Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 1)

[Desiderio]

Very nice Don.

I gotta try some I adore focaccia and I can find it here ,what proportions did you use?

Thank you Vanessa

[glennbech]

Looks great! How on earth dou you handle a 100% hydration dough?!! .-) I've been struggelig to keep my 75% doughs from sticking to everything in my kitchen .-)

[donyeokl]

Hi Vanessa,

Thank you... This is the recipe I used:

STARTER

125g Active starter (100% hydration)

65g Water (room temperature)

1/2 tblsp Honey or Maple Syrup

1/2 tblsp Olive oil

DOUGH

1 tsp Salt

250g All Purpose flour (Sifted with salt)

Whisk the starter, water, honey and olive oil together then add the flour and salt. Stir and mix well with your hand till you get a dough consistency which will be a little sticky. Scrap all the loose dough from your hands and bowl. Clean and slightly oil a bowl and leave the dough for 10 minutes covered. After the 10 minutes, oil your hand, pour out the dough on a clean and oiled surface and knead for approx 15 seconds turning and folding the dough as you go (stop kneading once dough begin to stick to the surface). Put dough back into bowl and cover for another 10 mins before kneading again (you do 3 x 15secs knead at 10mins interval for 30mins total). After the 30mins, pour the dough on to oiled surface, press down lightly to make a rectangle and fold dough in thirds ( take top edge fold in 1/3 and fold the bottom over, just like what you do for puff pastry), turn the dough a quarter turn (90 deg), press lightly and fold the dough in thirds again then return it into the bowl covered with cloth. After an hour, repeat the folding process and return dough to bowl. After the third folding, take a knife, make a slit in the dough and check for bubbles. Once you see bubbles, the dough is ready to be shaped.

Preheat oven to 210C (425F), line a baking sheet with parchment paper, stretch the dough gently and press down to form a rect approx. 11in x 12in. If you find the dough too springy, cover with cloth for 10mins and press again to form the rect. Once done, cover with towel and leave to rest for 15mins then dimple the dough with your fingers and brush with olive oil. Bake for 20 mins or till top is golden brown then turn dough over and bake till bottom is brown, approx 15mins. Remove and cool on a wire rack.

I hope this helps....

Looks great! How on earth dou you handle a 100% hydration dough?!! .-) I've been struggelig to keep my 75% doughs from sticking to everything in my kitchen .-)

Hi glennbech,

the hydration % I mentioned is referring to the hydration of the starter and not the hydration of the dough. I did not use any commercial yeast for this recipe. Apologies if I mislead you.

Cheers

Don

[Desiderio]

Thank you Don , I can t wait to try it it sure look yummie , I just bought some salame milano to go with .

Thank you

[glennbech]

Hi!

A Question about your total hydration...

Putting your recipe into my fantastic Baker's percentage calculator

Shows me that this is a very dense dogh, with a total hydration at about 40% Is this typical for foccacia recipes?

Rgrds

[donyeokl]

Hi there,

From what I have seen so far, the hydration has been close to this %. There are recipes that has lower or some slightly higher. I have realize that you need to be on the gentle side and not to degazz the dough while kneading and folding. From what I have seen and tasted, some focaccia are pretty dense and you might want to think that this is somewhat modified to suit my liking...

Apologies if I have not answered you in a more technical manner... Someone help!!!

Cheers...

Don

[glennbech]

You're reply is perfectly technical enogh -.) I was just wondering if you had made a "special" type of focaccia .-) I'm very new to this, and were confused to see breads with hydration levels less than 50% .-)

Happy baking... Mmm... It sure looked good .-)

[RonC]

It looks truly great. I've got to try your recipe. Thanks for sharing!

Sidecar Ron

[glennbech]

Another very usefull leasons learned today ; Never (completely) trust a recipe!

Since Im new to the sourdough baking, I tried to be true to my recipe that got me good tasting bread the last time; However, the results were disaster.

My pre-ferment/sponge were stored 8-12 hours, just as my good working recipe. However, when baking today, i stored it at about 32-33 C. Last time, I guess the temperature were about 26-28. This makes a huge impact the the pre-ferment!

Today, after storing at 32-33, the pre-ferment were liquidized. I could pour it out of the bowl. It aslo had the best rising ability I've ever seen in a sourdough. My guess is that the processes that feeds on the statch is running a lot faster at the 32c temperature, producing a more liquid dough.

Since Im new, I didn't dare to alter my initial recipe and went for the same amounts of additional flour and water...

This was a total disaster, with yet another extremely sour "pancake" bread :-) I ruined a linnen cloth. Even stuffed with rye flour, the dough stuck to my improvised proofing tool.

I couldn't even slice it, since the breads were so Wet. So it cracked up all over during baking.

I guess I have to practice practice practice. Im was a bit frustrated today. Since i got real excited seeing the great rising power of my dough, the dissapointment over the extremely bad result was extra hard. But, I'll keep doing it untill I get it right, and develop a feel for how it's done !

[donyeokl]

Hi Glenbech,

You're reply is perfectly technical enogh -.) I was just wondering if you had made a "special" type of focaccia .-) I'm very new to this, and were confused to see breads with hydration levels less than 50% .-)

I really hope so... I tried a sourdough recipe with 50% hydration and it still turn out fine but crumbs are on the dense side. I am also a beginner in this so I am trying out with whatever I learn.

It looks truly great. I've got to try your recipe. Thanks for sharing!

Hi Ron,

Your most welcome. Please try the recipe and do post some photos of it...

Happy Baking

Don

[donyeokl]

Hi Glenbech,

I leave my starter at about 30C temp here where I live and it seems fine. What I have realised though is that I do adjust the final proof time accordingly as the temperature is higher where I live (30C to 34C) thus the proofing time is shorter as compared to the recipe books where the temp are considerably lower, in their 20s.

Even stuffed with rye flour, the dough stuck to my improvised proofing tool.

You might want to use rice flour instead of rye flour, it works too and to me its much cheaper than rye where I am located...

Happy Baking

Don

[glennbech]

More sourdough technical subjects for discussion :-)

A) What is the most common cause of low rise during both fermentation, proofing and baking? I made good tasting bread today, but they were a bit on the "compact" side, if you lnow what I mean .-)

B) Can someone verify or falsify this statements ?

- At 32C the acid producing bacteria are unhappy, the yeast thrives.

- At 28C the acid bacteria trive, and the yeast is not so happy.

- At 30C this balance is optimal

Hence, Higher temperatures during sponge development/fermentation the more rise but less sour bread.

Lower temperatures during sponge development/fermentation means less rise but more "sourdough taste".

[glennbech]

I have a question about kneading a dough. The question is basicly Hand kneading versus machine kneading.

I have a Kenwood Major kitcen machine with a dedicated kneading tool, and I love it. This is the process I usually use ;

Hold back 100g of whater, add all other ingredients. I first Knead slow for 3 minutes. I then Increase the speed, and add a bit of the water. The dough goes wet. I wait until the dough firms up, and add more water. I keep doing this untill all the water is in. (Taking 5 to 10 minutes). Total kneading time is therefore usually from 8-10 minutes.

I can easily do the "windowpane" test at that time, and the dough is usually smooth, shiny and elastic.

Any Idea on how this machine aproach compares to hand kneading? Does my aproach sound like something that can produce good bread?

[Paul Stanley]

I have a question about kneading a dough. The question is basicly Hand kneading versus machine kneading.

I have a Kenwood Major kitcen machine with a dedicated kneading tool, and I love it. This is the process I usually use ;

Hold back 100g of whater, add all other ingredients. I first Knead slow for 3 minutes.  I then Increase the speed, and add a bit of the water. The dough goes wet. I wait until the dough firms up, and add more water. I keep doing this untill all the water is in. (Taking 5 to 10 minutes). Total kneading time is therefore usually from 8-10 minutes.

I can easily do the "windowpane" test at that time, and the dough is usually smooth, shiny and elastic.

Any Idea on how this machine aproach compares to hand kneading? Does my aproach sound like something that can produce good bread?

←

What is the thinking behind adding the water gradually?

I used to use a KA to mix, in which case I simply added all the water together and used it to knead, usually on a fairly slow speed, until I was happy.

I no longer have the KA, so now I work by hand. I have had great success with Dan Lepard's method: a rough mix, wait 10 minutes, and then three 15 second (yes ... second) kneads at 10 minute intervals. The thinking is that gluten development depends as much on hydration as on mechanical manipulation, so what the dough really needs is time not action. The result is like magic, and does seem to produce a dough which is just what I would expect of kneaded dough, silky smooth and elastically resilent by the time the last knead is complete. The finished bread is as good as anything I ever made kneading with the KA.

Holding back water would seem inconsistent with the theory behind this approach ... which doesn't mean it might not work!

One possible advantage to the "gradual incorporation" method would be the ability to make small adjustments for consistency. My problem with that is that I don't think I bake enough to judge the adjustments accurately: I am as likely to make dough too wet by adding too much water because it "looks dry" at an early stage as I am to get it right, or too dry because it seems "too wet" when it would have been perfectly OK if it had been allowed to hydrate and rise. So now I tend to stick to the recipe quite precisely, and only adjust (next time I make a particular recipe) if the mix was significantly wrong the previous time. By sticking to the same flour, I get reasonably consistent results. Not perfect, no doubt, but then baking is all about compromise. I do however adjust rising/proofing based on how the dough is performing, and in that way one can to some extent compensate, albeit imperfectly, for small variations in dough consistency.

(BTW, I can also see that there might be reasons to build a dough in a series of distinct stages with quite differenty hydrations, eg a sponge to get yeast activity going strongly, followed by a stiff dough to enable long fermentation with only limited rising, followed by a baking-thickness dough to shape and proof. I've read/baked some recipes like this. But that seems a different proposition from your method.)

[glennbech]

Thanks for your thoughts...

you know... The thinking behind gradually adding water is unknown for me. It's just the recipe I follow from my first book about bread. Since I don't like doing things just "because" I threw away my old recipe book today, and ordered both Dan Lepard's and Ed Wood's books.

After doing more experiments today I have even more questions...

This is my routine.

On the days I bake I always follow the same recipe. 8'ish, preferment/sponge with a tablespoon or so of starter and equal amounts of flour/water. The flour I use in the sponge will amount to about 30% of my total flour weight. Today for example I used 150g flour in the sponge and 450g total.

When i get home from work 8-12 hours later, my pre-ferment should be bubbely and active. Recently It hasn't, and I now figured out that 35-38 degrees is probably not very good for it.

Adding more flour and water (of course using my Online Baker's percentage calculator ) to get the values I want.

My routine uptil now has been to rise the dough for 1 hour, and proof it for anohter, before cutting and baking.

Now my questions begin ; Any answer of any depth on any of them will be warmly recieved.

A) What is the purpose of both rise & proof ? Why don't just form the dough and proof it for a longer time. What good does the "knockdown" add ?

B) I recently discovered that when I cut my loaves before putting them in, the cuts are not deep enogh and the crust cracks elsewere. Should I cut even deeper ?

C) I discovered (to my horror) that I probably have been keeping my sponge/preferment, and dough during rising in 32-35 degrees C. Could this have killed the yeast ? Explaining poor rise ?

D) I get REAL poor oven spring. How can I get more? I want more more more ! :-) :-)

And today; ... Darn! I forgot the salt... :-) It's a good thing the loaves are only for practice .-)

I guess a lot of these questions will be answered when my books arrive as well. In the mean time, please feel free to fill me in !

Rgrds,

[CanadianBakin']

I have a question too!

I'm on day 2 of my first sour dough bread. I'm using a recipe from the Chef who taught a pastry & baking class I took in March.

Day 1 - I kneaded together starter, bread flour, water and salt. Let sit at room temp 24 hours.

Day 2 - I made up the bread dough and let sit at room temp 6 hours, then shaped and now have in the fridge fermenting.

Day 3 - I'm supposed to let sit at room temp until double and then bake. I know it depends on a lot of factors but approximately how long will this take? I have 2 1-1/2 lb loaves. If I take them out at 1pm should that be enough time to have them ready for dinner at 5:30? I'm going to be out most of the morning so my other option is to take them out at 9am and bake them off when they look ready, hoping that from 9 - 1pm when I get home won't be too long.

Also, what temp and approximately how long? My instructions just say to BAKE.

I don't know if it makes a difference but I made them with multi-grain bread flour.

Edited May 3, 2006 by CanadianBakin' (log)

[Desiderio]

I am at my fourth sourdough bread ( I am about to finish the fourth tonight).

I had a very good experience with the recepie I am following from the Hamelman's book,I made the pain au levain ( sourdough bread),and tonight I am making the vermont sourdough , even though this is gonna be colorado sourdough.

I dont get much bulk raise and neither after I shape the loaves they dont change too much ,maybe just flatten a bit after a while,but I do get an awesome oven spring ,like probably 3 times the volume .With the Pain au levain I dont not retard the loaves in the fridge ( actually Hamelman said this kind of bread will lose some of its caracteristics), but I probably gonna try to retard this one see how it goes.

Since I have bought the stone to cook the bread on I have notice a better quality of the crumb and the crust .

Right now I am baking couple days a week ,yes yes I ate a lots of bread , Iam italian and I miss the real bread here

Well good bread to you guys still lots to learn , lucky I love bread

[glennbech]

In my experience, you should take those loaves out as early as possible. The fermentation process that raisesyour bread are very dormant when cold.

The dough will use some hours just to get to room temperature. I'd definitly go for 9 am, if the aim is to double their size before they go into the oven,

From what I've read, and from my limited experience, it's hard to overproof (so they collapse) sourdough loaves.

Questions for you;

At day 1, do you mix your entire dough, or just a about 30% of

your flour ?

Good luck, and please post your results.

[glennbech]

I'm still very curious about the difference between bulk ferment and proofing. I mean... Why don't just form the laoves right away, and bulk ferment/proof at the same time.

It might have something to do with texture I gues? That the "knockdown" the doigh gets when you form the loaves is a good thing. I Might have to conduct some experiments of my own here .-)

Rgrds,

Edited May 3, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Desiderio]

In my experience, you should take those loaves out as early as possible. The fermentation process that raisesyour bread are very dormant when cold.

The dough will use some hours just to get to room temperature.  I'd definitly go for 9 am, if the aim is to double their size before they go into the oven,

From what I've read, and from my limited experience, it's hard to overproof (so they collapse) sourdough loaves.

Questions for you;

At day 1, do you mix your entire dough, or just a about 30% of

your flour ?

Good luck, and please post your results.

←

Do you mean for the starter or for the entire dough?

I do my preferment before I go to work ,when I came home usually I mix it with the rest of the recepie and do an autolyse ,the pain au levain only flour and water ,and add the salt and the starter after about 20 to 60 minuts later ,with this sourdough tonight I did the autolyse with the flour the water and the starter ,waited the same time and then add the salt the the usual bulk couple of folding etc.

[glennbech]

Okay, I see what you mean now. thanks .-)

By the way; I experienced a huge benefit from putting the dough in the fridge for retardation the other day ; It definitly stiffnes up a bit, especially with wet doughs.

This makes the shape of the loaf better (less dreaded pan-cake effect in the oven), also easier to slice.

[Paul Stanley]

A number of comments:

1. Why bulk fermentation Some breads are not bulk fermented. As I understand it, it serves three functions. (a) The longer fermentation allows more time for some of the developments other than rising, including bacterial action, which affect the taste of the loaf. (b) The double fermentation affects the texture of the bread. (c.) The first rising allows the yeast to become highly active, allowing for a faster proofing, which makes shaping easier.

2. Your times Compared to the approach I use (which is Lepard's) your bulk rising and proofing times seem very short. Compared to your 1 hour rise, I allow 4 hours. Compared to your 1 hour proof, mine takes around 3 hours to approximately double in bulk. The key is to see the approximate doubling though, not the time. I use much less starter than you: for me only about 15% of the flour is in the starter.

3. Your ovenspring Lack of ovenspring could be from a variety of factors. It seems very unlikely that a 1 hour proof is overproofing (but are you seeing an approximate doubling?). And if the dough is bursting out then you are getting oven-spring. My guess is that you are under-proofing, and then baking at a time when crust formation prevents further rising and then you kill the yeast. The key I think is to go by the amount the dough has risen, not the time. I do add some steam in the form of water in a pan in the oven--about a cup, which evaporates about 10 minutes after the loaf goes in. I don't know truly whether that makes any difference.

4. Pancake effect To some degree this is inevitable. Three things help for me. The first is very careful shaping of the loaf. You have to make sure that there is good tension in the surface, which holds everything in place. The loaf after shaping needs to be nice and tight. The second is to use a proofing basket, but I think you are doing that. The third is to cover the proofing loaf with a cloth, not plastic. I think a little drying of the surface (not too much) is better than a very damp surface, which is very hard to handle later. Over-handling when the loaf is moving from proofing basket to the oven can be a problem with shape. You need to get the hang of moving very fast but very gently when transferring the proofed loaf to the oven. I have found that placing the loaf on a cold tray and thence into the oven works better for me than using a peel, because my "peel technique" is poor, and the damage I do to the loaf transferring it twice (basket to peel, peel to hot oven) is greater than the additional benefit I get from putting it onto a hot surface. Another baking compromise, to make up for my poor technique!

[glennbech]

Hi Paul, Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail!

The reason I experiment with short bulk and short proof is to cram one bread baking session into one day. 7 hours of bulk/proof just doesn't fit into my schedule. (I'd be baking at 01:00 am)

The final conclusion may be that good bread isn't baked in a day .-)

I could bulk ferment , shape and retard (fridge) one day and proof on the next though. I might try that .-) Paitience... I have to have patience...

As of your advice on over-handling.. It's nice to learn that Im doing something right. My peel technique is getting real good, the only thing that cause disaster right now, is that my linnen cloth sometimes sticks to the dough. Even the smallest sticky point will completely ruin the

proofed loaves.

I'm trying everything... rye flour, rice flour, rubbing it in, putting the cloth in the basket, closing it with a lid and shaking it like crazy etc. I'm getting there .... Good results last night :-)

As for the steam... I'm doing that too, and during this weekend I think I "over-steamed" a few. I got real shiny looking bread. Too bad I didn't take a picture of it.

[Desiderio]

Okay, I see what you mean now. thanks .-)

By the way;  I experienced a huge benefit from putting the dough in the fridge for retardation the other day ; It definitly stiffnes up a bit, especially with wet doughs. 

This makes the shape of the loaf better (less dreaded pan-cake effect in the oven), also easier to slice.

←

You know I couldnt do the refrigeration this time , didnt have the time and actually no room in the fridge .

I do add steam as well in the form of ice cubes at the beginning right when I am putting the bread in and close right away, then I add some more water in a pan that I usually put on the bottom f the over for steam.I do remove that whan the oven spring has ended , so the bread can actually dry out little bit , if that makes sense, I think that steaming at the beginning really makes some difference on my loaves expecially with the ice cubes cause on a hot pan they make lots of steam in little time .

Oh and my peeling tecniche is a disaster P I really need to work on that maybe get some rice flour and better linen cloths for that porpose, but even they sticked this time it didtn seams to bother the raising at all, I was kinda rude on getting them out of the sheet psn to the stone in the oven .I do end up on cooking all night with this type of session and I think its beacuse my working schedule , but it doeas take some time anyway.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

[Paul Stanley]

Ugh. Bread dough is like a baby: it insists on following its own timetable. The other night I mixed dough at midnight, then got up at 4.00am to shape it before going back to sleep, then baked at 7.00! Fresh bread for lunch ... but slightly crazy.