Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 1)

[glennbech]

I'm still very curious about the difference between bulk ferment and proofing. I mean... Why don't just form the laoves right away, and bulk ferment/proof at the same time.

It might have something to do with texture I gues? That the "knockdown" the doigh gets when you form the loaves is a good thing. I Might have to conduct some experiments of my own here .-)

Rgrds,

Edited May 3, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Desiderio]

In my experience, you should take those loaves out as early as possible. The fermentation process that raisesyour bread are very dormant when cold.

The dough will use some hours just to get to room temperature.  I'd definitly go for 9 am, if the aim is to double their size before they go into the oven,

From what I've read, and from my limited experience, it's hard to overproof (so they collapse) sourdough loaves.

Questions for you;

At day 1, do you mix your entire dough, or just a about 30% of

your flour ?

Good luck, and please post your results.

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Do you mean for the starter or for the entire dough?

I do my preferment before I go to work ,when I came home usually I mix it with the rest of the recepie and do an autolyse ,the pain au levain only flour and water ,and add the salt and the starter after about 20 to 60 minuts later ,with this sourdough tonight I did the autolyse with the flour the water and the starter ,waited the same time and then add the salt the the usual bulk couple of folding etc.

[glennbech]

Okay, I see what you mean now. thanks .-)

By the way; I experienced a huge benefit from putting the dough in the fridge for retardation the other day ; It definitly stiffnes up a bit, especially with wet doughs.

This makes the shape of the loaf better (less dreaded pan-cake effect in the oven), also easier to slice.

[Paul Stanley]

A number of comments:

1. Why bulk fermentation Some breads are not bulk fermented. As I understand it, it serves three functions. (a) The longer fermentation allows more time for some of the developments other than rising, including bacterial action, which affect the taste of the loaf. (b) The double fermentation affects the texture of the bread. (c.) The first rising allows the yeast to become highly active, allowing for a faster proofing, which makes shaping easier.

2. Your times Compared to the approach I use (which is Lepard's) your bulk rising and proofing times seem very short. Compared to your 1 hour rise, I allow 4 hours. Compared to your 1 hour proof, mine takes around 3 hours to approximately double in bulk. The key is to see the approximate doubling though, not the time. I use much less starter than you: for me only about 15% of the flour is in the starter.

3. Your ovenspring Lack of ovenspring could be from a variety of factors. It seems very unlikely that a 1 hour proof is overproofing (but are you seeing an approximate doubling?). And if the dough is bursting out then you are getting oven-spring. My guess is that you are under-proofing, and then baking at a time when crust formation prevents further rising and then you kill the yeast. The key I think is to go by the amount the dough has risen, not the time. I do add some steam in the form of water in a pan in the oven--about a cup, which evaporates about 10 minutes after the loaf goes in. I don't know truly whether that makes any difference.

4. Pancake effect To some degree this is inevitable. Three things help for me. The first is very careful shaping of the loaf. You have to make sure that there is good tension in the surface, which holds everything in place. The loaf after shaping needs to be nice and tight. The second is to use a proofing basket, but I think you are doing that. The third is to cover the proofing loaf with a cloth, not plastic. I think a little drying of the surface (not too much) is better than a very damp surface, which is very hard to handle later. Over-handling when the loaf is moving from proofing basket to the oven can be a problem with shape. You need to get the hang of moving very fast but very gently when transferring the proofed loaf to the oven. I have found that placing the loaf on a cold tray and thence into the oven works better for me than using a peel, because my "peel technique" is poor, and the damage I do to the loaf transferring it twice (basket to peel, peel to hot oven) is greater than the additional benefit I get from putting it onto a hot surface. Another baking compromise, to make up for my poor technique!

[glennbech]

Hi Paul, Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail!

The reason I experiment with short bulk and short proof is to cram one bread baking session into one day. 7 hours of bulk/proof just doesn't fit into my schedule. (I'd be baking at 01:00 am)

The final conclusion may be that good bread isn't baked in a day .-)

I could bulk ferment , shape and retard (fridge) one day and proof on the next though. I might try that .-) Paitience... I have to have patience...

As of your advice on over-handling.. It's nice to learn that Im doing something right. My peel technique is getting real good, the only thing that cause disaster right now, is that my linnen cloth sometimes sticks to the dough. Even the smallest sticky point will completely ruin the

proofed loaves.

I'm trying everything... rye flour, rice flour, rubbing it in, putting the cloth in the basket, closing it with a lid and shaking it like crazy etc. I'm getting there .... Good results last night :-)

As for the steam... I'm doing that too, and during this weekend I think I "over-steamed" a few. I got real shiny looking bread. Too bad I didn't take a picture of it.

[Desiderio]

Okay, I see what you mean now. thanks .-)

By the way;  I experienced a huge benefit from putting the dough in the fridge for retardation the other day ; It definitly stiffnes up a bit, especially with wet doughs. 

This makes the shape of the loaf better (less dreaded pan-cake effect in the oven), also easier to slice.

←

You know I couldnt do the refrigeration this time , didnt have the time and actually no room in the fridge .

I do add steam as well in the form of ice cubes at the beginning right when I am putting the bread in and close right away, then I add some more water in a pan that I usually put on the bottom f the over for steam.I do remove that whan the oven spring has ended , so the bread can actually dry out little bit , if that makes sense, I think that steaming at the beginning really makes some difference on my loaves expecially with the ice cubes cause on a hot pan they make lots of steam in little time .

Oh and my peeling tecniche is a disaster P I really need to work on that maybe get some rice flour and better linen cloths for that porpose, but even they sticked this time it didtn seams to bother the raising at all, I was kinda rude on getting them out of the sheet psn to the stone in the oven .I do end up on cooking all night with this type of session and I think its beacuse my working schedule , but it doeas take some time anyway.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

[Paul Stanley]

Ugh. Bread dough is like a baby: it insists on following its own timetable. The other night I mixed dough at midnight, then got up at 4.00am to shape it before going back to sleep, then baked at 7.00! Fresh bread for lunch ... but slightly crazy.

[Desiderio]

Ugh. Bread dough is like a baby: it insists on following its own timetable. The other night I mixed dough at midnight, then got up at 4.00am to shape it before going back to sleep, then baked at 7.00! Fresh bread for lunch ... but slightly crazy.

←

I agree I do the same I am up now at 6.30 to do the baking, but it is worth ,I love to have fresh bread

[glennbech]

It's so cool to hear that you guys are altering your time table to babysit bread. I thought I was the only one. Lol .-)

[Desiderio]

Umm I am not satisfied with the bread , I mean its ok , but nothing like I wanted .I want lots of nice holes and a thick crust , that I dont seem able to reproduce.The other resepie at this point was closer , in this one I did last night the crum sems too compact, no holes or just few little ones.In fact it says in the recepie to retard overnight for this , I am wondering if the refrigeration will help create a better crumb more areated.Hamelman in his book said ( I went and look today again ) that after ther refrigeration the loaves dont need to be at room temperature before baking , but just bake them out of the fridge , if the proofing and shaping etc is done correctly.I migh try another batch on thursday night ( last day of the week for my working schedule so I can dedicate more time at the bread ).I also notice a big difference in the taste , and I thought there was almost no difference between the two recepie ( such a newbie haha ).Oh well its good to try though .Keep you posted .

Good bread guys

[rooftop1000]

So everyone baking bread definatly got to me. Last Friday I started a starter. Did everything by the book as it were ...the EGCI Sourdough class.

Monday morning I refreshed the starter, Monday night I mixed and hydrated and salted and mixed and proofed. It rose a teeny tiny bit, and into the fridge it went. Tuesday afternoon I flipped my floury dough pancake onto the peel and into a really hot oven. I used a squeeze bottle to spray water on the floor and walls of the oven, then cursed like a sailor pulled the rack out slashed the top of the dough sprayed and shut the door again.

It rose like a champ got all nice and brown and crusty...so I repeated with the second dough pancake....dare I say an EXACT repeat - load, spray, curse, slash, spray etc.

I also lowered the temp a little for the 2nd loaf.

Well neither one was fully cooked inside BUT it was the best tasting bread I have ever made and makes really nice toast.

Pizza on saturday

tracey

Edited May 4, 2006 by rooftop1000 (log)

[glennbech]

Your crumb looks real nice, but you say it wasn't cooked on the inside ? Do you mean like a bit "moist"? I've experienced that I couple of times.

Good work man!

[glennbech]

Umm I am not satisfied with the bread , I mean its ok , but  nothing like I wanted .I want lots of nice holes and a thick crust , that I dont seem able to reproduce.The other resepie at this point was closer , in this one I did last night the crum sems too compact, no holes or just few little ones.In fact it says in the recepie to retard overnight for this , I am wondering if the refrigeration will help create a better crumb more areated.Hamelman in his book said ( I went and look today again ) that after ther refrigeration the loaves dont need to be at room temperature before baking , but just bake them out of the fridge , if the proofing and shaping etc is done correctly.I migh try another batch on thursday night ( last day of the week for my working schedule so I can dedicate more time at the bread  ).I also notice a big difference in the taste , and I thought there was almost no difference between the two recepie (  such a newbie haha ).Oh well its good to try though .Keep you posted .

Good bread  guys

←

What were your rising and proofing times for this batch? I'm not sure anymore if the "holes" is something to aim for (other than the cool looks) I managed to get real big holes with my last loaves, but the crumb was still moist and compact .-) So... Big

holes surrounded by bad tasting moist crumb... I'd be happy with an even spongy and fluffy crumb any day .-)

I have a dough in the fridge right now that rised 4 hours last night, shaped and put directly into the fridge. I wonder if I should proof it for 3-4 hours before baking, or just slap it on the peel, slice and bake.... Any Ideas on this? Anyone ?

[glennbech]

Okay... 3'rd post in a row here :-) I'm spamming this thread... (I don't really care since I started it, and really want to share a Revealation made last night *grin* )

Instead of mixing the dough first carefully for 3 minutes, and then more intensly up to 5 minutes more with my Kenwood, I just used the machine to mix all ingredients after my pre-ferment.

I then just worked a bit with the dough on the table top, and let it rest for 10-15 mintutes.

Here is the incredible thing.. when I got back, I expected a wet difficult to handle douhg. That was not true! The doigh had "hardened" significantly, and I was able to give it a few "folds" and "flips" with my hands oiled. I let it rest some more, and went back later... Even more firmness....

I've read about this teqnique on this forum, but seeing it for myself was a very interesting experience. I didn't do this "scientificly" like counting seconds when handling the dough, and doing perfect timings between handling, but I rested and worked the dough for an hour or so.

It is by far the firmest and easiest 68% hydration dough I'e been working with as of today .-)

[Paul Stanley]

I'm glad you tried that method. It is sort of magic isn't it? After years reckoning that I had to knead and knead to get decent bread, the revelation that it was as much time as kneading that matters has been considerable. I find the process of gently kneading and then turning on an oiled surface quite helpful, and the resulting dough rather easier to handle.

As to holes, moist crumb etc etc. I think one has to let the holes take care of themselves! I tend to get bread with a few large holes, but not all that many, which is fine by me. Overall texture of the crumb is more important. Also, I do want an "even" crumb, if you see what I mean: large and small holes, but all through the loaf, not a tight texture at the bottom and huge holes at the top. That tends to come I think from trying to use a wet dough to make shapes (boules, batons) it can't support: wet doughs demand "flatter" shapes (think ciabatta and focaccia).

On crust, I find that leaving the bread in the oven for about 5 to 10 minutes after it is cooked (with the oven turned off) improves the crust. But I've never got in my domestic oven a crust of the quality that comes out of a "proper" bread oven, and I suspect one just has to live with that.

So far as the moistness of the crumb is concerned, I think it is partly a question of the baking (must bake enough ... which usually means a little longer than you think you need), partly a question of the adequacy of the proofing (under proofed bread tends to seem a bit soggy because it is so dense), and partly maybe a question of time after baking. The quality of the crumb and the taste improves over a few hours after baking, I think. Not sure about the chemistry of that, but presumably the same process as staling. To some degree it is desirable. For me the "perfect" window for sourdough is between 6 hours and 24 hours after the bread came out of the oven. Sourdough seems to get sourer over that time as well. And naturally raised breads can have quite a moist crumb anyway, often. Poilane's bread, for instance, has just that moist texture. I don't think it is undesirable!

[Paul Stanley]

BTW, Tracey, that bread looks great, and the loaf you have cut doesn't look soggy or underbaked at all. Lovely.

[Desiderio]

So everyone baking bread definatly got to me. Last Friday I started a starter. Did everything by the book as it were ...the EGCI Sourdough class.

Monday morning I refreshed the starter, Monday night I mixed and hydrated and salted and mixed and proofed. It rose a teeny tiny bit, and into the fridge it went. Tuesday afternoon I flipped my floury dough pancake onto the peel and into a really hot oven. I used a squeeze bottle to spray water on the floor and walls of the oven, then cursed like a sailor pulled the rack out slashed the top of the dough sprayed and shut the door again.

It rose like a champ got all nice and brown and crusty...so I repeated with the second dough pancake....dare I say an EXACT repeat - load, spray, curse, slash, spray etc.

I also lowered the temp a little for the 2nd loaf.

Well neither one was fully cooked inside BUT it was the best tasting bread I have ever made and makes really nice toast.

Pizza on saturday

tracey

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I dont know it looks pretty good to me , and the crumb doesnt look undercooked looks great , I wish I could get that kinda of crumb , stil wasnt able to at this point .

Good work , Thanks for sharing guys )

[Desiderio]

Okay... 3'rd post in a row here :-) I'm spamming this thread...  (I don't really care since I started it, and really want to share a Revealation made last night *grin* )

Instead of mixing the dough first carefully for 3 minutes, and then more intensly up to 5 minutes more with my Kenwood, I just used the machine to mix all ingredients after my pre-ferment.

I then just worked a bit with the dough on the table top, and let it rest for 10-15 mintutes.

Here is the incredible thing.. when I got back, I expected a wet difficult to handle douhg. That was not true! The doigh had "hardened" significantly, and I was able to give it a few "folds" and "flips" with my hands oiled.  I let it rest some more, and went back later... Even more firmness....

I've read about this teqnique on this forum, but seeing it for myself was a very interesting experience.  I didn't do this "scientificly" like counting seconds when handling the dough, and doing perfect timings between handling, but I rested and worked the dough for an hour or so.

It is by far the firmest and easiest 68% hydration dough I'e been working with as of today .-)

←

Nice , did you let the loaves in the fridge after and bake them right away?

Let us know , and post some pics .

Thank you Glennbech,this thread is very very interesting and helping us achieving what we want .

[donyeokl]

Hi Tracey,

So everyone baking bread definatly got to me. Last Friday I started a starter. Did everything by the book as it were ...the EGCI Sourdough class.

Monday morning I refreshed the starter, Monday night I mixed and hydrated and salted and mixed and proofed. It rose a teeny tiny bit, and into the fridge it went. Tuesday afternoon I flipped my floury dough pancake onto the peel and into a really hot oven. I used a squeeze bottle to spray water on the floor and walls of the oven, then cursed like a sailor pulled the rack out slashed the top of the dough sprayed and shut the door again.

It rose like a champ got all nice and brown and crusty...so I repeated with the second dough pancake....dare I say an EXACT repeat - load, spray, curse, slash, spray etc.

I also lowered the temp a little for the 2nd loaf.

Well neither one was fully cooked inside BUT it was the best tasting bread I have ever made and makes really nice toast.

The loaves look fine, seems the dough spread a little too fast before going into the oven... You might want to use a slightly smaller proving basket or banetton so that you force the dough to rise rather than spread sideways during the final rise.

What temperature did you bake the loaves in? I normally bake at 230C for 10mins then reduce to 190C and bake for another 30 to 35 minutes or till loaf sounds hollow when tapped. Put a tray of water at the bottom of the oven when baking, this will create steam in the oven. You might want to insert it at the same time you put your dough in for baking.

Hope this helps...

BTW, I just baked this sourdough loaf today using the starter instead of baker's yeast. I used Glenbech recipe and modified it a little with 50% wholemeal flour and 50% bread flour and used water instead of milk.

Thanks Glenbech for the recipe...

Happy Baking...

Don

[rooftop1000]

Don you are not going to make me think...I refuse I baked the darker one that was cut - at 500 and the lighter one got reduced to 400 after the steam. I used a floured dishtowel in a big bowl for rising and a squeeze bottle to generate steam. I have no idea what temperature the sponge was at but I let the dough rise 3 hours in the turned off oven but I was making dinner using the stove top....Did pretty good I think

tracey

[glennbech]

Nice , did you let the loaves in the fridge after and bake them right away?

Let us know , and post some pics biggrin.gif .

Well... I can only report disaster! But at least, I know where I went wrong and are making steps to correct them. I guess that's the most important thing ?

I decided on not to bake right from the fridge. So I rised the loaf for about 3 hours, and got incredible size. It was on it's way out of my proofing basket. Then disaster struck Again ....

Have a look at this... What a complete disaster. over 24 hours after i started this bread, it's totally ruined by a bad couche! Im making sure that that will never happen again!

A small detail.... Does these bubbles mean the dough is over-proved, or just well proved? I got real good rise after I took it out of the fridge.

Okay... So this is what Im doing with the stickyness.... I took out a fresh cloth. Put it on my kitchentop and sprinkled with a Lot of rye flour. I then started to press and work the flour into the cloth by applying preasure. I'm trying this design for an "anti-stick couche" as I type, and will report back with

a (I hope) successfull atempt.

The result was, of course a totally defalted dough. I should probably have put it back in a basket for a second proof. But I decided to go with it and test it's oven spring.

The results were not good, as you can see. A Very dense wet crumb (Due to under-baking), and large holes. Not a good combo .-) I'll bake my next batch tonight, with an improved couche and report back the results. Proof of failure ;

Edited May 4, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[donyeokl]

Hi Glenbech,

I decided on not to bake right from the fridge. So I rised the loaf for about 3 hours, and got incredible size. It was on it's way out of my proofing basket. Then disaster struck Again .... angry.gif

You might have over-proof the dough...

Try doing the process again, you should be fine this time...

Cheers...

Don

Edited May 5, 2006 by donyeokl (log)

[glennbech]

Over-proofed or not... If you look at the picture where My cloth is totally stuck to the dough.... Might explain a few things .-)

Anyhow... I always have a backup plan, and baked the exact same recipe starting this morning... So I'm making a "one day" variant with 3 hours ferment, shaping, 2 hour proof, slit, bake and pray for spring .-)

It looks real good, smells real g so far... I'll post pictures later tonight (It's 00:51 here).

[glennbech]

Well.. I'm very happy with today's results. One good loaf, and one real bad. The most important thing is that I now (might) have a "baseline" process that I can build on and optimize, that woorks for my conditions. (And that produces decent bread *grin*)

Leasons learned today;

#1 ) I will never again leave room for any doubt that the dough may stick to the couche. I'll smear, rub and sprinkle so much rice or rye flour on that cloth, that nothing will ever stick. I'm also keeping this cloth in a sealed box for later use.

Using plenty of flour in the proofing basket also has another benefit. The surface of the bread gets drier, and is easier to slice. Even Gilette Razor blades have problems with a wet dough.

#2 ) I now learn how much rise that is theoreticaly possible to get from my "standard recipe", and can see from my proofing box when it's time to move it into the oven.

Standard Recipe follows, as entered into my home made Online Baker's percentage calculator, comments on this is more than welcome! .-)

#3) "one day sourdough" is possible .-)

#4) The Kenwood Kitchen machine is suspended from it's duty when baking. A few folds and some stretches and lot's of rest is all that the dough needs.

Here you can see the two loaves for today. Both are made using the exact same recipe. The smallest and most compact (the bad), stuck to my couche and colapsed.

The other Im quite happy with. It's still hot so I can't' slice it yet .-)

Edited May 4, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[Desiderio]

Great post , and finally some pics

Well the difference between them its enormous, incredible.

i still have problems with the dough getting stuck to my cloth I think I need to get some rice flour but I didnt see it around at the store , maybe specialized ones?

And I cant get my routin squared away because everytime I bake its in the middle of the night then I go sleep for a while then up and sometimes I leave the dought there longer than what it should without folding it .So when I go back to the final step the dough either stuck to the cloth or I have hard time do the transfer form the sheet to the stone in the oven , last time they stcuk to the baking sheet where I put them for the final proof, I dont know how to do with the bannetons (sp )I mean after you shape them then put them in the bannetons or else and the move them to the oven , how you do that ?

Hehe well I guess need more time to figure that out.

thank you again for the great post ))