Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 1)

[rooftop1000]

So we seem to be on a sourdough bread kick. Anyone doing anything else with the starter??

Todays experiment was sourdough pancakes. All I can really say is they were good enough to eat, no better no worse.

The recipe came from here...

http://www.cowboyshowcase.com/sourdough.ht...ough%20pancakes

"regular" pancake recipe....This batter came out really thick, I should have switched to Waffle mode but instead I added milk and over worked it somewhat

I am currently waiting on some doughnut dough that I made up as I went and didnt measure ...Well it does have 1 cup of starter and 2 eggs - and some Sugar, Butter, Milk, Cinn, Salt, and enough flour to make a really soft dough

We shall see soon enough...I am sure rolled in sugar they will be quite tasty

tracey

[chiantiglace]

I've often wanted to take sour dough to another level, just never took the time really.

What about sour dough funnel cake for savory applications?

I wonder if you can make a sour dough pie dough by reducing all the water and 1/3 of the flour.

Sour dough pate a choux?

[Just loafing]

I've seen recipes for sourdough everything from pancakes to chocolate cake and cookies. We make sourdough banana bread with ginger, but no dairy, which comes out very well. An added bonus is that the dough keeps very well in the cooler ... obviously the starter keeps on working because the rise is better after a couple of days. Susan

[Shalmanese]

I've been wanting to make a sourdough pizza for a while now. Good idea/Bad idea?

[bethesdabakers]

My sourdough pizza dough recipe is lurking here.

I also add a whack to wheat tortilla dough and into batters.

Best wishes,

Mick

[Desiderio]

Ok 4th attempt , this time with Jackal formula ( my starter if from Hamelman book , its a rye one).

Did the preferment , that went up and active pretty fast, then mixing ,then on the oiled surface left it there covered,after 40 mins folding , covered again for about the same time then another folding, got my basket with floured cloth put the dough in it ( was still kinda sticky at this point ) covered with oiled seran covered and put it in the fridge overnight.

Next day at 460 ( I have gas oven ) stone in the oven to get hot , put some steam on the bottom peel the bread from a cutting board with corn meal, right into the stone, no problem peeling no sticking since was right out of the fridge.

Kept steaming ,when the crust got color moved the steam out and left the oven little bit open with a spoon to finish .

Umm I dont know it had enourmous oven spring ( probably the highest I got since now ), Still no holes in the crumb , and I am little disappointed .Will see the taste , smell was very good .

Ok I have tested it and its great its awesome, the crust its cruncky and nice and think ( like I wanted) the bread its light and the amount of holes inside its pretty good and really really remainds me of the italian rustic pagnotta I miss so much!!

Wee I am very pleased this time , Thank you guys for all the tips and suggestion ( doesnt end here though still keep experimenting )

Thank you Jackal for you great formula and help

Edited May 7, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

[glennbech]

Nice work! Was it a rye bread or just the starter? Looks like a BIG loaf you've got there .-) I liked the looks of your crumb!

Here is New Question for all you bread bakers that at the same time are owners of Dan lepard's book "The handmade loaf";

In the beginning of the book there is a description on how to shape either a baton, stick or ball. I don't get his description on how to form a "ball", it says something about dragging the doigh left to right while rotating it clockwise.

Can anyone provide a better explanation of this teqhnique?

Edited May 7, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[glennbech]

Another Q ;

What's the fuss about a baking stone anyway? I havn't tried this yet, but how about smacking the proven loaf directly at the floor of the electric oven (With a baking parchment ofcoursr)? If it's heated to 230c, the floor of the oven should have the same temperature right ? Talk about direct contact with the heatsource! :-)

I might have to lift it up after a while to avoid a black bottom'ed bread though.....

Did anyone try this ?

[Desiderio]

Nice work! Was it a rye bread or just the starter? Looks like a BIG loaf you've got there .-) I liked the looks of your crumb!

Here is New Question for all you bread bakers that at the same time are owners of Dan lepard's book "The handmade loaf";

In the beginning of the book there is a description on how to shape either a baton, stick or ball. I don't get his description on how to form a "ball", it says something about dragging the doigh left to right while rotating it clockwise.

Can anyone provide a better explanation of this teqhnique?

←

Only the starter is rye , the bread is white ,and yes hehe its a huge loaf , the one I am try to reproduce from my home country is very big probably double the size of mine ,hehe I am not going to make one that size my stone isnt that big .

About the stone I have to tell you that since I bought it and use it for my bread the results are much better ,the heat is distribuited more evenly ( spelling sorry )

the crust seems to have improved since I am using the stone as well ,I have gas oven so I dont know about electric at this poin , even thought I use them inthe past,but the difference is nice and noticeable.I asked Jackal about it , if that would have helped me and he replyed yes becuase the reasons above.

I think next time want to try same formula but shaping baguettes hehe need to make it hard P.

[jackal10]

First shape the ball: flatten the dough into a round, then pick the one point on the edge furthest from you and fold it to the centre, rotate the dough by 45 degrees and repeat 8 times. Turn it over.

After a while, and a few hunderd loaves the action gets automatic, and you see bakers absentmindedly doing this to any piece of dough.

To consolidate it and make it even you need the action that Dan shows.

Its easiest to explain it in bits

Take the ball of dough and push it along the table (or whatever your work surface is) using only one hand flat on one side. You'll see it sort of bulge out the other side as you push, and it rolls. That is the action. The friction against the work surface tightens the dough.

The other hand is just to guide it. Before it falls off the edge pick it up and move it back to where you started. Repeat and it should be a tight ball.

A production baker can average about 100 loaves an hour.

Edited May 7, 2006 by jackal10 (log)

[Desiderio]

Ahh jack is nice to see you back in the discussion ( I immagine at this point you are saturated with all these questions about bread )

I wanted to thank you so much for all the help ,the patience and knowledge you are sharing with us , making it easy for newbies

Your formula, that I used ( was posted on the other thread about bread ), its incredible , I finally got the type of bread that I wanted ,I also used you technique to refrigerated the dough and it makes everything much easier,time wise and shaping peeling wise .

Thank you again

Sincerly

Edited May 8, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

[glennbech]

Thanks for stepping in with a different explanation jack. I'l maybe have my wife photograph me while make an atempt.

Edited May 8, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[jackal10]

Dan Lepard demonstrating the technique. Pictures by Tepee

[glennbech]

So If I got this right.....

The first picture is the start position. The dough ball is then "pushed" left to right (from dan's point of view), with his left hand? (This process would make it a bit oval right?)

Of course some friction and stickyness from the surface is neccesary here .-)

The dough oposite the hand gets "pulled under" the ball, tightening it... In the last picture he has moved the ball back for another go.

Did I get it right?

Thanks for the cool pictures. Nice to see the master in action .-)

Edited May 8, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[SweetSide]

So If I got this right.....

The first picture is the start position. The dough ball is then "pushed" left to right (from dan's point of view), with his left hand? (This process would make it a bit oval right?)

Of course some friction and stickyness from the surface is neccesary here .-)

The dough oposite the hand gets "pulled under" the ball, tightening it... In the last picture he has moved the ball back for another go.

Did I get it right?

Thanks for the cool pictures. Nice to see the master in action .-)

←

[glennbech]

http://www.glennbech.com/uploaded_images/basket_upclose.jpg 8 2006, 08:47 AM]

You got it -- not an avid bread baker here as the others are, but can still round.  When you pull the bread back for another go, give it a slight rotation.  Above it mentioned clockwise, but my natural motion is counterclockwise.  You'll "feel" a natural rhythm when you do it.

And you are right about the surface stickyness.  When first learning, my table had too much flour residue and I couldn't get the friction.

←

This was real fun! I managed to get the teqnique right after a few tries. I had an excellent baking day today, with a yeast/sour combo with boiled whole wheat grain, honey and roasted Barley flour still in the oven.

I also made myself some baskets for proofing today! Real fun, and no sweat. rubbed'em with rye flour before use. They worked like a charm!

More pictures at my blog

Edited May 8, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Desiderio]

Weee great those are just gourgeus .

Thank you for sharing how to make them , I think this weekend I am out to get some supply to make a couple .

I was wondering how to make something like that but for shaping baguettes while they are profing or resting in the fridge,just linen cloths with folds to hold the shape maybe?

Thank you Glen awesome one ,waiting to see the final results of the bread.Another thing , how do you like Dan lepard book?I was thinking of ordering it , the only one I have now is the Hamelman .

[McDuff]

I'll tell what's humbling...you're the head baker in a startup thing run by two fools, all the bread is sponge and dough, full of honey and dried fruit and nuts, real tight bouncy dough all shaped into rounds,you think you are good, and they hire a guy who really knows his way around the bakeshop, and he can round loaves one with each hand. We were totally in awe. I still can't do it.

[glennbech]

I'll tell what's humbling...you're the head baker in a startup thing run by two fools, all the bread is sponge and dough, full of honey and dried fruit and nuts, real tight bouncy dough all shaped into rounds,you think you are good, and they hire a guy who really knows his way around the bakeshop, and he can round loaves one with each hand. We were totally in awe. I still can't do it.

←

*grin* well... maybe he's just an "eye hand coordination" natural talent? Or maybe just had loootos and lots of practice .-) Good luck on your startup by the way! :-)

[glennbech]

Weee great those are just gourgeus  .

Thank you for sharing how to make them , I think this weekend I am out to get some supply to make a couple .

I was wondering how to make something like that but for shaping baguettes while they are profing or resting in the fridge,just linen cloths with folds to hold the shape maybe?

Thank you Glen awesome one ,waiting to see the final results of the bread.Another thing , how do you like Dan lepard book?I was thinking of ordering it , the only one I have now is the Hamelman .

←

I've seen on some tutorials where just a floured linnen cloth and a baking pin is

used to hold baguettes in shape wil proofing. I'm also trying to get my hands on a few oval baskets to hold batons.

Dan Lepard's book (Handmade loaf) is okay. However, only the first few chapters are "knowhow" and "technique" the rest is bread recipe's from around northern europe and russia/ukraina. That is however; Great inspiration! Also has a recipe for an interesing starter on yogurt and rasins .-)

I tried a recipe last night with my hand crafted proofing baskets. They worked so well, and Im so pleased with them. The breads on the other hand were not so great .-)

Since this is a Tecnical Q/A Thread....

Q :How long do you have to soak/boil whole grain wheat to get them moist enogh to include in a bread? I tried like 15 minutes or something, and the bread still had some real hard grain in them.

Q: I'l also not so sure about adding honey (Dan Lepard has a it in many recipe's), it has a real distinct taste.

Q: I experienced first hand that the whole grain pierces the gluten, and reduces rise. Crust development was also real bad as it "cracked up" everywhere. No need to slash these I tell you that.

Can I add pure gluten to such a recipe to counter such an effect? Can I add pure gluten poweder to wheat flour to "boost" it into "strong flour" ?

Q: Is autolysis without leaven and added salt extra important in whole grain, and recipes with a smaller amount of gluten?

Desiderio: I'm Looking forward to seeing those baguettes. I wan to try some myself

Edited May 9, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Desiderio]

In hamelman book he talks about cold and hot soaker.

Hot with boiled water ) soaker for hard grains , he said it take several hours, and suggest to start the soaker when you start the starter mix.

[glennbech]

About the potency of starters/pre-ferments....

I hope anyone can shed some ligh on this mystery for me... Today, after coming home from work, my tablespoon of starter + 100g flour/100g water was not as potent as It usually is. I always put the preferment in a measuring cup, so that I can see tha actual rise.

The attached image shows a "medium" rise for my starter culture. The "best" I've managed to go from 3 dl to 8-9 dl in about 12 hours (I came home from work 12 hours after starting the pre-ferment, so the actual time may have been less. )

Today, I got a weak 1/3 rise, as compared to a 4/3 rise like earlier.

I forgot the measuring cup in the window, and it has been exposed to direct sunlight for periods of time during the day. Can that have something to do with it ?

My "mother" culture that lives in the fridge has gone into the mode where it has a fluid layer on top. I emptied a lot of it today and fed it flour & water, and are planning to repeat that in 24 hours. Is this really neccesary?

And My real question is; Does the "potency" of the pre-ferment directly affect it's rising capabilities ? I mean does a highly potent pre-ferment rise a dough more and faster? .

Is is possible to use a not so active pre-ferment and just increase proofing / bulk ferment time ?

I guess I will get the answer to this now, as the loaves are in my hand crafted proofing baskets as I type... However after 2 hours of proofing, I can't say I have an explosion .-). .-) Maybe I'll bake one, and see if I get some oven spring. If I don't I just keep proofing the other one 2-3 more hours.

Medium starter activity (according to my observations of my own culture) can be seen here . How does this compare to your starters ?

[Bill44]

About the potency of starters/pre-ferments....

And My real question is; Does the "potency" of the pre-ferment directly affect it's rising capabilities ? I mean does a highly potent pre-ferment rise a dough more and faster? .

Is is possible to use a not so active pre-ferment and just increase proofing / bulk ferment time ?

Q1.It will rise faster but not necessarily more.

Q2. Yes, and you will possably get a stronger "Sour".

kind regards

Bill

[rooftop1000]

Does anyone happen to have a recipe for a standard "White Bread"?...pullman ...yeah that sounds less like wonder bread.

Preferabley not in bakers percentages I haven't wrapped my head around that yet, I still convert grams to cups and hope for the best

All that chewey bread is killing my jaw and giving me headaches

tracey

[Bill44]

Here's a few english muffins I made yesterday. The dough mix is 81.6% hydration.

When I cut the others they had a lot more holes, trust me to pick the lousy one to photograph.

regards

Bill