Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 1)

[glennbech]

Oh Glenn...what a beautiful crust and crumb! You're becoming quite the master

Thank you :-) I've got so much to learn, but a lifetime to practice :-) Isn't that great ?!

What I am very happy with, is that I now have a process that I know will produce decent bread! (And that fits my schedule) If my starter puffs up to double size overnight, I know that everything will be allright. And that is a big relief.

[cajungirl]

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What I am very happy with, is that I now have a process that I know will produce decent bread! (And that fits my schedule)  If my starter puffs up to double size overnight, I know that everything will be allright. And that is a big relief.

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I think thats wonderful

Last week I thought I was able to resurrect my 3 year old starter (from the freezer), but it failed to become robust, so I had a small funeral (te he) and sent it down the drain. I'm still experimenting with part of my starter to get it a little sourer, but the one I've been using is so active and happy that I've been using and getting great results. Unfortunately, I'm just so tired when I get home from work that I practice my skills only on the weekends. And I'm getting old, so if I don't write it down, I forget what I tried on the previous weekend

I'm considering trying to make a new starter as outlined by Peter Reinhardt in "The Bread Baker's Apprentice". We'll see. If I don't do it this weekend, though I will for sure do it eventually.

[glennbech]

I've done a little experiments on sourdough sponge timing. I don't want to recite everthing here, but I was kind of hoping we could have a discussion on it anyway..

I've blogged it at http://www.glennbech.com/2006/06/timing-so...ugh-sponge.html

Here is the The executive summary, since you're all important people and have limited time :-)

I made two starters, A&B, where both contains water at 23c and 150g flour/150g water. A Contains 18g inactive sourdough starter from the fridge, B contains 36g.

The starters were put under my proofing lamp for a constant 28c temperature.

I have photos for all 12 samples in my blog entry along with a table showing elapsed time and volume.

What I wanted to find out was two things ;

1) What are the "lifecycle" of the sponge. How much time goes by before "something starts to happen". When does it peak ? Etc.

The reason why I want to find this out is that I usually have a sponge going when I sleep, or I am at work. I can't watch it all the time (without a webcam that is, great idea!) :-)

2) How does the amount of inactive starter included into you sponge affect it's speed.

http://www.glennbech.com/uploaded_images/graph.gif

I some questions regarding my little experiment

1) When to bake. I assume the peaks are good alternatives ? What are the effects of baking at the different stages? I know that baking with an inactive sponge is disasterous .-) Been there done that

2) Both my starters first increases in size, stops up, falls down a bit, and then "Puffs up" with lits of foam. Can anyone explain to me the chemistry/biology of this? Is this the east taking over ?

3) Are my findings representable for other starters than mine ?

Edited June 3, 2006 by glennbech (log)

[glennbech]

Short update; I replicated my experiment, using 18g of starter to 150g flour/150g water. Again, after 10 hours, it "puffed up" to a second peak. The preferment has a very strong rising capability. The smell of the dough during bulk was a bit "yeasty", and a bit different from my other bread.

This is a classic White leaven bread recipe, with some durum wheat and wholemeal rye added for taste.

I gave it 4 hours worth of bulk fermentation with regular kneadings, retardation in the fridge. I took the dough out of the fridge, shaped and gave it 2-3 hous of proofing in a basket, I was concerned about over-proofing since it was growing fast, that's why I didn't go all the 4,5 hours with proofing.

I'll post crumb pictures as soon as I "open it up" .-) Me and my wife just finished all of the little loaf for dinner .-) Amazing bread!

[DocDougherty]

Well, I have finally worked my way through this thread from the beginning so I wouldn't be too redundant in my questions or suggestions, but I now have a thought experiment for whoever takes it on:

When you retard an active dough, the temperature drops and the rate of proofing goes down, but I think it is for two reasons, not just the reduction in the metabolic rate of the yeast and LAB - but as the temp drops the solubility of CO2 goes up, so some of the gas being produced is absorbed by the liquid in the dough and does not contribute to the rise. When you take it out of the refrigerator and bring it back up to "room temp" the CO2 stays in solution and the additional proofing is a result of warming up the gas trapped in the existing bubbles (plus a little new produced gas).

When you put this loaf into the hot oven, what happens to the dissolved CO2?

Does it contribute to the oven spring?

Is it the source of the surface blistering of retarded dough? (I think yes, but can't figure out how to instrument it to prove it.)

Or does it just diffuse out during baking?

Am I making something out of nothing? I have not found this topic discussed in any of the sourdough forum posts I have read and would be interested in your collective opinions.

Doc

Edited June 29, 2006 by DocDougherty (log)

[rooftop1000]

So....When the dough crawls out of the loaf pan, wraps its tendrils around your baking stone, and tries to drag it into the other room, its obvious you shouldn't leave it to rise for the entire length of Pirates of the Caribbean and dinner out.

damn damn damn the dough looked meaner than the Kraken from the movie.

tracey

Edited July 11, 2006 by rooftop1000 (log)

[Desiderio]

I have to keep that in mind , cause I tend to that kind of stuff!

[butterscotch]

Hmmm, I've had this grape starter recipe for a while and never tried it, now y'all have me thinking....

The easy grape starter is this: get some red grapes from the market. Put them into a large plastic or glass (preferred) container, smash them slightly, add equal amounts of flour and water mixed together (I do a pint of each) and cover the container. Do not look inside and especially do not sniff the contents for a week.

After the week is up, strain the liquid through a sieve to remove all the grape skins and seeds. Use a cup of starter as a cup of liquid ingredients in your bread recipe and replace that cup with half a cup of water and half a cup of flour. That's how you keep a starter going, you feed it.

If a starter starts to smell bad, it is bad. Discard it quickly, because you won't like either the bread it makes or what it eventually mutates into.

About two and a half to three years ago I created a starter using the "grapes" method.  Can't remember which of my books I took it from, but it was a grand experiment for me.  The starter was tangy and flavorful.  I froze some of it and last night while searching for something else I found the starter.  I was sure that it had been frozen too long to be revived.  I let it defrost, put it in a jar and fed it, left it out on the counter, about 60F and this morning there was definite activity.  I almost feel like I gave birth...and I guess in a way I did 

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[cajungirl]

Hmmm, I've had this grape starter recipe for a while and never tried it, now y'all have me thinking....

The easy grape starter is this: get some red grapes from the market. Put them into a large plastic or glass (preferred) container, smash them slightly, add equal amounts of flour and water mixed together (I do a pint of each) and cover the container. Do not look inside and especially do not sniff the contents for a week.

After the week is up, strain the liquid through a sieve to remove all the grape skins and seeds. Use a cup of starter as a cup of liquid ingredients in your bread recipe and replace that cup with half a cup of water and half a cup of flour. That's how you keep a starter going, you feed it.

If a starter starts to smell bad, it is bad. Discard it quickly, because you won't like either the bread it makes or what it eventually mutates into.

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A word of caution!!! Be sure to use only organic grapes. You wouldn't want to put pesticides in your bread

[DocDougherty]

Hmmm, I've had this grape starter recipe for a while and never tried it, now y'all have me thinking....

The easy grape starter is this: get some red grapes from the market. Put them into a large plastic or glass (preferred) container, smash them slightly, add equal amounts of flour and water mixed together (I do a pint of each) and cover the container. Do not look inside and especially do not sniff the contents for a week.

After the week is up, strain the liquid through a sieve to remove all the grape skins and seeds. Use a cup of starter as a cup of liquid ingredients in your bread recipe and replace that cup with half a cup of water and half a cup of flour. That's how you keep a starter going, you feed it.

If a starter starts to smell bad, it is bad. Discard it quickly, because you won't like either the bread it makes or what it eventually mutates into.

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A much easier and much more reliable way to do it is to just buy one that sounds good from

Sourdo.com

I have had two from Ed and a number that I started from scratch.

I still use his SF every week and it performs well, even here in SoCal.

Doc

[phlawless]

I have been having issues with my sourdough lately. Though the flavor is fantastic, but I am getting a really dense crumb, and I am not sure why.

my checklist so far:

-health of starter: very vibrant and active, no off flavor or odor, dough rises beautifully

-kneading: I am using the mixer for the first 5-8 minutes then finishing by hand for the last 8-10

-rising time: all of the breads I do with this starter rise a minimum of 22 hours. Assemble dough,

till doubled, punch down chill, pull from fridge and rise again, bench, shape, then finally bake

-oven temp: I usually heat my oven to 500 one hour before, then once dough goes in I turn down

to 425

-steam: this is the only area where I am a bit iffy. I have been spritzing the oven before the dough

goes in, then keeping the door shut for the first 20 minutes.

Would steam (too little, too much, too late, too early?) cause this density problem?

Edited July 20, 2006 by phlawless (log)

[glennbech]

How is you oven spring? What is your baking surface? What kind of hydration levels are you using ?

Have you had big fluffy loaves until recently, and now something suddenly happened? Using the same process and same ingredients ?

Looking at the bottom of your loaf, I see a lot of compressed cells, In my loaves the cells are usually largest at the bottom. This makes me think of

a few things ;

1) Over-proofing

2) Heavy loaves? Did you change the weight of your recipe?

3) Do you bake in the top racks of your oven?

[phlawless]

My oven spring isn't too great. I have never had big fluffy loaves, but they have always been much better than this. Sometimes I bake on tiles, sometimes on pans, these were done on pans. I bake on the lower third of this oven which I haven't done a lot of bread in. My recipe hasn't changed at all. Hydration levels, not really sure.

[glennbech]

By Hydration levels, I mean the amount of water in your dough. So If your recipe hasn't changed this hasn't changed either.

After you shape your loaves, how much time do they get to rise? And how do you rise them?

My initial though Is also that 22 hours of initial dough fermentation is a bit "over the top". I havn't heard about any method with more than 4-5 hours of initial rise/bulk fermentation. (That's dan Lepard's white leaven bread that takes 8 hours from dough assembly to bake. Having a fully activated starter, and about 20-30% of all the flour in the starter.) However; Im not sure how this may affect your results.....

[shacke]

I had similar problems in the past and here is my take. Sounds like underfermentation.

22 hours for a rise is overly excessive and sounds like you may have a temperature or starter issue. Is your starter truly primed and ready? (meaning it doubles in 4 hours after a feed)? Are you feeding it 4 hours ahead before mixing your dough to give it maiximum leavening power? the longer ytou wait, the more tasty acid you get at the expense of rising potential. What is your fermentation temperature? If your dough is not doubling in a few hours at a temp in the 80 range, that can also be a culprit. I read a million times that bread is all about time and temperature but until I personally heeded the call, my sourdough looked like that. tasty but dense.

to sum up my suspects: starter not active enough and/or temperature too low.

Good luck! You see that sourdough takes no prisoners. It is a trick balancing leavening power with sourness.

Evan

[phlawless]

I think you may be right about being over proofed. It's not quite doubling, and that's why I let it go longer. My temp is a bit cooler, around 76-78.

[shacke]

I think you may be right about being over proofed. It's not quite doubling, and that's why I let it go longer. My temp is a bit cooler, around 76-78.

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Actually that's underfermented if it is taking too long. With that temperature of the room (and dough hopefully - another variable if dough is too cool), your starter is likely the culprit.

Feed it 2x to get it revved up, making sure it double in between feeds within 4 hours. 4 hours before mixing your dough, feed it again.

With a room temp and dough temp in the 76-78 range, you should see a more reasonable time of fermentation and a better crumb inside. Realize again that the acid levels will be lower and so taste will differ. The more acid, the less leavening power. Old starters smell really strong but will raise nothing. Superfresh starter is the opposite. The ying/yang is the fun part of experimentation. People go nuts figuring out the "sweet spots" of their starters. Some people add sour salt to boost taste but I don't like it.

As noted above also, oven spring from a very hot baking surface will help your cause also.

Another thing in re-reading your initial post. The sequence is a bit avant garde. I wouldn't choose to chill between primary fermentation and shaping. Try to ferment your dough, shape, proof and bake. If you need to break up the process, I would chill it after shaping and let it proof overnight while in the fridge. You will get some action while it cools. the next day, take it out, bake it. I used to let it warm up before baking but was told in a great bread book by Jeffrey Hamelman that this is not necessary and so I now will bake em cold and it works fine. If I were you, I would get your bake done in 1 day to remove all variables of temperature swings and see how it works.

Lemme know how you make out...

Evan

Edited July 20, 2006 by shacke (log)

[phlawless]

so a schedule could go something like this:

1st feeding: 6 a.m.

2nd: 10 a.m.

mix dough: 2 p.m.

bake bread: 7-8 p.m.

do you think that's long enough of a rise for the dough?

[shacke]

so a schedule could go something like this:

1st feeding: 6 a.m.

2nd: 10 a.m.

mix dough: 2 p.m.

bake bread: 7-8 p.m.

do you think that's long enough of a rise for the dough?

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Depending on if you are a morning person or not you can simplify and still get good results I think by feeding your starter before you go to bed, getting up and feeding again and if it doubles or more after 4 hours, then go ahead and use it in your dough. I try and be practical and make the schedule fit me and not the bread when possible if it's not critical I am not that obsessive.

I would try to be sure also that your prefeeds are done on a lively starter. Typically, it will take about 3 feeds to get a dormant but healthy starter from the fridge up to speed again for baking. If you keep it on the counter and feed it regularly, this is not an issue. If it is in the fridge most of it's life, then take it out feed it 2x a day (I keep mine liquid with 1:1 water:flour ratio or 100% hydration) for a couple of days to "charge" it.

So first get a healthy starter that will double or more in 4 hours (and you will know when you have it!), give it a feed the night before, again in the morning and make up your dough 4 hours later. This keeps you from getting up with the cows. At a dough temp of 76-78 and room temp the same, expect 4 hours or so to ferment but look at it too and use your eyes to judge as well. This takes some practice.

Shape and proof (likely another 2-3 hours but eyeball it - depends on temperature here knowing you have a good starter) and bake on hot surface with steam. As far as steam, the moisture allows greater volume before crust sets. I toss a cup of boiling water in a pan at the bottom of the oven as I load the bread. Shut the door. Some people spritz more after that , some spritz the bread. I don't. I keep the door shut to keep the steam in.

good luck. I am curious to see if this helps you.

Evan

Edited July 20, 2006 by shacke (log)

[phlawless]

thanks, evan...i'm going to give it a try tomorrow.

[Bill44]

thanks, evan...i'm going to give it a try tomorrow.

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One glance at the loaf tells me it is overproofed. Do not aim for doubling in size. With your first fermentation you only need to establish a good network of tiny gas cells for the dough to be ready for shaping. After about 3 hours slash the dough and see if you have a good network of tiny gas bubbles, if so the dough is ready for shaping, if not try again in an hour.

Give the dough a gentle folding knead, without tearing the surface, for about a minute, then shape your loaf.

The next stage is the hardest part of sourdough baking to learn, when to bake. Experience will tell you, but for a guide just proof to the point where the loaf only barely springs back when you poke it gently with your finger. Remember it is far better to bake underproofed than overproofed.

[cajungirl]

Some people add sour salt to boost taste but I don't like it.

Evan

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Hi Evan, What is "sour salt"? I've never heard of it

[shacke]

Some people add sour salt to boost taste but I don't like it.

Evan

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Hi Evan, What is "sour salt"? I've never heard of it

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Citric acid.

[cognitivefun]

thanks, evan...i'm going to give it a try tomorrow.

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The next stage is the hardest part of sourdough baking to learn, when to bake. Experience will tell you, but for a guide just proof to the point where the loaf only barely springs back when you poke it gently with your finger. Remember it is far better to bake underproofed than overproofed.

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Why is it better to underproof than overproof, Bill?

[Bill44]

Why is it better to underproof than overproof, Bill?

A moderatly underproofed loaf will still rise and give good oven spring and quite a good crumb. An overproofed loaf is as seen in the picture already posted where the gas cell walls are weakened to the point where they can't support the weight of the dough and collapse, and the crumb becomes dense and rubbery. A very overproofed loaf turns into a gooey blob and bakes like a brick.

Perfect proofing is the balance point at which the maximum amount of gas has been produced (through dough fermentation) without the gluten structure being weakened by overfermentation.