Carrot Top

Interesting comparison...and one that I never would have thought of!

It would take a trip to the thesaurus to find the words that would tell you how this made me feel...your writing, and all that is behind it in terms of this particular experience you have so recently had...and the feelings that thread though it all in an intensity of finely-woven emotions that have been created by the life your mother offered while she was here. You have packed love in those dishes you prepared for your father...love and sustenance of a sort that words can not offer. That is a continuance of what your mother did for you all...and that is the best thing this world has to offer. He will grow stronger in this time, when he goes to the freezer and eats. Not from the food...but from what it holds.

Nice post, there. Informational, educational, full of things to think about...including the taste of the food and wine. But I must say that the high point of it all, for me anyway, was the invention of the word 'cloddish babboso'. Good job! I am pleased to make this part of my vocabulary....it makes me smile to even think of the word....

'Good'? Merely 'good', McDuff? That sounds more like a small taste of heaven. Now we need to hear what you would define as 'great', please, for we are hungry and rely on these words to feed us....

Your butts are the best, snowangel. It must have something to do with beer imbibed, early, on a school day. Thank you for the advice...I will try it.

I wonder if there is a 'Gadget-of-the-Month' Club anywhere...then of course one would have to join a 'Monthly-Storage-Solution-For-Your-Kitchen Gadgets' Club.... I'm with the Wolf stove people. Can I add a nice solid butcher block table and about five of the best knives available? No. Wait. I need a good dishwasher and a larger Kitchen Aid mixer. And some attachments. Can we make this ten thousand or so, StudentChefEclipse? Pretty please?

Sinclair...if you feel your posts have been 'attacked' then dismissed...well...this is a public debate. It takes bravery to state out loud in front of people what a person strongly believes and then to stand up for it, for there will be other viewpoints, and they will be just as strong. This debate could probably go on for the ages...but it will, within our own group, probably wear out after we've all said what we think needs being said. And finally, at the end of this debate, if we have all opened our hearts and minds to what each person has said, we might be lucky to take away a bit of knowledge that can move us each individually forward in whatever direction one wants to go. The debate is still open, however, so if you think there is more to say, that option is available. But discussion of intense subjects like this never is too pretty. As far as drawing in the idea of a personal life to support ideas or arguments, it seems to me that the genesis of the notion that a woman's personal life did have some interaction with her potential for success as a 'great woman chef' was mentioned by almost everyone, if not everyone that posted. I am not sure what you mean by 'drawing in the weak' to support their stand... And I am not sure who, if anyone, you would see on this post who has pleaded they have been 'wounded'. In my own case, I used my life to throw down on the table in a direct and confrontational manner because it was my opinion that the debate had not really begun, in a true and passionate manner. It seemed there was little interest in posting. It seemed that no discussion was even really going to happen in any depth. I asked for women to post and talk, twice. And since nobody did, I did what I thought would work...to bring people in to talk. I threw my own life out on the table for everyone to examine. Honestly, the idea of having to do that made me feel slightly nauseous. For I am far from perfect...and there would be 'me' sitting there as example to poke at and examine in light of each of our own thoughts and feelings. But factually, the story of my life is a good thing for use in this way, because there have been many factors in it that could possibly...or possibly not...depending on the person's viewpoint....be used in examining what goes on when...sometimes...not always...a woman wants, aims for, and succeeds in some sense...in getting close to what we are talking about...as I said...not a 'great' woman chef, but merely one who got to a certain professional level. I do think our own lives, and the stories that come from them, show a bit of reality in a way that other methods of formal study, readings of sociology, and looking at numbers do not. For they are here and now, our lives, and they are each different and capable of being sculpted into what we wish.

Michael...First of all I agree with you that a squeeze of lemon in iced tea can be an excellent thing. And also agree with you that anyone who can not understand that...well...it will be their loss. But, to be serious, though...about this other thing....if it is the public that determines partially who the 'great chefs' are (man or woman) by voting with their feet....they belong in this thread saying what they feel. If it is the people who make up the industry of food and restaurant writers and critics that determine partially (and this is a huge nugget of this thing, isn't it...the media attention and acclaim?) who the 'great chefs' are (whether man or woman, again) then we would hope they would join into the discussion here to add to the general knowledge of the subject...so that we all can learn. Thanks for joining us, and please, if you do think of something, write it out....for it would be great to get closer to figuring this thing out...

emilymarie...you've been thinking about this since earlier in the thread....me too. And though this whole thing is rather exhausting, I guess we'd better get to work on finding our own answers for it...for nobody is jumping in to add ideas or information. In my opinion, all the reasons you have stated above are true in bits and pieces here and there. But I see one more reason...and I haven't quite solidified what my thoughts are on it...for though accustomed to thinking of the internal ways and means of motivation....and the realities of 'doing' in a kitchen...honestly I have never been too interested in who was winning the prizes, beyond knowing who it was that I personally felt was making a difference. So there is little material to work with in an external sort of way...in an empirical sort of way...for me, with this. But here are some thoughts....Rogov mentioned that there still are many diners who would prefer to shake a man's hand than a woman's at the end of a fine dining experience where they were chef. Boris mentioned something about 'classic implementation of a taboo' in discussing (I think it was) uniforms. And with my own eyes, I see that though this thread has attracted a pretty good amount of readers, there are few that are actually posting. And even beyond that...there are few that are even showing up as 'readers'. They are logging off to be invisible as they read this thread. ( I know this because I have spent a sickeningly huge amount of time here lately! ) Why is this? Could be that we all are such a rough crowd they don't want to come in and play... Or it could be this...taboo thing. A sort of 'messing around with this stuff could get you in trouble.... or it could be dangerous....' Well. Taboos are usually based on myths, and myths have power. And taboos are implemented so as to protect the ideas of a society as it has planned itself to work best....(or as it thinks it will work best...) How this might translate into women being noted and touted (or not) for being 'great chefs' might be worth considering....

I do believe that you have a really good career potential as a conceptual artist...

Are there wrong ways and right ways to do things in this world? Yes. Morally, ethically, and behaviorally. Does one have to aim for the top of the heap to be an important part of the overall scheme of things in the world? No. Not at all. But the point is that there are many people (and in particular many women because of our common history quite recently and still in some parts of the world as being chattel) who might be happier overall in their lives if they thought it was possible to accomplish reaching the top. One might not WANT to do this in a professional kitchen. Okay, fine. One might not want to do it anywhere. But for those who do want to try to climb the mountain, I feel that the most important thing is not to let anyone trip you up, however inadvertantly, with stories of how "This is the way things are and it is just too hard and who really would want this thing anyway...if they were a 'good' person." It is possible to be a good person and to get to the top. Once again, a fire in the belly and self-perception have a lot to do with whether one has a good chance at accomplishing their dreams. Here is an example: Compare these two statements. 1. I am a twice-divorced woman who ran away from home at fourteen and went to work to support herself because her mother was so busy attaining Ph.D's and other things in the name of Feminism that she did not have time for a child and who asked to have the child adopted or put in foster care. I've had money but have also been poor. I now have two children and am a 'single Mom' (personal note: I think these two words need to be erased from the language...with the sort of inference that they carry...) staying at home to raise the children. 2. I am a woman raising two wonderful children by herself but who thoroughly enjoys the opportunity to do so. I am lucky to be able to do this, because although I have had two past marriages, I also had a career for a number of years that was not only emotionally and intellectually fulfilling and completely fascinating...but that also paid a six-figure salary and had great benefits...allowing me to be somewhat financially independent.Because of that career, I was also able to travel quite a bit of the world and greatly enjoyed that, too. These two statements are about the same person. The first is shaded by self-doubt. It goes to the lowest factor of things. It buys into sociologic definitions of both women and the world in general. The second has the light of purpose and personal satisfaction gleaming upon it. The second is the sort of thinking that allows a person to move forward when faced with challenges. ............................................................. The statement 'it is not winning or losing that counts, it is how you played the game' brings to mind one overall thought and then several smaller ones. First...good sportsmanship and fairness is obviously something that everyone should carry within them and use. But winning or losing does count. It counts in that if a person or a group 'loses' to another person or group who do not care about good sportsmanship or fairness (guess what...they are out there in droves, and they may be smiling and acting 'nice' in daily life but their sole intent is to win without any holds barred)...then the person or group that loses will have to live by the rules of the winner. Obviously it would be better if we 'could all just get along with each other' but that has not happened in human history as of yet.... Now I bet that there are two small questions, if not more, remaining. Because when a person succeeds at something that other people in general do not attempt to do,or care to do, (or that other people may have attempted to do and not succeeded) the other people get pissed off. 'Not fair!' they cry. 'You didn't do it the way it was SUPPOSED to be done!' Do I have a diploma from any school whatsoever, which so many other people have worked hard and paid good money to get? No, I don't. But I can read books and study, and have done so. There are libraries. My first job in a kitchen was attained based on a number of test(s) by the chef, both verbal questionings and skill tests. I managed to pass those tests better than the other applicants for the job because I had studied. I had read Larousse Gastronomique from A to Z, each entry. I totally loved the idea of cooking professionally and still love the idea of it though it is not the time for it, now, in my life. Fire in the belly. I had cooked at home. And when the chef put three applicants in the kitchen....where the pastry department had been based on pulling out some cake mix and a can of frosting, then throwing the thing together and using a star tip here and there to make it 'look' professional so they could sell it as fine food pastry...of the three final applicants I got the job because I could and did make a good, 'from-scratch' Napoleon. So I can not say that I consider it 'unfair' that I entered the kitchen with less formal education if, finally, I could do the job as well or better than the other applicants. The other question I am sure that resides in your mind is 'Did she sleep with anyone to get promoted?' (Funny how that question does not come to mind with any men that move forward, huh?) And my answer is, No, I didn't. Because that would have compromised me. After all this nonsense is said and done though, sometimes I wish I had. Just for the fun of it, you know... You may not want to do this. (Aim to be a 'great woman chef' with all that infers in our culture and society). Lots of people may not want to do this. But for the few that do, subtle inferences about how they could do it or how they did do it or whether there could be a higher calling for them by being a more....'balanced' person....these inferences are moot.

Although my past seemingly has been filled with what may appear to you or to others as lack of 'brightness' I can assure you it has not been. There have been challenges. Lots of people have these in differing ways. My past and my present are actually rather joyous most of the time....because it is actually possible to be both 'happy' and contented regardless of one's external circumstances. It's all in how you look at it. But I thank you for your words and wish you satisfaction in your life too, in whichever form you personally choose it to be. And if it seems I keep harping on about 'success' in either a 'title' or in certain forms of accomplishment, it is based on what the original question was..."Why so few women are great chefs?"

Arielle....You are very sweet. It has been interesting during this thread to watch...for you seem to be a naturally born diplomat, in that you are brave enough to speak out about what you feel...but also seem to be trying to bring us all closer together in agreement.... . Listen..I have to tell you that I burst out laughing, though, at the idea of feeling badly about that past marriage. No, there were no children....and though it felt bad at the time, I have been married again since, this time to a guy 14 years younger than me (don't ask I was tired and he kept insisting) and from that marriage there are children, which are an enormous blessing and pleasure...although now, again, the marriage has ended. Why? Well....he must have had a bad case of adult ADD (attention deficit disorder) because he kept forgetting he was married to me, and lived with (yes, set up house with! ) at least two other women during the ten years we were married...(his long absences were always due to 'travel', you know...which as a good provider he was required to do for his job...!) And no...one would not have ever guessed there was anything 'wrong' with the marriage for he was quite attentive when he was home! I've always sort of viewed marriage in a way that might be considered more Gallic than Anglo-Saxon, in that I believe it needs to be at least as much of a common-sense arrangement than a mad dash into forcing oneself to believe the whole thing is 'romantic' for the next endless number of years that it will last....but...that was just a wee bit too much for me to swallow...(his behavior) when I discovered it. Yes, I am laughing...and not in pain (though certainly pain has not been nonexistent in my life) but just at the sheer oddness of life and how it can carry people different places. Bottom line, I tell myself (and my children) "If that is the worst thing that has happened to you, consider yourself lucky" and I truly mean that. There are many more terrible things happening to people around the world. But again, here we have one more argument as women, to become a bit more interested in ways of expressing ourselves that do not involve uh, 'relationships'...for relationships can fail, and if you have allowed yourself to become financially entwined, there can be some serious fallout. It sounds as if both you and your husband are working very hard right now, and it sounds really good. I remain optimistic both about the chances of two people who want to, working together in a relationship while still allowing each other room to grow and do.... As for me, I'm not too sure about wanting to try this marriage thing again...I've chosen badly twice! What I 'do' now is that I am a stay-at-home Mom. Yeah, another odd thing. Particularly without a husband! But that is what makes me most happy right now...and as the children get older and spend more time out of the house, something else will undoubtedly happen. When I left being a chef , it was because I wanted to, because it had become too much about management and not enough about food. That was inherent in the job in the place I worked which was a large international investment bank on Wall Street. They had made me a VP...and the whole thing contorted itself into something that was more corporate than being about food...which is where it had started. I don't regret a moment of it at all! Life is hopefully long for us all, and there are lots of coats we can try on...!

Just out of curiosity, NulloModo...what was the tab for the dish? Was it similar in price to the other entrees...or do you think it was put on the menu as a 'draw'?

Sinclair...I agree with much of what you have said overall in this post...but want to focus in a bit on these areas in discussion, for...well, these three paragraphs speak the strongest to me in this exact moment. We were discussing the difficulties inherent in having a family life for a woman who wanted to undertake a profession that was demanding...with the underlying inference that this could and would weigh heavily upon the decisions that were being made and that would be made in the future by women. And in response to your comment that twenty years ago it was impossible to find a stay at home husband I must disagree, for twenty years ago I had a stay at home husband, and it was partially this fact that sent me out into the workplace of the professional kitchen in the first place. I realize in this thread that my life has had many parts that do not fit with most norms. Believe me, this is nothing I ever tried for...it just sort of happened...and the only real sense I can make out of the oddness of things is this: Nothing is impossible in life. And you can not guess what is around the corner. My then-husband was fourteen years older than me, and he was a boatbuilder (America's Cup Boats) who got aggravated at what he saw as....discrimination within that world against Italian-Americans vs. WASPS. So he quit his job and decided to stay at home and design boats with the aim of eventually building one. That went on for a number of years...as he eventually fell apart in various ways....some of which had to do with the fact that he WAS a 'stay-at-home husband'. It may just be as difficult for some...most? men to be supported by their wives as it is for a woman to become a 'great' chef. I just told that story to prove the point that these things do happen. Here, today, I see many couples without children who have decided not to have children. I see couples who work two jobs and who do not strive for success but who just struggle with things, day to day. I see lots of children from two-income families going home to empty houses...but without either of the parents really trying to do anything but survive. Is this right? That is for each person to answer for themselves, I guess. The point here is that IF a woman steps out and says,' I want to do better than just average' she deserves every chance including being understood and cheered on by other people. 'Cause the other shit exists already...the sort of mess that we have in terms of 'relationships' and work. ................................. The 'neon-pink' glass ceilings. Yes. And yes to the fact that many men do not want to work for a woman. But if enough women head fearlessly into being leaders, and behave in ways that breed respect from the people that work for them, male or female, it will change. Because there is no way any guy would prefer another guy for a boss just because he was a guy...if there were a women standing next to that guy who somehow had better management and people skills and who had shown over time that the workplace would be well run, pleasant, fair, and full of opportunity to always do more. ................................................... Finally, I do not believe that the time will ever come that men do not see us as women, just as I don't believe that we can avoid seeing them as men. We are what we are...but we can each add to the workplace among other places...and whoever wants to aim for the sky rather than just standing with their feet in the mud deserves cheering on.

Caviar and champagne, bien sur. But there is no Petrossian's in Blacksburg, Virginia. (Surprised?) And the atmosphere is imperative. Ah, well. Guess a pizza with all the toppings will have to do. Wheeeeee!

But far more amusing, Miguel. And holding a knowledge of fine service that one hopes is never lost to the world through time and change....

Bravo on that good-looking yummy stuff you've made, Rachel. For the chicken side...maybe a wild rice pilaf that includes carrots/onions/mushrooms?

LKL...nice website. And whether you decide to stay on this path and pursue this thing or not...you still deserve congratulations. You are there....you are doing the work....and you have proven at the very least one important point. Boys, even in the heights of their professional powers, don't get cooties from girls (who are doing the same work standing next to them.) And it could be you will prove much much more than that....

You know...I love mangoes but they never fail to make me cranky. What is it with them? They sit there and look so enticing, promising fruit, sweet delicious fruit. A fruit that has the flavor of no other. And you want it. And then when you go to take them up on their sneaky little promise....what do they do? They hang onto that tough rubbery skin like a virgin to her blouse in a 1950's black and white movie. They mush up and sqoosh about, becoming nothing so much as an instant countertop mess-maker. You continue with all the best equipment you can muster....hundreds of dollars worth of knives and cutting boards and peelers and this and that just sitting there expectantly to help...but to what result? Half a cup of slimed-up orange gook. Pah. (Mostly though, I think the cause is the quality of the mangoes we get here in the usual grocery store. Not ripe, yes bred for travel, and somehow will never be quite right. Sigh.)

< You mean like that? Well....you know...I understand these things can be useful....but I have a vague fear of them. My forebears are from Plymouth, in England. Cold rocky place I hear. Also hear you don't give up a smilie unless you think the occassion really warrants it. These smilies must be literally forced out of me, kicking and quietly screaming (all internally, you understand). Don't want to be excessive, no, no. Will practice today, in real life. Print out a few and walk round town flashing them at people as we pass. Thank you...I feel so free now! ( ) But then again, maybe it was just the tankard of ale I scarfed down for lunch...

Darn. A good joke ruined by bad spelling. I'll try to do better next time.

Really...I agree. These photos are a form of sweet torture. Especially before breakfast. You are cruel, cruel, in your unquenchable search for knowledge, bleudauvergne.

Now there's a true Joisey and environs product for you...Taylor ham! It does not always travel out to the rest of the country. (Please don't 'boo' me, but I had almost forgotten about it...thanks for the reminder. ) P.S. Whaddya think...does Taylor Ham belong in the List Your Ham thread or not? It is called one, but it is really a sort of pork roll, isn't it?

I thought they started the day with a tot of whiskey before the oatmeal hit the table...and that contributed to their always jolly countenances. Am I wrong?