The Sourdough Starter Topic

[rickster]

If this is for home baking, maintaining 2-3 quarts per starter seems like a lot. Maybe you could cut down the amount to save some flour, effort and time?

[jackal10]

1. An immersion blender will not hurt your starters

2. Keep them in the fridge and refresh them only the day before you bake. Much less work.

[fooey]

I killed her.

Matildé, the white sourdough starter, is on her death bed.

Immersion blender = bad idea.

She looks miserable, like a milkshake, almost no bubbles to speak of, no umph, no oompa, no happiness.

It could be post-traumatic stress, depression, but I think she's done for.

Verdict: immersion blender bad.

-

Ja, rickster, I have too much going at once.

[slkinsey]

fooey, there is no reason whatsoever to keep that much starter. All the starter is for is perpetuating the culture. Just keep a small amount of starter (say, 100 grams of each) and use that starter to inoculate larger amounts of poolish when you need to "make more starter" for a batch of sourdough.

It is highly unlikely that using an immersion blender did anything bad to your sourdough starter culture. How are you refreshing the starter? Sourdough starters should be fed by high dilution for the best healthy growth characteristics. This is the opposite of what most home bakers do. What it means is that, if you are keeping 100 grams of sourdough starter, when you feed the starter you should discard all of it except for around 10 grams, and then feed that with 50 grams each of flour and water.

Nancy Silverton, while being a talented commercial baker, is notorious among sourdough aficionados for perpetuating a lot of misinformation about sourdough microbiology, for recommending starter feeding practices that are highly impractical for the home baker and anyway not optimal for culture health, and for recommending that home bakers maintain a far larger volume of culture than is needed or practical.

Edited August 16, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[jackal10]

Amen Sam

Leave it be in a warm place. It will recover

[fooey]

fooey, there is no reason whatsoever to keep that much starter.

It's reasonable for me, as I make 10 to 20 loaves some weekends.

It is highly unlikely that using an immersion blender did anything bad to your sourdough starter culture.

You should see it and you'd rethink that. She was "very" not happy this morning. I reduced her to about 1 cup and am rebuilding. I will never use an immersion blender again.

How are you refreshing the starter?  Sourdough starters should be fed by high dilution for the best healthy growth characteristics.  This is the opposite of what most home bakers do. What it means is that, if you are keeping 100 grams of sourdough starter, when you feed the starter you should discard all of it except for around 10 grams, and then feed that with 50 grams each of flour and water.

If I didn't need to volume of starter I do, that would be practical. I need volumes and so I make it as such. The 10s:50f:50w method is interesting. Mine is more 50s:25f:25w. I'll create one as such and see how it comes out.

Nancy Silverton, while being a talented commercial baker, is notorious among sourdough aficionados for perpetuating a lot of misinformation about sourdough microbiology

I've exhausted what energy I have defending Nancy Silverton on this topic, so I'll be brief: Her feeding method is for initial starter creation. The only mistake she made in her text is in failing to say, "Now that your starter is active and strong, this is what you have to do to perpetuate it." Hordes of people, who can't/couldn't read between the lines, make/made what I think is an asinine assumption that one must feed the starter in volume in perpetuity, which is just ridiculous. Yes, she made that error in her text, but that's no reason to extend it to "perpetuating a lot of misinformation about sourdough microbiology".

[fooey]

Amen Sam

Leave it be in a warm place. It will recover

←

Recover yes, but that's thing: the immersion blender damaged it badly. I didn't want to recover it. It was happy snappy when I was using a fork.

The answer to my original question is: An immersion blender will damage your starter.

[dougal]

...

Recover yes, but that's thing: the immersion blender damaged it badly. I didn't want to recover it. It was happy snappy when I was using a fork.

The answer to my original question is: An immersion blender will damage your starter.

←

Really, I doubt that -- BUT -- I think I understand your perception of 'damage'.

I think you are working by volume.

This is not the best of ideas, if you are dealing with frothy starter.

Sure, the blender flattened the foam, so you think you've got less.

But actually, you've just got less trapped CO2.

Because a lot of bubbles got burst (and maybe some gluten got chopped).

Its no big deal, at least, not until you want to measure some out.

A better habit is to ALWAYS work by weight. (Its the only hope of accuracy with variably foamy starter.)

[skipper10]

(Host's Note: This discussion was split off from the Will Immersion Blender Hurt My Sourdough Starters? topic)

I have three starters going at once: white, wheat, and rye (all Nancy Silverton's, because they work really well for me).

Problem: It's becoming quite the task to keep up with feeding three at a time, but the only really effort is the stirring flour and water at feeding time.

Quantity: Never really more than 2-3 quarts of each.

Question: Will I hurt the starters by using an immersion blender (on low) to incorporate flour and water at feeding time?

Yes, yes, you can go ahead and laugh at my indolence.

←

I made Nancy Silverton's sourdough starter following instructions published in Washington Post Food section, I believe it was in 1993, when Julia's "Cooking with Master Chefs" came out. I love the bread it produces, people who taste it for the first time inevitably ask me for the name of the bakery I bought it from, they say that this is the best bread they have eaten in the States.

I no longer keep the starter in the fridge, not enough space, and now that the kids are out of the house I don't bake bread as much or as often.

This is what I do: feed the starter as instructed three times, I no longer follow the time schedule, by now I know when it is ready for the next feeding or baking. It no longer takes three days in my kitchen either, it is much faster in the summer and slower in the winter as we tend to keep house temperature on "sweater warm." Starter tells me when it is ready to be used, not the clock.

After I bake the bread, I measure out my leftover starter into 18 oz portions and freeze them either in plastic containers or freezer bags. (Yes, I date them and use older ones first.) Before the next baking I defrost my frozen starter in the fridge and proceed with feedings. I never have leftover starter as I try to use as much as I can, save for the next batch and often share with foodie friends.

I am sooooooo envious that you are able to work all that dough by hand. It must be so rewarding. Good luck with your baking. skipper

Edited August 17, 2009 by Chris Hennes (log)

[slkinsey]

The 10s:50f:50w method is interesting. Mine is more 50s:25f:25w. I'll create one as such and see how it comes out.

On a microbiological basis, we know that your feeding process (1:1 refreshment) is very bad for the health and vitality of the culture, and likely to result in the culture coming to be taken over by less desirable microorganisms. I should hasten to point out that this is not opinion or speculation -- this has been determined by scientific research. For example, in a German study no Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis was found in cultures refreshed at 50%.

Much better for the health and vitality of a culture for the kind of sourdough bread we would like to make is something like 1:5 refreshment. Plenty of people (myself included) simply leave whatever starter remains clinging to the inside of the jar when all the starter is taken out, and fill the rest with new flour and water. This is great for the health, vitality and propagation of the culture.

[devlin]

fooey, there is no reason whatsoever to keep that much starter.

It's reasonable for me, as I make 10 to 20 loaves some weekends.

←

I've been following this a bit but am still a little fuzzy about how much starter you keep on hand as a matter of course. Even if you bake 10-20 loaves some weekends, you wouldn't need to keep so much starter all the time. When I'm baking, I bake substantially more than 10-20 loaves during the week, but I keep only a cup of starter (culture) going all the time (feeding once a day). I then build from that starter/culture over the course of three or so days to get the volume/weight I need for any given bake.

But I'm not clear what you mean when you say you keep two to three quarts starter going of each starter. If you're making only 10-20 loaves a week, maintaining 2-3 quarts of starter all the time is a waste of time, flour and water.

[slkinsey]

Exactly. The only purpose of the "storage starter" should be to perpetuate and preserve the culture. And there is no reason that maintaining as little as a cup of storage starter should be limiting. You just have to change your paradigm for thinking about how the starter works. Think of the storage starter like a "packet of sourdough yeast" and use it that way. With that understanding, you can see how it is possible to use the storage starter to inoculate larger volumes of dough or batter and "make as much starter as you need" only when you need it.

For example: Let's say you're making 30 boules in a day, and each boule contains 1 pound of flour. That means you're using 30 pounds of flour. Okay, so let's say that your recipe calls for 20% of the flour to come from the starter. That's 6 pounds of flour. No problem. Mix up 6 pounds of flour with the amount of water you want to use (depending on whether you want to use a sponge or "chef" technique), scoop the 1 cup of starter out of your jar and mix that in. Put more flour and water into the storage jar and mix it together with the little bits of "old starter" stuck to the sides. Not only is this small amount of "old starter" sufficient to perpetuate the culture, but these are optimum growth conditions. So long as the starter is healthy and active, your 6 pounds-of-flour sponge or chef should be fully active within 8 to 12 hours (i.e., overnight). Now you can bake your 30 boules. If you want to get fancy, you could "build" the sponge by mixing the cup of starter first with 2 pounds of flour, letting that come fully active, then mixing in the remaining 4 pounds of flour, letting that come fully active, then making your main dough. I have not found this to be necessary, however. Either way, this is in no way more burdensome than maintaining a quart each of three different starters, and is likely to result in a healthier, more stable and active starter culture.

[weinoo]

I've used just the method Sam explains for quite some time now...works perfectly and I've only got a little jar of starter in my fridge.

[fooey]

Really, I doubt that -- BUT -- I think I understand your perception of 'damage'.

Agreed.

It basically looked like a milkshake.

When I fed her, she didn't even eat (or at least that's my perception).

Usually she starts bubbling away and, in a few hours, is so happy she's making herself drunk with alcohol production.

I poured her all out minus 1 cup and rebuilt yesterday and she's back to her happy self.

I don't know what the immersion blender did exactly (a friend said I incorporated too much oxygen and that's bad?), but I didn't like it and won't do it again.

FWIW, the immersion blender did NOT speed up the process.

It took longer, both the mixing and the cleaning.

And I'm an artisan baker, right?

What was I thinking re: using a machine.

Blasphemy!

[fooey]

But I'm not clear what you mean when you say you keep two to three quarts starter going of each starter. If you're making only 10-20 loaves a week, maintaining 2-3 quarts of starter all the time is a waste of time, flour and water.

←

Let's take the recipe for Olive Bread, which requires 6.25 oz of white starter per (1lb 14 oz) loaf.

To make 10 loaves, I use 62.5 oz of white starter, or ~2 quarts.

I'm not maintaining that much all the time, but I'm maintaining enough of each such that I grow tired of feeding them all the time.

If I was wasting a lot of it, I would change my method, but I'm not, so I just maintain it as I do.

[fooey]

Exactly.  The only purpose of the "storage starter" should be to perpetuate and preserve the culture.

I understand. It sounds like I'm feeding my starters far too much "food".

Intuitively, I think that if I start with a small ratio of starter:flour, then it'll take that much longer to come to strength.

It's sounds like a few people here are saying that's not the case.

Interesting!

[fooey]

The 10s:50f:50w method is interesting. Mine is more 50s:25f:25w. I'll create one as such and see how it comes out.

On a microbiological basis, we know that your feeding process (1:1 refreshment) is very bad for the health and vitality of the culture, and likely to result in the culture coming to be taken over by less desirable microorganisms. I should hasten to point out that this is not opinion or speculation -- this has been determined by scientific research. For example, in a German study no Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis[i/] was found in cultures refreshed at 50%.

Much better for the health and vitality of a culture for the kind of sourdough bread we would like to make is something like 1:5 refreshment. Plenty of people (myself included) simply leave whatever starter remains clinging to the inside of the jar when all the starter is taken out, and fill the rest with new flour and water. This is great for the health, vitality and propagation of the culture.

←

Thank you for this. Would you have more information on this study?

I have to say I've been surprised by just how little starter is needed to regenerate volumes.

If a ratio is healthier, that's even more interesting.

If it produces a starter that leavens a loaf in 7-8 hours instead of 3-4, then that will be a problem.

I mean, healthier is great, but how does health of the starter contribute to leavening strength, flavour.

The refreshment I use, again, is Silverton's and it just makes some of the best bread I can turn out.

[fooey]

I made Nancy Silverton's sourdough starter following instructions published in Washington Post Food section, I believe it was in 1993, when  Julia's "Cooking with Master Chefs" came out.  I love the bread it produces, people who taste it for the first time inevitably ask me for the name of the bakery I bought it from, they say that this is the best bread they have eaten in the States.

I no longer keep the starter in the fridge, not enough space, and now that the kids are out of the house I don't bake bread  as much or as often. 

This is what I do:  feed the starter as instructed three times, I no longer follow the time schedule, by now I know when it is ready for the next feeding or baking.  It no longer takes three days in my kitchen either, it is much faster in the summer and slower in the winter as we tend to keep house temperature on "sweater warm."  Starter tells me when it is ready to be used, not the clock.

After I bake the bread, I measure out my leftover starter into 18 oz portions and freeze them either in plastic containers or freezer bags. (Yes, I date them and use older ones first.) Before  the next baking I defrost  my frozen starter in the fridge and proceed with feedings.  I never have leftover starter as I try to use as much as I can, save for the next batch and often share with foodie friends. 

I am sooooooo envious  that you are able to work all that dough by hand.  It must be so rewarding.  Good luck with your baking. skipper

←

I just bought an industrial mixer. It's just too much effort to do it by hand.

When I make just a couple of trial loaves, I always do it by hand (did so last night with the Red Pepper Scallion recipe).

There's no match for learning a new dough than the tactile.

Silverton's recipes are spectacular. I never understand why people give her such grief over her techniques when the results are just so astounding.

Her Olive Bread is good enough to make a person cry!

Her Walnut Bread is so extraordinary that I can sell them for $15 a loaf and people come back for more.

Edited August 17, 2009 by fooey (log)

[skipper10]

Silverton's recipes are spectacular. I never understand why people give her such grief over her techniques when the results are just so astounding.

←

I totally agree. I tried a number of other sourdough recipes, they come out pretty good, but never as good as from my Nancy Silverton's starter. Lately, instead of dividing the dough in half I started baking large loafs, they look cool and disappear with the same speed as the smaller loaves.

Is there any chance of your posting pictures of your bread? skipper

[fooey]

Is there any chance of your posting pictures of your bread?  skipper

Sure, thanks for asking. These are from my Flickr photostream.

All except the torpedoes are from Nancy Silverton formulas.

Sunflower Bread (Olive Bread derivative)

Fig Anise Bread

Torpedo Loaves with Biga Naturelle (my recipe, not Nancy's)

Sunflower Bread (Olive Bread derivative)

Sunflower Bread (Olive Bread derivative)

Sunflower Bread (Olive Bread derivative)

Sunflower Bread (Olive Bread derivative)

Walnut Bread

Walnut Bread

Collection of "Mission Fig, Almond, Anise" and "Medjool Date, Cashew, Molasses" Breads

Making the "Mission Fig, Almond, Anise" and "Medjool Date, Cashew, Molasses" Breads by Hand

Fig Anise Bread

Walnut Breads

[skipper10]

fooey, you are making me salivate, I am not allowed to indulge in bread for a while. Really great pictures and interesting selection. May I ask you what kind of oven you have and what method you use for producing steam? There are so many conflicting opinions and directions for steaming the oven... skipper

[slkinsey]

The 10s:50f:50w method is interesting. Mine is more 50s:25f:25w. I'll create one as such and see how it comes out.

On a microbiological basis, we know that your feeding process (1:1 refreshment) is very bad for the health and vitality of the culture, and likely to result in the culture coming to be taken over by less desirable microorganisms. I should hasten to point out that this is not opinion or speculation -- this has been determined by scientific research. For example, in a German study no Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis was found in cultures refreshed at 50%.

Much better for the health and vitality of a culture for the kind of sourdough bread we would like to make is something like 1:5 refreshment. Plenty of people (myself included) simply leave whatever starter remains clinging to the inside of the jar when all the starter is taken out, and fill the rest with new flour and water. This is great for the health, vitality and propagation of the culture.

Thank you for this. Would you have more information on this study?

Back in the old Usenet days, in rec.fooc.sourdough we got some good information from a German scientist studying the microbiology and other aspects of sourdoughs. For example, see here for some of this information.

Some pertinent quotes:

"The optimum pH for lactobacilli is 5.0 - 5.5 (which is the initial pH of a sourdough with 5 - 20% inoculum) . . ." ["inoculum" means "the amount of old starter you mix with the new flour"]

This means that you get optimum growth conditions for the lactobacilli if the starter is refreshed with a <20% inoculum. If you keep your starter at equal weights of flour and water, a 5% inoculum would mean keeping 5 grams of "old starter" and mixing that with 50 grams each of water and flour every time you feed.

". . . in doughs that are continuously operated with a high inoculum (more than about 30%), you'll find more yeasts and fewer lactobacilli. Eventually, the lactobacilli flora may change, with more acid tolerant lactobacilli (e.g. L. pontis) prevailing. . . [in a sourdough culture we studied that] is operated with a 50% inoculum, the pH is never above 4.1 - 4.3, and no L. sanfranciscensis is found in those doughs. . ."

This tells is that it is unadvisable to feed the starter regularly with a >30% inoculum, and very bad to feed the starter regularly with a >50% inoculum.

I have to say I've been surprised by just how little starter is needed to regenerate volumes.

If a ratio is healthier, that's even more interesting.

Keep in mind that one gram of active starter contains between 10,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 sourdough microorganizms -- far more than will be found in 50 or 100 grams of new flour-and-water. So you don't have to worry about the culture being "taken over" by some invading microorganisms by feeding with a very small inoculum. On the contrary, you are creating optimal growth conditions for the culture microorganisms.

If it produces a starter that leavens a loaf in 7-8 hours instead of 3-4, then that will be a problem.

I mean, healthier is great, but how does health of the starter contribute to leavening strength, flavour.

The healthier the starter culture is, the more active the sourdough microorganisms are. More active microorganisms equal faster leavening, faster activity, more souring, etc.

The refreshment I use, again, is Silverton's and it just makes some of the best bread I can turn out.

Silverton's recipes are good (although, as a sourdough purist I wish she didn't have so many "hybrid doughs" that are boosted with commercial yeast). My only criticisms are that she perpetuates mythology about sourdough microorganisms that are known to be untrue, and that her starter feeding instructions and volumes are unduly burdensome for the home baker. Using the "storage culture" technique I outlined above actually offers you much more flexibility. One thing you will note is that different bakers and different recipe writers all seem to have a different starter formula. Some of them call for a stiff "chef" starter, some of them call for a thin "poolish" starter, some of them call for a very large inoculum in the final dough, some of them call for a small inoculum, etc. If you're locked into keeping 3 quarts of "Nancy Silverton Starter" going at all times, then you are effectively prevented from making any sourdough recipe by another writer who uses a different starter formula. Using the "storage starter" technique, not only are you freed from the time-consuming and wasteful practice of keeping 3 quarts of starter going all the time, but you can make up anyone's starter recipe by simply whipping up a batch of their starter sponge, chef, etc.. inoculating it with a bit of your starter culture, and then letting the new batch of "so-and-so's starter" come active.

Edited August 17, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[fooey]

fooey, you are making me salivate, I am not allowed to indulge in bread for a while.  Really great pictures and interesting selection.  May I ask you what kind of oven you have and  what method you use for producing steam?  There are so many conflicting opinions and directions for steaming the oven... skipper

←

Ha ha. Thanks!

For steam, I've used Peter Reinhart's setup from his book, Crust and Crumb, ever since I started baking 8 years ago.

Just scroll to page 25 and read through page 27, starting at subsection "Oven Techniques" on page 25 here.

He uses a bottle sprayer, but I go a bit further and use a pressurized garden sprayer, like so:

[fooey]

My only criticisms are that she perpetuates mythology about sourdough microorganisms that are known to be untrue.

I think I'm still missing this: what are the untruths?

I see differences of opinion, but untruths? Mythology?

I defend against this because I have 5 years and 1000 loaves launched by these mythological untruths.

I think this an opinion, and opinions are fine, but they're not fact.

As for burden to home baker, I don't agree.

It's a burden to me because I'm juggling 3 starters in volume. I make volumes of bread and need volumes.

Once Nancy's starters are active, they can be perpetuated as you've said above.

I'm trying your 1:5 now and it's coming along nicely. Is it better? I don't know.

I appreciate the other comments. Do you have a source link to the study or studies that from which you quote? To me, yesterday's science is as valuable as mythology. Who knows when, where, how this study was conducted? Who's to say that a strain of yeast from San Francisco has anything to say about yeasts in Denver, for example?

You're right about not locking yourself in with this or that process. I've found that once you have a strong starter, you can almost use them interchangeably if you're careful about ratios, math, etc. You can even use it slapdash and, if in enough quantity, successful bread will result, albeit not to the precision intended by the formula writer.

And I dare say that, if my grandmother were alive to read this, she's laugh at our ridiculousness. Her starter lived outside on the porch through every season. It's probably still alive somewhere!

I love Nancy's hybrid doughs, but guess what? I never use the commercial yeast, especially the fresh cake yeast, which is becoming increasingly difficult to find. Do I have to wait longer? Yes, but bread for me is patience, and the results are worth the wait. I have two loaves of her hybrid "Red Pepper Scallion" baking in the oven right now. The smell is intoxicating, the color beautiful, the crumb gorgeous!

[Chris Hennes]

(Host's Note: The general discussion on care and feeding of sourdough starters has been moved over to the Sourdough Starter - Hows, Whys, Whats topic)