Where to get the haute-cuisine experience, cheap

[Sneakeater]

One thing that, to me, keeps Bouley Upstairs from being definitive "New Paradigm" is that the menu doesn't change. I went a few days ago, and it was the same as the first time I went last June. This is especially disturbing because some of the dishes have ingredients that we'd now consider seasonal, like the corn with the halibut. But they're serving it in the dead of winter.

But the issue I'm trying to raise here isn't seasonality. It's what I referred to above -- no doubt inaptly -- as the "improvistory" nature of the cooking that I believe is part of the "New Paradigm". When you go to Momo-Ssam, you never know what they're going to have recently come up with. Room4Dessert's menu changes periodically. As I said just above, you get the feeling that these places view their kitchens as labs. Or, to put it another way, that they're always coming up with new stuff for the joy of it.

Bouley Upstairs seems like a place that should be that way. But it isn't.

Does anyone else agree that this is an aspect of the "New Paradigm"? Does anyone disagree?

Edited March 8, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

One thing that, to me, keeps Bouley Upstairs from being definitive "New Paradigm" is that the menu doesn't change.  I went a few days ago, and it was the same as the first time I went last June.  This is especially disturbing because some of the dishes have ingredients that we'd now consider seasonal, like the corn with the halibut.  But they're serving it in the dead of winter.

But the issue I'm trying to raise here isn't seasonality.  It's what I referred to above -- no doubt inaptly -- as the "improvistory" nature of the cooking that I believe is part of the "New Paradigm".  When you go to Momo-Ssam, you never know what they're going to have recently come up with.  Room4Dessert's menu changes periodically.   As I said just above, you get the feeling that these places view their kitchens as labs.  Or, to put it another way, that they're always coming up with new stuff for the joy of it.

Bouley Upstairs seems like a place that should be that way.  But it isn't.

Does anyone else agree that this is an aspect of the "New Paradigm"?  Does anyone disagree?

←

I agree. There is also an element of whimsicality.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

The thing that's amazing to me is how fresh and delicious the peas and corn taste at Upstairs. I wonder if the restaurant bought mass quantities and did the freezing in-house. I think it might be outside the new paradigm to serve crappy ingredients that are crappy because they're out of season, but serving excellent ingredients despite the fact that they're out of season is what all the four-star restaurants do. I mean, you can go to Jean Georges and get young garlic soup 365 days a year, right?

[Nathan]

yup...JG serves the chef's signature tasting menu year round.

as for whimsicality, see David Chang in general or see Will reprising last year's menu (quarter by quarter) at Room4Dessert...except with entirely new dishes under the same label.

[rich]

The thing that's amazing to me is how fresh and delicious the peas and corn taste at Upstairs. I wonder if the restaurant bought mass quantities and did the freezing in-house. I think it might be outside the new paradigm to serve crappy ingredients that are crappy because they're out of season, but serving excellent ingredients despite the fact that they're out of season is what all the four-star restaurants do. I mean, you can go to Jean Georges and get young garlic soup 365 days a year, right?

←

But with modern transportation, the large majority of produce is always in season somewhere and therefore readily available.

I purchased some corn Friday in Brooklyn - I was told it was from South America. It looked and tasted great - thought it was the middle of summer, early fall.

Edited March 8, 2007 by rich (log)

[tupac17616]

Whether Degustation fits the pattern is an open question. I think the food, while quite good, is weaker and less haute than what's available at Momo-Ssam, Upstairs and certainly the Bar Room at the Modern. Visiting Degustation between Momo-Ssam and Upstairs really emphasized that it's operating at a lower level (I'd actually rather eat at Jack's Luxury Oyster Bar than at Degustation). And the Degustation crowd is older and more sedate -- it's much more like the Bar Room crowd than the Momo-Ssam/Upstairs crowd.

Could not agree more, FG. A friend and I went to Degustation for the first time Saturday night. We ordered the entire menu. Literally. Frankly, it just wasn't that strong. Nothing terrible (save, maybe, the lamb belly), but nothing really stood out as being great. With Momofuku Ssam just a short walk away, I'm not sure I'll ever go back to Degustation, actually. The difference in quality is, to me, that striking.

[Sneakeater]

The thing that's amazing to me is how fresh and delicious the peas and corn taste at Upstairs. I wonder if the restaurant bought mass quantities and did the freezing in-house. I think it might be outside the new paradigm to serve crappy ingredients that are crappy because they're out of season, but serving excellent ingredients despite the fact that they're out of season is what all the four-star restaurants do. I mean, you can go to Jean Georges and get young garlic soup 365 days a year, right?

←

True. But I want to emphasize that I'm NOT talking about seasonality.

I'm talking about a menu that hasn't changed at all in three quarters of a year.

I'm raising the issue whether constant culinary experimentation (again, not in the molecular sense) is a part of the "New Paradigm".

Edited March 8, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

And I'll add that it's no answer to say that Jean Georges's tasting menu rarely changes.

The point of this is that these restaurants are different from someplace like Jean Georges.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

Didn't they add the whole Italian menu at some point? Also, I had no trouble procuring a tasting menu of items at least some of which didn't seem to match the printed menu.

[Nathan]

And I'll add that it's no answer to say that Jean Georges's tasting menu rarely changes.

The point of this is that these restaurants are different from someplace like Jean Georges.

←

actually, JG has two tasting menus at all times. one is seasonal and changes all the time. the other is the "chef's tasting menu" which is a collection of greatest hits. this never changes.

[Fat Guy]

And I'll add that it's no answer to say that Jean Georges's tasting menu rarely changes.

The point of this is that these restaurants are different from someplace like Jean Georges.

←

Yes, but the difference isn't a food difference. The idea is that you can get Jean Georges-quality food without a reservation, at 9pm, for $17.

[Sneakeater]

Didn't they add the whole Italian menu at some point? Also, I had no trouble procuring a tasting menu of items at least some of which didn't seem to match the printed menu.

←

Yeah. And the Italian menu has remained unchanged for nearly a year.

And you can get a personalized tasting menu at lots of "normal" places.

[Sneakeater]

And I'll add that it's no answer to say that Jean Georges's tasting menu rarely changes.

The point of this is that these restaurants are different from someplace like Jean Georges.

←

Yes, but the difference isn't a food difference. The idea is that you can get Jean Georges-quality food without a reservation, at 9pm, for $17.

←

Again, I'm asking if there's another element. I sort of thought there was. Maybe there isn't.

[Fat Guy]

I think the term "chef-driven" was offered uptopic. I think if you take an old-school place like La Grenouille, no matter how good that food is it's not going to be new-paradigm food in any setting. But I think if the food is in the range of what's offered by Jean Georges etc. -- the more modern, chef-driven four-star places -- but being served at communal tables in the EV then it's new paradigm regardless of how often the menu changes.

[Fat Guy]

I actually thought the big hurdle in making this argument was going to be the Asian issue that Momo-Ssam presents. It's interesting that Asian influences and cuisines are now so entrenched that nobody has really focused on the East/West divide.

[Nathan]

if they didn't serve the Kentucky ham, ribeye, etc...it might pose more of question....

but yeah, Asian accents are pretty much mainstream dining today. people still call JG's cooking French....

[Sneakeater]

Reading through tupac's review of Desgustation in that restaurant's dedicated thread made me think of one other thing.

I agree with him and Fat Guy and everybody else that Degustation does not attain the level of quality that Momo-Ssam or Room 4 Dessert or Bouley Upstairs do. But, other issues notwithstanding, it can't be a criterion for inclusion in the "New Paradigm" that a restaurant be great. If the "New Paradigm" has any validity as a category, it has to allow inclusion of places that aren't as good as others.

[Sneakeater]

Reading through tupac's review of Desgustation in that restaurant's dedicated thread made me think of one other thing.

I agree with him and Fat Guy and everybody else that Degustation does not attain the level of quality that Momo-Ssam or Room 4 Dessert or Bouley Upstairs do. But, other issues aside, it can't be a criterion for inclusion in the "New Paradigm" that a restaurant be great. If the "New Paradigm" has any validity as a category, it has to allow inclusion of places that aren't as good as others.

[Fat Guy]

And there are certainly a few new paradigm dishes on the menu. You could put together a tightly focused tasting that could pass muster: croquettas, tortilla, the other egg dish, stuffed squid, cheese plate.

[Sneakeater]

So I guess what you're saying is that the balance at Degustation doesn't tilt enough toward haute?

Cuz we all agree that one of the things that makes Bouley Upstairs and Momo-Ssam "New Paradigm" is the mix of haute and bas.

Whereas the thinking seems to be that places like The Bar Room at The Modern and Degustation don't quite make it cuz they don't tilt haute enough.

Maybe the point is that Bouley Upstairs and Momo-Ssam really mix high and low, whereas Degustation and The Bar Room are more mixtures of high and middle-brow? And with the emphasis more on the middle-brow than on the high?

Edited March 8, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

I wouldn't characterize the croquettas or cheese plate at Degustation as haute. They're just really good. I think the mixture of high and low holds. It holds at Bar Room too, especially given that the tarte flambee is a signature.

I do think Degustation is simply not as good as the others. Of the list Momo-Ssam, R4D, Upstairs, Bar Room and Degustation, Degustation is the least good. Which isn't to say it's bad.

But, as Sneakeater says, lack of excellence alone isn't necessarily a disqualifying trait. I think for me the issue with several of the items we tried at Degustation is that they were lazy. There was nothing about them that indicated any sort of commitment to excellence. Compare Momo-Ssam's country hams to Degustation's plancha shrimp/prawns/cigalas. Neither is particularly haute, however the country hams at Momo-Ssam represent superior sourcing and care. All three kinds of crustacean at Degustation feel like utterly unremarkable lazy afterthoughts, not great, not good value. Then there's the matter of the crowd. The Degustation/Jewel Bako crowd just doesn't seem to fit with Momo-Ssam, Upstairs and R4D.

This is the Bar Room's weakness. It also has a relatively stuffy, older crowd. It doesn't meet the crowd or vibe criteria all that well. But the food is staunchly new paradigm, I think.

So, as I was saying, you've got a number of factors and some restaurants are stronger on some than others. I'm willing to accept Bar Room and Degustation as being on the dartboard, but neither is a bullseye.

[tupac17616]

If the "New Paradigm" has any validity as a category, it has to allow inclusion of places that aren't as good as others.

Absolutely

[alwang]

This weekend, I managed to grab meals at a couple of the places mentioned in this discussion for the first time, so I thought I'd add my thoughts on the experience. I apologize in advance for being long-winded.

I had dinner at Upstairs at Bouley on Friday night, and I loved the concept of marrying a casual eatery with a high-end bakery and market. I found the dining room itself cozy and warm, and would be curious to find out if they make good use of the open-kitchen "cooking class" area. We sat at the sushi bar and started with the raw oysters, which came with three sauces: a miso-yuzu sauce which was excellent, a rasberry vinagrette with pink peppercorns which looked pretty but tasted flat (I didn't taste any contribution from the peppercorns), and a tomato coulis which was okay, but much better when I juiced it up with some fresh wasabi that I added on my own. Curiously, the plate came with no implements to apply any of the sauces (we didn't have spoons or forks at our seats, only chopsticks): I don't know if they were expecting us to dip the oysters in the sauce, but to me, losing the liquid from the shell would have been a waste of a perfectly good raw oyster. All in all, pretty average. We then ordered a couple of pieces of sushi, asking the chef's recommendation. It became clear from both the conversation and watching the subsequent preparation that this is not a place I'd go for sushi: they weren't particularly willing to discuss what they thought was fresh and tasty, and the craftsmanship was pretty mediocre.

For "main" dishes, my girlfriend ordered the lobster, and I ordered a couple of dishes from the japanese menu. I was prepared for the lobster to be small, but I was surprised to find it overcooked, and not particularly enjoyable. The accompanying puree (apples, parsnips, something else?) was nice, but certainly not "haute", and not paradigm-shifting. The two japanese dishes, IMO, were the best thing we ordered: tender steamed snapper resting in a little pool of flavorful broth, and a cube of succulent pork belly alongside bamboo and a potato puree. These were well executed dishes, but to my mind, they didn't stray too far from conventional Japanese flavors or ingredients, and the presentation, while attractive, was not what I'd call "haute".

All in all, I would consider the meal enjoyable, but not particularly memorable. I certainly didn't feel that the food or environment was different from any number of small, ambitious restaurants: I'm used to the Philly dining scene, where I could name any number of excellent byobs that combine a casual atmosphere with quality ingredients and contemporary cooking. Yes, Upstairs' menu spanned cuisines, but I didn't get a sense that the diversity was really influencing the personality of the restaurant, and for the most part, the dishes didn't blend those influences in any really interesting ways. Finally, I didn't find Upstairs a particularly good value: yes, there's a lot of "entrees" <$20, but they'd mostly be better described as "small plates". If we're going to start listing tapas bars in the new paradigm, I think we're going to have a problem.

Saturday night, we dropped into Ssam Bar, and were surprised to get seated after a short wait. Honestly, my expectations were low: partly because of my Upstairs experience, partly because I had been to Ssam Bar before during the day, and while I enjoyed my big, fat, Korean burrito, I didn't find it quite worth the hype. Well, after my meal this weekend, I'm sold.

First of all, at least for now, the staff is outstanding. Casual, yet attentive and really well-informed about the food. This, to me, is as much of a new paradigm as the food. Ssam Bar's trained and hired the sort of people that food geeks respond to: someone to whom you can freely ask questions, and expect a knowledgeable and enthusiastic reply. I contrast this with our waiter at Upstairs, who had no idea whatsoever about any of the Japanese dishes on the menu, and responded to my questions with, "just try it".

We didn't order a lot of food, but it turned out to be enough. We started with the brussels sprouts, which were completely fantastic. The Southeast Asian flavors were a perfect and unexpected pairing with the sprouts, and frying them till they were flaky and crispy was genius. Completely craveable. The presentation was pretty casual: I had no problem with that, but if by the title of this topic we're looking for "haute" on the cheap, this dish was not that.

The chawanmushi might be Exhibit A of what we're talking about here: a pretty simple japanese dish elevated to a whole different level with luxurious ingredients like truffle oil. More importantly, it was completely delicious, and one of the best things I've eaten in a long time. I felt a little ridiculous paying $23 for a bowl of egg custard, but the experience was truly memorable.

The rice cakes were pretty good, and once again showed some imagination, blending korean flavors with more herbal thai flavors, and with some pretty tasty pork sausage. I thought it was a little too salty (a common theme with most of the dishes I've had at Ssam Bar), and there wasn't nearly enough rice cakes for the amount of sausage, but overall, it was a nice dish. Also pretty rustic in presentation.

Putting these dishes together along with the service, I don't think I've had a meal before quite like this one. I think trying to call it haute on the cheap isn't quite on the mark: what's different about what David Chang is targeting is that he's going after the foodies, not the expense account diners that most haute cuisine restaurants are selling to. He's created an environment that is catering to the discovery and enjoyment of new tastes and ingredients, and he's stripped out everything that does not support that discovery. The final bill was not cheap, but I thought it was justified and the portions were reasonable.

I'll add another partial data point: Sunday night we went out to Kyotofu, a little dessert bar in Clinton. It hasn't been mentioned in this thread, but I bring it up because though I haven't been to Room4Dessert, it would seem the two dessert bars share some traits. Both are casual, dessert-only places with open kitchens and modern sensibilities. In Kyotofu's case, they're modern interpetations of more traditional Japanese desserts like sweet tofu. The desserts are tasty, the presentations are gorgeous, but I did not get the sense that this was something on the same wavelength as Ssam Bar. I'd be curious to hear from people who've been to both Kyotofu and R4D why one might be considered "New Paradigm" and not the other. (Doesn't seem like it would be the molecular gastronomy at R4D, since none of the other restaurants discussed on this thread really highlight those techniques).

In summary, I don't know if we're witnessing a trend, but if so, it feels like this trend may have only one member. However, that one member is doing some really exciting things around food right now, and we food geeks should be excited about the possibility that with Ssam Bar's popularity, this sort of dining experience might catch on.

[Nathan]

frankly, the Japanese portion of the menu at Bouley Upstairs is not what we're talking about.

as for Room4Dessert...Goldfarb is pretty solidly in the "molecular" camp (indeed, he any Wylie were just presenting (as the only Americans) at the big "molecular" food conference in Milan)

[Sneakeater]

I think trying to call it haute on the cheap isn't quite on the mark: what's different about what David Chang is targeting is that he's going after the foodies, not the expense account diners that most haute cuisine restaurants are selling to.  He's created an environment that is catering to the discovery and enjoyment of new tastes and ingredients, and he's stripped out everything that does not support that discovery.

←

I think alwang has nailed it.