact* things he is talking about - but mostly what I took away from it is that hot dogs, in their current form in the United States - in the poverty of their makings - can be directly linked to all the hungry Brits who came here after the War. Something had to be made quickly and inexpensively that they would eat and eat happily without grumbling about it being too "spicy". And obviously something had to be made that would go with "beans on toast" which as we know, is a most British staple, and quite, uh. . .tasty? American hot-dogs are a product made for hungry Brits. Why. . .thank you, Jack! Thank you, and all of your compatriots!

I dunno. You might try that "get on the horse and lets go calving" idea. ← Oh. Sorry. Wait a minute. I may be quoting an Alan Simpson speech. Nah.

I dunno. You might try that "get on the horse and lets go calving" idea. A little hibachi grill in in the backpack for the mountain oysters-to be and some of that warm cheap beer, and ooo hoo! ................................................................. Well, of course another ploy, slightly different, could be to offer to bring fresh bagels by "for breakfast before work starts" some day. Just a friendly gesture, you know. Simple friendship. Bagels. Hot bagels. Cream cheese. A ripe tomato. Some smoked salmon perhaps? Forget the weekday. Bring some champagne and make it a Saturday thing.

Hot dogs, pizza, chicken nuggets, french fries. Someone should write a song about them. . . Raffi maybe?

Grrrr. Yeah. Chomp. Watch that "us", buddy. But here's a note on the subject from Vladimir Estragon. Wonder if he ever chomped on a mountain oyster during calving. . . "Though regarded with disdain by the chic, and horror by the alfalfa-sprout crowd, hot-dogs are flat-out wonderful. And versatile. Dripping ith hot onions and ball-park mustard from a Sabrett man, they taste like New York; served in little cardboard doo-hickeys and called frankfurters, they taste like America. They also make no unreasonable demands on the home cook."

It is possible that I wrote strongly about this issue, taking it slightly aside from the original question, but it seemed to me that to give the answer "Quit school" was not perhaps centered within the positive range of ideas for becoming a food writer, either - particularly as there was some experience being gained writing AT the school in this situation. My apologies if I over-reacted, but there are some things in life that can be unfortunate facts if ignored, and the fact is that sometime in some people's lives, they *may* actually need to find income through being employed by someone else - and the idea of saying "I've got talent" is not as good as the idea of saying "I've got talent; education in a traditionally acceptable form; and experience." This may not be all that important "right now" for the young woman asking the original question, but *if* she is ever out on the"job market" when she is say. . .35 or 45. . .competing with other folk for the same job. . .these things will be points in her favor. As for the punctuation notion and the grammar flammar, I totally agree. But on the other hand, I do like to see someone write about something that it does seem they have some knowledge of, rather than just shooting off their mouths. That, is an unfortunate pet peeve of mine, and it makes me lose my own smile too often. The only thing I've read that every single authority on writing says to do to be successful that is across-the-board "the same" is WRITE. And yes, humor is wonderful. I enjoy yours often at eG, Sandy. Sometimes humor in the form of parody can be "unhelpful", though, (to the writer) if someone reading it takes it in a serious form or if the reader finds things in it that perhaps are not "really" there (to the majority of readers) but only to the reader who for whatever reason may become angry at these perceived mal-intents. That's the only problem with writing humor.